13 replies to this topic

[Quest]

I hope this hasn't already been done.

Bond in the novels went from the navy right into Intelligence service. Why? Because he felt that was what he was good at. Obviously, he didn't really think he'd be a good husband and father. He wasn't forced into the spy biz (and remember, Fleming wrote these novels as his escape from settling down - so that adds another layer of "Bond alone").

My (windy) point is, when you watch Connery as Bond, you really BELIEVE that here's a guy that loved to dally with women, drink & eat the finest, etc. but only as a 'salve' to comfort his hard life. But he's chosen this life. Connery, IMO is the only actor to really make that "man that has chosen such a lonely life" real. You buy a guy like him WOULD do this for a living and enjoy it.

George, Roger and Pierce just seem way too nice and even loving to be such lone wolves. Make any sense? Roger's Bond seems so friendly and sweet, as does GL and Pierce. These chaps look like golf pros who go happily home to their families (well, they may have a few girls on the side, but you know what I mean). That's why when they're all tough, it's tough to buy sometimes, particularly with RM & PB.

Tim also didn't quite sell the lone wolf aspect either. He tried to make him all tortured about his job (fire me? Thank him), but that brings in a whole new thing. That he doesn't like the life he's chosen. Then why not quit?

Only Connery's Bond seems content (and believable) as a man who would choose this profession.

Time'll tell on DC. Right now he looks hard and tough, but he's going to be very sensitive and 'young' in this, too.

What does everyone think?

[iexpectu2die]

I agree very much, and I think you show some excellent insight into the character. Many see Brosnan or Dalton's dark moments as "Bondian", but there is more to Bond than 'a few dark moments", and as you say, Connery conveyed the personna as a whole probably best.

I do hope Craig will do this aswell, I think one of the reasons I like the look of his Bond so much is that I get that vibe already. In CR, Bond evolves, and if this film really is 'back to basics', he will evolve into the right James Bond.

[Quest]

Thanks 'iexpectu2die'

I always thought to JB as sort of a shark in a world of fish. A man who couldn't just settle down in an office, a family, etc. He moved through life.

Here's a guy who's appetites for life, ala Fleming, are huge. The spy world is ugly, unsafe, etc. but it's what he's good at and he still has time to enjoy his appetites for danger & challenge, womanizing, traveling, etc. without a family to worry about.

It always mystified me where this part of character went when they were re-casting the part.

A guy that was so dangerous, that any minute he could turn and break your back (Connery did that scene in HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER - it was very cool - and would've made a great scene for him as Bond). Can't really see any of the other guys doing that (even GL, who was big and physical looking always seemed so genuinely kind and gentle. It just seemed forced somehow.

[Thunderfinger]

The only one who seemed genuinely kind and gentle to me, was Dalton.
Moore had plenty of charm, but was hardly a gentle person.
Brosnan lacked both.

Lazenby seemed a little lost and insecure under that tough exterior.
But I agree about Connery. Good point.

[Quest]

Thunderfinger,

Thanks.

What did you mean about RM? That he was a sneaky type guy? Like the scene in LALD where he sleeps with Rosie "before"?

Very interested to hear a different take on RM's Bond.

[Publius]

I agree, with the caveat that I didn't buy it with Connery either. He struck me as a womanizer who wanted to be a superhero, not someone who chose the lonely life of a government agent. Dalton always being on the brink of quitting may have still been a stretch, but other than that I fully believe he could have chosen that life. The others are all far worse than both. It'd be refreshing if Craig is convincing in this regard.

[Quest]

Interesting post, Publius.

"..the lonely life of a government agent" vs. a "superhero"

This is where reality rears it's ugly head. In Fleming's world, Bond isn't really a "government agent" - he's James Bond, who is sort of a fantasty figure.

I mean, I would guess government agents don't look special, don't drive fancy cars, tuxes, etc. - they're generic looking chaps so they don't attract attention.

In that world, where a spy can lead the life of James Bond, that's what I mean. And that's where Connery shines.

Even Dalton, who's take on the character is very interesting, seems too kind of Kara to be a ruthless agent who has no one special in his life. When he's assasinating John Rhys-Davis (sp?), look how jumpy he is. This job just seems too upsetting to him and it shows.

[Publius]

This is where reality rears it's ugly head. In Fleming's world, Bond isn't really a "government agent" - he's James Bond, who is sort of a fantasty figure.

Sort of a fantasy figure? Sure. But as you said, he's also a "lone wolf" who has chosen a "lonely life". In that regard, Connery is hard to believe. He's too colorful, too happy, too much of a womanizer, and heck, even too cool, and gets to go on epic globetrotting adventures. If that's a "lonely life", I think I speak for most men when I say "sign me up!"

Even Dalton, who's take on the character is very interesting, seems too kind of Kara to be a ruthless agent who has no one special in his life. When he's assasinating John Rhys-Davis (sp?), look how jumpy he is. This job just seems too upsetting to him and it shows.

In TLD, he is very kind. Only Moore in FYEO truly compares. But I write that off to (1) Dalton's Bond needing information and (2) honestly having a believable romance with Kara. If we're going to talk Fleming, it's all there, minus the internal monlogues about how women are so fickle and whatnot.

As for the interrogation scene, I don't know which one you're watching, 'cause I see a calm, cold, efficient, but visibly angry Bond grilling Pushkin, ripping the clothes off his woman, and pistol-whipping a guard. Dalton was very intense and no-nonsense there, and it was one of the only times I've ever really believed Bond might kill someone he had a gun pointed at if things went wrong. Needless to say, he nailed it.

And then there's LTK, where Dalton is as far as Bond has ever gotten from sweet and cuddly, possibly save Dr. No. So, yeah, he still takes the cake in this department.

[Quest]

Publius writes:
Sort of a fantasy figure? Sure. But as you said, he's also a "lone wolf" who has chosen a "lonely life". In that regard, Connery is hard to believe. He's too colorful, too happy, too much of a womanizer, and heck, even too cool, and gets to go on epic globetrotting adventures. If that's a "lonely life", I think I speak for most men when I say "sign me up!"


Still laughing, P!


Publius writes (editted):
As for the interrogation scene, I don't know which one you're watching, 'cause I see a calm, cold, efficient, but visibly angry Bond grilling Pushkin, ripping the clothes off his woman, and pistol-whipping a guard. Dalton was very intense and no-nonsense there, and it was one of the only times I've ever really believed Bond might kill someone he had a gun pointed at if things went wrong. Needless to say, he nailed it.

And then there's LTK, where Dalton is as far as Bond has ever gotten from sweet and cuddly, possibly save Dr. No. So, yeah, he still takes the cake in this department.


You make great points, P. He does seem much more like a real spy than Connery here. But he doesn't seem like the cinematic James Bond. Make sense? Watch how Connery plays the Professor Dent scene. Just another day at the office here. Totally cool. Then watch how Dalton keeps frantically whipping his gun around to cover the girl then Pushkin. He seems very upset. Almost distraught at the thought of doing this. He's super angry, yes - but why? This is his job and he should be cool about it. If this gets him so upset, he should seek other work - which was my point. Does Dalton seem 'happy and content' being James Bond? No.

Only Connery seemed happy in that skin.

But to your points, Dalton was trying to 'act' and bring more to the role that years of RM had taken the edge to the point of roundness. And he did success masterfully at this.

But my point way back was, who seems 'content' in the JB world.

Thanks for your great stuff!

[00Twelve]

Not to "blaspheme" Connery, but you're right, Quest, he did seem more content with his station in life. But the beautiful thing about Dalton's portrayal is that if you read Fleming, Bond was frequently tortured about his profession, and pondered resigning several times. If you read CR, this is most apparent, other than the obvious later days after he lost Tracy. Bond knows what he's doing in this job, and he does a service to his country, and that's why he stays. It's not for the comforts of the job. And he is frequently discontent with, sometimes even hating, his job. There is conflict there.

Sorry, just wanted to defend the method in Dalton's madness. He was the most well-read Bond actor in terms of Fleming, and he's as accomplished an actor as has ever graced the role, so it's no shock that he went after the grim realities of the original James Bond.

Edited by 00Twelve, 18 October 2006 - 05:25 PM.

[Publius]

You make great points, P. He does seem much more like a real spy than Connery here. But he doesn't seem like the cinematic James Bond. Make sense? Watch how Connery plays the Professor Dent scene. Just another day at the office here. Totally cool.

True. But aside from Dr. No, I still don't see the "lone wolf" in Connery. Yes, the quintessential cool of the cinematic Bond, the very reason Connery is my second favorite and almost my first, but not someone who has chosen a lonely life, or could even truly lead one. Connery comes across as too charismatic to me to believably live a life distant from people and devoid of a social network. He strikes me as too much of a people person, and that more than anything could be what makes me give the believably independent Dalton the edge in my ranking of the actors.

Then watch how Dalton keeps frantically whipping his gun around to cover the girl then Pushkin. He seems very upset. Almost distraught at the thought of doing this. He's super angry, yes - but why? This is his job and he should be cool about it. If this gets him so upset, he should seek other work - which was my point. Does Dalton seem 'happy and content' being James Bond? No.

He doesn't seem frantic at all to me, just pissed. And why? Because TLD had one hell of a confusing plot! Seriously, he has no idea what's going on, what with agents from all sides flying around and some of his own turning up dead, and he's frankly just tired of playing someone else's game. Seems like a good enough reason to be angry, but I think Dalton also made sure to mostly keep his cool, and that's what made it work. That's how it comes across to me, anyway.

I suppose it all boils down to this for me: if I had to guess why Dalton's Bond chose his life, I'd say it was because it was what he was good at. If I had to say why Connery's Bond chose it post-Dr. No, or why Moore's Bond chose it at all, I'd say it was because they enjoyed the high-flying antics that come with it. But that begs two questions for me which partially affect my preferences for the actors and their movies: how the hell did they even know about it, and who wouldn't want that job?

[Quest]

Not to "blaspheme" Connery, but you're right, Quest, he did seem more content with his station in life. But the beautiful thing about Dalton's portrayal is that if you read Fleming, Bond was frequently tortured about his profession, and pondered resigning several times. If you read CR, this is most apparent, other than the obvious later days after he lost Tracy. Bond knows what he's doing in this job, and he does a service to his country, and that's why he stays. It's not for the comforts of the job. And he is frequently discontent, sometimes even hating, his job. There is conflict there.

Sorry, just wanted to defend the method in Dalton's madness. He was the most well-read Bond actor in terms of Fleming, and he's as accomplished an actor as has ever graced the role, so it's no shock that he went after the grim realities of the original James Bond.

You and Publius are 100% correct. TD did a marvelous job of bring that part of Fleming's Bond to the part. And it was particularly refreshing for folks like me who had read all the books, saw all of Connery's pics and had to listen to "wasn't that hilarious when Jaws flaps his wings in the air" type-comments during the 70s and early 80s. He's my second fav Bond, by far.

But he chose to really push the "I hate this job - I hate this profession!" attitude a lot harder. It was almost the biggest part of his JB personality. You and Publius are correct, that part was there in Fleming's books. Bond did have these moments. But he was also resigned to the fact that he would always be "On Her Majesty's Secret Service", too - and enjoyed a lot of it (or was much more content at times with it). TD didn't give us much of that.

If he had, I think the public would've embraced him more. Given us some moments of "it's GREAT to be Bond!" (Connery in Miami hotel in GF) mixed in with the angst - and you'd have had a magic recipe - and maybe 5 TD Bond flicks? Who knows.

Thanks!

[Publius]

But he chose to really push the "I hate this job - I hate this profession!" attitude a lot harder. It was almost the biggest part of his JB personality. You and Publius are correct, that part was there in Fleming's books. Bond did have these moments. But he was also resigned to the fact that he would always be "On Her Majesty's Secret Service", too - and enjoyed a lot of it (or was much more content at times with it). TD didn't give us much of that.

If he had, I think the public would've embraced him more. Given us some moments of "it's GREAT to be Bond!" (Connery in Miami hotel in GF) mixed in with the angst - and you'd have had a magic recipe - and maybe 5 TD Bond flicks? Who knows.

Agreed. I wish Dalton had had a third, and that it was less heavy without being silly. I think he had it in him; heck, my favorite "it's great to be Bond" moment (you should patent that!) is actually the aftermath of the escape from the WaveKrest in LTK, when Bond has millions of dollars in cash whipping his face as he gains control of the seaplane, and as he flies away he grabs a fistful and laughs, relishing in his newfound fortune. Dalton nailed both the humanity of Bond and the triumphant heroicness perfectly in that one scene. Truly masterful on his part.

Edited by Publius, 18 October 2006 - 05:24 PM.

[Quest]

Publius writes (edit):

(Connery) strikes me as too much of a people person, and that more than anything could be what makes me give the believably independent Dalton the edge in my ranking of the actors.


That is a very good point, Pub. Look how happy SC is to see Felix in Miami. Seems like a great guy/friend to hang out with, drink, play golf, etc. Dalton doesn't look so social. I see your point.


Pub writes (edit):
He doesn't seem frantic at all to me, just pissed. And why? Because TLD had one hell of a confusing plot!


Again, still laughing!


Pub writes: (edit):I suppose it all boils down to this for me: if I had to guess why Dalton's Bond chose his life, I'd say it was because it was what he was good at. If I had to say why Connery's Bond chose it post-Dr. No, or why Moore's Bond chose it at all, I'd say it was because they enjoyed the high-flying antics that come with it. But that begs two questions for me which partially affect my preferences for the actors and their movies: how the hell did they even know about it, and who wouldn't want that job?


"High flying antics". It's a pleasure to read your posts, Publius! Funny and informative. And I totally see your point on TD. He still looks a little too upset all the time for me. Almost a knee-jerk reaction to RM. You can almost see him thinking "Roger make a mockery of this role by being charming and silly - well not THIS one, boy!" If he just mixed in a little of the "it's good to be Bond"....but you did a marvelous job defending your position!