33 replies to this topic

[Vanish]

Inspired by the "Which Is Worse: TWINE or DAD?" thread, this time tackling Roger Moore's first two much-maligned Bond films. I understand that Live and Let Die enjoys a pretty healthy following on CBn, so I'm curious how the forum feels these two stack up against eachother. As it stands, they seem to be knocked in many other circles these days.

Both feature the... um, blessing of Sheriff JW Pepper.
Both were directed by Guy Hamilton.
Both were written (well, almost in regards to TMWTGG) by Tom Mankiewicz.

I'll post my thoughts later on...

Go!

Edited by Vanish, 08 June 2006 - 01:43 AM.

[Andrew]

I enjoy both of them. Two very underrated entries.

[K1Bond007]

I'm sure a lot of people will say The Man with the Golden Gun, but honestly, I've never had a problem with it. I've always liked it. Live and Let Die on the other hand I was never a fan of until recently. It's one of those for me that the older I got the more I appreciated, while others such as Moonraker: the older I got the more I disliked it.

Still.. I suppose as far as my list goes, I'd have to go with Live and Let Die as being the worse. If you ask me again in a couple years, I may flip. Both are pretty middle of the road for me and both have a good amount of cringe-worthy scenes, although for me Golden Gun is just more of a fun film with Christopher Lee which is a bonus over Yaphet Kotto.

[Qwerty]

Of the two,m Live And Let Die. However, I thoroughly enjoy both of them.

Live And Let Die is a good James Bond film on pretty much all merits. It's just not one that has enough spectacle, or plot, or whatever else, to make it count in my top five for instance. I'm sure it floats around near the #10 borderline often though. With Live And Let Die, we get a very solid performance from Roger Moore as James Bond. It's his opening film, and it's very much like Dr. No in a way -- opening films for the two best Bond's (in my opinion), and both are solid flicks for both of them.

Live And Let Die does have some very good, and very underrated villains in it though. I always look at the villains as being alongside, with the main star in James Bond, to be the most important aspect of the film. The villains provide the mission for Bond (often enough) and need to be a good challenge. I liked Yaphet Kotto's quiet menace against Moore's Bond, and Tee Hee proves to be a well used henchman who doesn't get too comical that he becomes unbelievable. I liked Jane Seymour's Solitaire as well - nothing brilliant, but a very good Bond girl.

The locations are fair, Harlem looks...well like some of the tougher parts of New York, it's expected. The plot in this film, I thought, could have been fleshed out more and perhaps better explained or further crafted in the screenplay, but it is serviceable.

On the whole, a solid film.

[Harmsway]

LIVE AND LET DIE isn't really too bad, but THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN is great fun. Christopher Lee's presence alone gives it a special place for me.

[DanMan]

Love them both. Roger's first two are his two best IMO.

[Righty007]

You all know which one I prefer.

[KissKissBangBang]

In my opinion, the better of the two films has to be THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN. I admit, they both have their fair share of cringe worthy scenes but TMWTGG has a higher production value, more exotic locations, more signature James Bond moments and more memorable scenes. LALD looks and feels like it had a low budget and is missing the grand spectacle of previous films. The script and dialogue is too self-conscious, with the producers putting Roger Moore through all the prerequisite OO7isms.

This is the same situation as GoldenEye and Pierce Brosnan - trying too hard to look like Bond instead of becoming Bond (something that Timothy Dalton achieved with TLD.)

Part of the joy in watching TMWTGG is the fact that it isn't trying to take itself too seriously. It has a more relaxed feel yet it has more than enough original and interesting twists to keep you interested.

[The Richmond Spy]

Inspired by the "Which Is Worse: TWINE or DAD?" thread, this time tackling Roger Moore's first two much-maligned Bond films. I understand that Live and Let Die enjoys a pretty healthy following on CBn, so I'm curious how the forum feels these two stack up against eachother. As it stands, they seem to be knocked in many other circles these days.

Why not add a YOLT vs. DAF thread here in a few days to finish it off?

As for this one, I have to go with TMWTGG as being superior. It is so much more fun to watch and as a result I have seen it many times whereas LALD I have seen only a few times. I should probably watch LALD again soon, but TMWTGG does it for me!

[Tarl_Cabot]

I love them both too...More so than Roger's "good" outings...I think Roger nails Bond in TMWTGG and we have perhaps his greatest adversary ever.

[Harmsway]

I love them both too...More so than Roger's "good" outings...I think Roger nails Bond in TMWTGG and we have perhaps his greatest adversary ever.

Personally, I think Moore's best outings are his first four. I think these first four films are the ones where Moore really shines, and these first four films had a vibrancy and energy to them that was lost from then onwards.

His portrayal in the first two films though has a shocking dark side. I think he's his best in them - cruel at times, cool at others, but not as much the cartoon Bond that he became from TSWLM onwards. I love him in both LALD and TMWTGG purely because he actually manages to be quite cool here by being so chillingly detached. "Don't go in there without a mongoose" - awesome.

What I particularly love about LIVE AND LET DIE is its atmosphere. George Martin's score as well as the Caribbean location with its voodoo vibe is just very, very unique.

[Diabolik]

Both were a whole lotta fun to me (and both better than TWINE and DAD) but I think LALD had more of a mystique to it with the Voodoo element (kind of like gold did for Goldfinger). I loved the ending with Baron Samadi on the front of the train laughing ghoulishly. And Jane Seymour can read my tarot cards anyday!

Unlike MWTGG, I thought J.W. Pepper worked in LALD (better than the hick cops in DAF. Speaking of DAF, wasn't J.W.'s fat police buddy who gets dumped in the water and throws his hat down on the ground in LALD also in DAF as one of the cops chasing Connery through the streets of Las Vegas??

Edited by Diabolik, 08 June 2006 - 04:58 AM.

[JimmyBond]

I like LALD ok enough but when placed up against TMWTGG (or any other Moore film for that matter) I'll always pick the other film. But in Gun's case, I actually enjoy the film. Barry's score does wonders for the film and it has one of the best car chases in the series.

[Publius]

I like both, but I prefer LALD.

I used to really dislike TMWTGG, but upon recent viewings, it has shot up over the Bond cartoons I will never warm up to, although it's still only middle-of-the-pack for me. I think what turned me off the first few times watching it was seeing a solid movie disintegrate into schizophrenic nonsense by the end. It doesn't know whether it wants to be dark or campy, whether it wants this plot or that, or whether it wants to be quality stuff or just painfully stupid. That erratic nature is still a major hurdle for me to overcome.

Granted, I love the darker elements (especially the first half or so), I think it's Rog at his best, it's got good locations and interesting scenery, and the girls are great. However, Christopher Lee just seems weird (like Chris Walken weird), the Solex stuff is poorly and unnecessarily tacked on to an otherwise wonderful premise (thereby unfortunately distracting from it), and things like an obnoxiously out of place J.W. (who does make a funny or two, admittedly, but is otherwise downright annoying) and the damned slide whistle only take me out of the experience. Plus, the title song is simply crap, and as such should belonged nowhere near the score.

LALD, on the other hand, for all its weaknesses (primarily an too much of both Pepper and the speedboat racing), is simply better. It's got English gentleman Roger Moore WAY out of his element, which makes for Moore's Bond at his most hysterical, the loveliest of Bond girls in Jane Seymour, a great cast of oddball henchmen (most of whom are not verifiably offed, one of my favorite Bond fun facts), and a fantastic main villain. And Paul freakin' McCartney does the great title song to boot. Then again, the actress who plays Rosie is worse than either Talisa Soto or Halle Berry, and the final battle between Bond and Kananga leaves a lot to be desired. Still, not enough it keep it from being one of my two Bond "guilty pleasures" (the other being TND).

On another note, a plus both of them shared is a great turn by Bernard Lee as M. In these two, he was the coolest he had been since Dr. No, and that's saying something. Great dynamic between him and Rog.

Both were a whole lotta fun to me (and both better than TWINE and DAD) but I think LALD had more of a mystique to it with the Voodoo element (kind of like gold did for Goldfinger). I loved the ending with Baron Samadi on the front of the train laughing ghoulishly. And Jane Seymour can read my tarot cards anyday!

Definitely agreed. Especially on that last part.

Edited by Publius, 08 June 2006 - 07:23 PM.

[Mister Asterix]

[mra]Roger

[Lounge Lizard]

Allow me to ramble on a bit and please don't expect a thorough conclusion, for I really can't choose between the two. They're both severely flawed 'middle-period' Bonds, that are nonetheless very entertaining for different reasons. To me, both films tap into the irony and sadism of Bond more than any of the later ones- with mixed results.

Moore is quite cold and cruel in both LALD and TMWTGG- and I suppose that's how most of us picture James Bond, yet Moore seems unrelaxed at times. To me, he seems less sure of his act in TMWTGG than he was in LALD, even relying on his characteristic saintly 'eyebrow dance' for some of the close-ups. He's nonchalant, cynical, sometimes even gruff- when he has to slap Andrea Anders around, he goes stiffly through the motions, betraying the director's voice.

TMWTGG also tests Moore's definite limits as an action hero. He more or less holds his own during the free-for-all in Saida's dressing room, but during the karate tournament, it's obvious that he has to cheat to save his bare skin- and so he does. Moore is only really comfortable in the quiet, romantic bits, flirting with Mary Goodnight and drily uttering remarks like 'You really have a magnificent abdomen', when kissing belly-dancer Saida's navel.

I've always been a sucker for the 'different' atmosphere in LALD; the Baron Samedi business may not have been PC, but it succeeded in being corny at the same time as being genuinely mysterious. A bit of Val Lewton creeping into Bond. I think it was a brilliant move to turn the wooden idol of the novel into a character which is, or maybe isn't, flesh and blood- without delving too deeply into metaphysics. The scenes with Tee Hee, Ol' Albert and the rest of the gang are just a hoot.

Both films are not nearly as badly directed as is generally assumed; while they lack the pop, glitz, zowie, etc. that Hamilton brought to Goldfinger, they move at a relaxed and assured pace. Hamilton's classical mise-en-scene in the PTS of TMWTGG is, to these eyes, proof of an understated craftsmanship that goes largely unappreciated- but perhaps that is the price one pays for being an understated craftsman.

Both LALD and TMWTGG have great villains, both being 'anti-Bonds', social competitors of roughly the same age, skills and interests. As Scaramanga, Christopher Lee is the most remarkable Bond villain of the pack. Lee, proud heir to Basil Rathbone and Vincent Price, carries the gravitas of his Dracula over to Scaramanga. Even when lying on a bed with his eyes closed, Lee exudes physical menace and authority. He acts and moves subtly, often with a faint smile on his face. He understands and appreciates the absurdity of his profession, which makes him genuinely scary. He and Bond share the same arrogant assurance that they'll survive. Scaramanga introduces himself to people in the same way as Bond (surname - christian name - surname), and at times, he even 'out-Bonds' Moore, exploiting one of the wittier one-liners in the movie ('He always did like that mausoleum- put him in it') to the full. The difference between hero and villain is that Scaramanga enjoys his killing, while Bond does it all in the line of duty. Lee's death scene is suitably operatic, yet it is an anti-climax because of a poor build-up.

The Bond girls in both films are gorgeous, but forgettable. In LALD, Solitaire's character is wired for laughs and sadism. TMWTGG is more 'honest' in its treatment of the Bond girls: they're there to be conquered by Bond, he's there to correct their mistakes. And oh my, the phetishism! While Saida is defined by her belly, Britt Ekland's Mary is mostly buttocks- she sticks them up to be pushed into the boot of Scaramanga's car, she manages to push buttons and levers with them, causing Scaramanga's island base to blow up. Maud Adams is at least afforded a whole body, a dash of evening dress elegance, and some sour dialogue.

In the music department, LALD is vastly superior. George Martin may have been more of an arranger than a composer, but his tunes are atmospheric and his pacing is impeccable. To me, the soundtrack album never grates. TMWTGG has some appropriate Barry cues, but it was really Moonraker that found him in top form. Lulu's title track is a misguided attempt to capitalize on the 'rock' angle of McCartney's 'LALD'; the Scottish swinger is hindered by obtrusive guitar riffs and inphantile lyrics, and she proves that 'belting' might be an art form after all.

As with TWINE vs. DAD, TMWTGG seems the lesser of the two because it takes its gags and motifs the farthest- but it's not necessarily worse for that.

And may I add that Hamilton's Diamonds Are Forever, though being just as flawed (or perhaps even more) as LALD and TMWTGG, never ceases to amuse me?

[iexpectu2die]

I'm surprised by the positivity towards TMWTGG here! Over at AJB it is quite unpopular, and I personally find it quite poor. Like the novel, it feels incomplete. Obviously Fleming couldn't properly finish the novel, but I think its flaws are very much exposed on screen. The characters are under-developed, the plot is uninteresting and the humour is, well, not particularly humerous. The two things I hate the most are the unneccesarry inclusion of Pepper again, and that god-awful sound effect accompanying the barrel-roll. It may have its charm, but If I could get rid of it, I would. And then of course, there is the Bumbling fool that is Mary Goodnight. Thank God for Maud Adams.

LALD is very unique, as mentioned in this thread, and it just feels so much more confident.
I would argue that TMWTGG is to LALD as TND is to GE.

[Loomis]

I love them both too...More so than Roger's "good" outings...I think Roger nails Bond in TMWTGG and we have perhaps his greatest adversary ever.

Personally, I think Moore's best outings are his first four. I think these first four films are the ones where Moore really shines, and these first four films had a vibrancy and energy to them that was lost from then onwards.

His portrayal in the first two films though has a shocking dark side. I think he's his best in them - cruel at times, cool at others, but not as much the cartoon Bond that he became from TSWLM onwards. I love him in both LALD and TMWTGG purely because he actually manages to be quite cool here by being so chillingly detached. "Don't go in there without a mongoose" - awesome.

What I particularly love about LIVE AND LET DIE is its atmosphere. George Martin's score as well as the Caribbean location with its voodoo vibe is just very, very unique.

I think - hope - that Craig's performance in CASINO ROYALE will carry strong echoes of Moore's in his first two. Or perhaps I'm just getting carried away by the blonde hair connection. Seriously, though, like Moore was, Craig's a real visual break with his predecessors, with a very different take on the Bond role, cruel and cool, and very English (and a hairless chest to boot ).

Back OT, I find THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN far superior to LIVE AND LET DIE in every department (with the possible exception of the title song department - McCartney's song is infinitely better than Lulu's): better score, better villains, more attractive women, better production values (TMWTGG is hardly the most lavish of the Bond flicks, but LALD looks really cheap and bargain basement - just check out the San Monique cemetery set, with that awful plastic snake), a more interesting plot.... and, above all, a truly wonderful "travelogue" feel, making perhaps the best use of exotic locations of the entire series.

Both films score really highly in terms of "the element of the bizarre", and there's a lot more "Fleming" in them than you might think.

[Jaws0178]

Can somebody a bloody link to this mysterious AJB I keep hearing about!!!! As to the topic, I'm inclined to agree that TMWTGG is superior.

[Tiin007]

LALD is one of my least favorite Bond films. I find it quite boring and, like others here have mentioned, it lacked the spectacle that is expected from a Bond film. Also as already mentioned, it does look really cheap.
TMWTGG, while not one of my favorites, is still a solid film and is far superior to LALD on almost every level.

[DaveBond21]

The most amazing thing about these kind of topics, is that we are all Bond fans, yet we all love the movies for very different reasons. There are fans of every movie and every movie has its detractors too.

To me, the early 70s had three of the worst Bond films in DAF, LALD and TMWTGG.

I enjoy them still, but of the two mentioned here, when I think of those films, I always think of the negative things about them:-

LALD - M visits Bond at home (is this likely?), no Q, quiet wimpy Bond girl, Sherriff Pepper, getting in the plane with the old woman.

Just listing these things makes it sound like a strange 70's campy road movie comedy - not what Bond is about in my opinion.



TMWTGG - Nick-Nack, the slide-whistle on the car jump, the Sheriff again!!:-(, Bond is saved by karate schoolgirls, Goodnight, M is really angry in this one, Not much of a mission - and Scaramanga is not really doing anything wrong by looking into new ways of supplying energy. His death is a little harsh, he wasn't really hurting anyone on his island, apart from Anders.

[Double-0-Seven]

I enjoy both films. They are both neither the best nor the worst movies in the Bond series.

Live and Let Die is a great film. I find it highly enjoyable and Roger Moore delivers a great performance as Bond. It's got some great action scenes, and I also like the breifing scene how M actually comes to Bond's house to give him the details of the mission. The climax probably could have been better and more realistic but I think the rest of the movie is pretty solid and makes up for it.

The Man With The Golden Gun is also a great film. It has another good performance by Roger. However, I find the film a little slow moving at some points. The car chase was fairly good, but I thought the barrel roll jump would have been better without the slide whistle sound. The climax is better in my opinion though than Live and Let Die, as I really enjoy the funhouse scenes.

Overall, I think I like both films equally. There are some moments that are better in Live and Let Die than The Man With The Golden Gun and vice versa. Live and Let Die I probably watch more often though just because it's also my favorite Ian Fleming novel.

[Jimmy Bond 83]

LALD over TMWTGG.

TMWTGG is one of the worst Bond films, ever. While LALD ain't one of the very best, either, Moore is fantastic, and is better than Connery was in YOLT and DAF, the immediate prequel. I actually feel the script needed some slight script rewrite, to take out some of the silly elements that didn't work (J.W. Pepper never worked for me, really), bring in some darker humor and balance it with its occasionally creepy atmosphere.

Because LALD's main reason for not being one of the best, is because of the script (which still is better than DAF and TMWTGG, certainly). Had it been more carefully written, perhaps to keep some Fleming characteristics (like that boat scene that initially ended up in FYEO), take out the silly Mr. Big/Kananga mystery (pretty obvious from the start, don't you think) and improve the villain's demise. Really, exploding and yet no blood or livers or anything? Too much asking...

Still, LALD has a special spot in my heart because it was the first glance of Bond that I ever had.

"Two tons of heroin, over a million dollars, nationally and distributed free?"

First Bond line for me. From a commercial about the film in a local network.

[Judo chop]

1. Jane Seymour
2. "Well, at least I've laid your fears to rest."

Best girl. Best Line. No nipples. No sumo--grabbing.
LALD wins.

I still like the Man... just nowhere near as much as LALD. LALD may be my favorite Moore film, and may even be right there at 5th place overall, after the first four of the series.

[JimmyBond]

I would argue that TMWTGG is to LALD as TND is to GE.

I agree. If you mean that the second film of each actor is far superior to the weak first

[Harmsway]

I think - hope - that Craig's performance in CASINO ROYALE will carry strong echoes of Moore's in his first two. Or perhaps I'm just getting carried away by the blonde hair connection. Seriously, though, like Moore was, Craig's a real visual break with his predecessors, with a very different take on the Bond role, cruel and cool, and very English (and a hairless chest to boot ).

We shall see... I think there might be a touch of early Moore there. I'm not quite sure what vibes will really come from the finished product.

Back OT, I find THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN far superior to LIVE AND LET DIE in every department (with the possible exception of the title song department - McCartney's song is infinitely better than Lulu's): better score, better villains, more attractive women, better production values (TMWTGG is hardly the most lavish of the Bond flicks, but LALD looks really cheap and bargain basement - just check out the San Monique cemetery set, with that awful plastic snake), a more interesting plot.... and, above all, a truly wonderful "travelogue" feel, making perhaps the best use of exotic locations of the entire series.

I agree on everything except the score (I much prefer George Martin's quite fantastic funky score) and TMWTGG "making perhaps the best use of exotic locations of the entire series" (which is an honor that I think goes to YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, without question).

Both films score really highly in terms of "the element of the bizarre", and there's a lot more "Fleming" in them than you might think.

Oh yeah. "The element of the bizarre" is always an important element for me with Bond, and these two films rank really highly on that chart.

[Jimmy Bond 83]

I would argue that TMWTGG is to LALD as TND is to GE.

I agree. If you mean that the second film of each actor is far superior to the weak first

I agree. And to add, Brosnan's third was better than both, like TSWLM was better than LALD and TMWTGG.

I only wish Brosnan did a fifth, because I am sure it would've been, like Moore's FYEO, his best. Too bad we're stuck with ugly-man Craig...

[Tarl_Cabot]

I love them both too...More so than Roger's "good" outings...I think Roger nails Bond in TMWTGG and we have perhaps his greatest adversary ever.

Personally, I think Moore's best outings are his first four. I think these first four films are the ones where Moore really shines, and these first four films had a vibrancy and energy to them that was lost from then onwards.

His portrayal in the first two films though has a shocking dark side. I think he's his best in them - cruel at times, cool at others, but not as much the cartoon Bond that he became from TSWLM onwards. I love him in both LALD and TMWTGG purely because he actually manages to be quite cool here by being so chillingly detached. "Don't go in there without a mongoose" - awesome.

What I particularly love about LIVE AND LET DIE is its atmosphere. George Martin's score as well as the Caribbean location with its voodoo vibe is just very, very unique.

I think - hope - that Craig's performance in CASINO ROYALE will carry strong echoes of Moore's in his first two. Or perhaps I'm just getting carried away by the blonde hair connection. Seriously, though, like Moore was, Craig's a real visual break with his predecessors, with a very different take on the Bond role, cruel and cool, and very English (and a hairless chest to boot ).

Back OT, I find THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN far superior to LIVE AND LET DIE in every department (with the possible exception of the title song department - McCartney's song is infinitely better than Lulu's): better score, better villains, more attractive women, better production values (TMWTGG is hardly the most lavish of the Bond flicks, but LALD looks really cheap and bargain basement - just check out the San Monique cemetery set, with that awful plastic snake), a more interesting plot.... and, above all, a truly wonderful "travelogue" feel, making perhaps the best use of exotic locations of the entire series.

Both films score really highly in terms of "the element of the bizarre", and there's a lot more "Fleming" in them than you might think.

"more attractive women"?

Jane Seymour owns anybody in TMWTGG but I agree it's a better movie than LALD...but not by much....gawd it would be awesome if Casino gets a follow up one year later like the 73-74 Bonds...comon Babs! Throw us a frickin' Bone!

[Flash1087]

I vastly prefer LALD. TMWTGG is the closest thing I have to a 'least favorite Bond film'.

[CJB]

IMO, LALD is a fairly good film but TMWTGG is awful.