46 replies to this topic

[spynovelfan]

A lot of Bond fans were troubled to discover that in CASINO ROYALE, James Bond is a former member of the SAS. 'This wasn't in Fleming!' But wasn't it? Fleming was very sketchy about Bond

[marktmurphy]

Fantastic work- I never had a problem with Bond being in the SAS now, but I didn't realise it was possible he could have been in it in Fleming's version. I knew about the obituary talking about his special operations, but I thought the SAS hadn't been founded. Excellent research!

[David Schofield]

I for one have absolutely no problem in believing what you've concluded, Spy.

[Mister Asterix]

Very nice research, snf.

[spynovelfan]

Thanks. Sorry about the booboo in the original title, and thanks to whoever fixed it.

I knew that Bond being in the Ardennes in 1944 meant it was possible - and quite likely - that he would have been with the SAS, because I spent a couple of months last year writing a piece about that very subject (and it was published in 5 SAS' veterans' magazine! ). But I was stuck with how he could do that and be a Commander RNVR by the end of the war. This is just one way it could work - I'm sure there are more. And I'm equally sure that nobody involved with the film considered any of this!

[doublenoughtspy]

Interesting theory.

But I don't buy "possible he meant it to be so."

The SAS started in 1941. While books from their members weren't the cottage industry they are today - Fleming had to be aware of the group's exploits.

He had 12 novels and numerous short stories where he had every opportunity to mention those three letters, and he never did.

The SAS was and is a raid unit, a commando unit. Bond was in intelligence - maybe he helped plan the raids, gather info so they would be successful. Or he helped mop up after the raids were over, gathering the documents and cypher equipment etc.

I have no problem with Bond working with the SAS in various points of his career - and in Gardner it's pretty obvious that he does so on plenty of occasions, both in training and on operations.

My problem lies however, with the fact that the SAS is an Army unit. And once you say Bond was in the army, you take away from the whole Naval Officer elan that is tied to character. Reference a site called Commanderbond.net. Perhaps you've heard of it? LtColonelBond.net doesn't quite have the same ring.

The SAS is the most elite unit of the British army. If Bond has to be in the Army, that is the unit I would choose too. But the army doesn't have the Commander rank. So how are they going to explain that?

Two of Fleming's heroes, his father Major Valentine and Winston Churchill, were in the Army. Had he wanted some sort of army connection for Bond, he very easily could have done so.

But the third person in Fleming's trinity of heroes, is Horatio Lord Nelson. And Fleming's love of things naval is pretty evident - it harkens back to Britain's peak of it's empire and it's strength as a naval power.

And as an aside, elite units don't always equate with intelligence. (IQ I mean, not spying.) For instance, here in America, people argue over who is tougher/more elite/etc. - Army SF (Green Beret's) or Navy SEALS. DOD studies have shown that while the SEALs might be in better shape overall, the Green Berets have higher intelligence - they are selected because of their ability to think, to train others, to use languages, etc. etc. and not just because they can do the most push ups.

And that again follows my objection to Bond being in the SAS - he doesn't just blow stuff up - he isn't just a British Rambo.

[avl]

[K1Bond007]

Well I'm of the opinion that he didn't spend much time in the RNVR, if at all, and I'm not really hurt by this SAS stuff. Fleming never says, but I think it's more logical that Bond was a member of SOE or Fleming's own 30 AU. That's my take considering Fleming always writes about what he has (usually) inside knowledge of. It doesn't mean SAS couldn't work. I think it's very flexible.

It should be noted that Bond is referred to (by Le Chiffre) and even by himself as gallivanting around the world playing "Red Indians." It crops up in not just Casino Royale. I've seen it in other stories; I would have to double check, but The Living Daylights is one of them off the top of my head - I think...

[Mister Asterix]

[mra]Let

[doublenoughtspy]

Oh I agree Mr *.

The letters SAS may not be seen or mentioned. They might just show a commando raid or a picture from one and that will be it. I would highly doubt they'll show Craig in a tan beret with a winged dagger.

[marktmurphy]

But I don't buy "possible he meant it to be so."

Maybe not- but he clearly meant something of the sort- it's in black and white. And it's certainly not against the spirit of anything he says.

My problem lies however, with the fact that the SAS is an Army unit. And once you say Bond was in the army, you take away from the whole Naval Officer elan that is tied to character. Reference a site called Commanderbond.net. Perhaps you've heard of it? LtColonelBond.net doesn't quite have the same ring.

That's not really relevant. Sounds like you just prefer the Navy because they have nice outfits and cool-sounding ranks; it really wouldn't matter either way. In any case- nothing in this says that Bond wasn't a Royal Navy officer as well. Fleming says he was, but also says he saw service in the Ardennes which is a little far inland for a Naval battle! Fleming says he did both. Argue with Fleming; not SPN.

And as an aside, elite units don't always equate with intelligence. (IQ I mean, not spying.) For instance, here in America, people argue over who is tougher/more elite/etc. - Army SF (Green Beret's) or Navy SEALS. DOD studies have shown that while the SEALs might be in better shape overall, the Green Berets have higher intelligence - they are selected because of their ability to think, to train others, to use languages, etc. etc. and not just because they can do the most push ups.

You know we're talking about the SAS? The most well respected unit in the owrld- the intelligence of the Green Berets has nothing to do with them.

[doublenoughtspy]

In black and white? As SNF fan says himself - no evidence in Fleming that Bond was in the SAS.

Sorry my Green Beret analogy was lost on you. In another thread SNF mentions that the whole SAS
thing smacks of a Jason Statham film if not handled carefully. Elite units can have the joe sixpack
idea of what makes a man tough connotation.

As I said before, the SAS existed in Fleming's time and he could have easily mentioned it in
relation to Bond, and he never did. You can try to shoehorn it in to match ficticous dates with
real events.

And just because Bond was involved in the Ardennes doesn't mean he wasn't there on a naval
mission - they do have rivers there you know...

[Jim]

All very interesting.

All very three seconds of screen time.

All very passing by 99% of the audience who won't give a damn.

All very no real problem; there's no friendship with Alec Trevelyan in Fleming either.

Sorry to sound dismissive, for whilst this is an absorbing read I really don't think there will be much impact. And it's something they might cut anyway.

[vosne]

as my old lit. professor used to say, "and if that's not a true story, it should be"

[spynovelfan]

Okay, I need to explain myself a little.

All this is a bit of fun - it's not meant all that seriously. Just a bit of fanboydom gone mad. *If* CASINO ROYALE states on screen that Bond was in the SAS, it's a little jarring for some people - as doublenoughtspy has eloquently shown. I'm trying to see if it *necessarily* contradicts Fleming's books. I am not trying to prove he was in the SAS in Fleming. I'm trying to see if he *could* plausibly have been, to satisfy an odd urge for this to work for Bond nuts like outselves.

Ian Fleming did not state that James Bond was in the SAS during WW2. But neither did he state Bond was in SOE, or 30AU, or any of the *dozens* of other groups that were active at that time. Yes, Fleming's father was in the army. But Fleming himself set up 30AU and they're never mentioned in the books either. The same argument applies. So, bearing in mind that Fleming gave us very little explicit information about who Bond worked for before MI6, let's look at his novels and try to figure out who he *could* have been working for. And it has to be a story that would fit Fleming, as per the subtitle of the thread.

We have two snippets of info. In DR NO, a machine-gun gives 'the swift, rattling roar Bond had last heard coming from the German lines in the Ardennes'. So he was there: this is not someone 'planning' anything. And we have the obituary in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, which tells us he was given the rank of lieutenant in the Special Branch of the RNVR to 'serve the confidential nature of his duties'.

How can these two pieces of information be reconciled? There are, of course, rivers in the Ardennes, but there's that reference to 'German lines', which is clearly not action against a naval force, but the Ardennes offensive. So what was Bond doing there? It's hardly likely that he was in the RNVR and then just upped sticks one day and joined the Army - I don't count that as fitting Fleming. I think I have come up with a plausible reason for him to have been in both these places: In 1941 he joined an SOE-affiliated naval commando unit, the Small Scale Raiding Force. Men in units like SSRF would have needed cover ranks if they were investigated by allied or captured by enemy forces, so they could explain what they were doing there and be able to back it up. Bond was given the rank of Lieutenant RNVR. A year later, the SSRF became a part of the SAS. Bond dropped into the Ardennes with them and helped fight the advancing German line.

And let me turn it around. I've no proof at all of this, of course - but can anyone provide a better explanation? Standard SOE service doesn't work - they were in the Ardennes, but how do you explain the Naval connection? 30AU would be another plausible outfit - not least for biographical reasons - and the naval rank makes sense there. But 30AU were never in the vicinity of the Ardennes. No naval commandos were in the Ardennes. The SAS were trained to cross rivers: here's a photo of 5 SAS doing just that. And that Fleming 'had to be aware' of the SAS' exploits doesn't harm my case, Charles! He was also aware of many others' - how do you explain the discrepancy between the rank and the Ardennes?

Charles, you also say:

'The SAS is the most elite unit of the British army. If Bond has to be in the Army, that is the unit I would choose too. But the army doesn't have the Commander rank. So how are they going to explain that?'

I'm not really talking about the film - I expect they will just state it and not explain. They certainly won't try to fit it in with Fleming and WWII. I'm asking if it *could* fit with the books, though. How will we explain it is my question, if you like. As for the army not having a Commander rank, you've misunderstood my whole theory. SSRF was a *naval* unit which became part of the SAS.

As for your comment about intelligence, well Fleming's character isn't a genius, is he? In his interview with Playboy, Fleming said of Bond:

'I think he's slightly more true to the type of modern hero, to the commandos of the last War, and so on, and to some of the secret-service men I've met, than to any of the rather cardboardy heroes of the ancient thrillers...'

He goes on to describe Bond as 'a healthy, violent, noncerebral man'.

Finally, your objection to Bond not just blowing stuff up and being 'a British Rambo'. That was my concern, too. The SAS has had a lot of stuff written about it over the years, and it has also changed. But its founder, David Stirling, was the Scottish son of a general; his mother was a Lovat. He studied at Trinity College, Cambridge, where the nightlife 'made inroads into his studies. He was eventually read a list of twenty-three offences, and invited to choose the three for which he would be sent down'. Sound at all familiar? Stirling decided to become the first man to climb Everest, and enlisted in the Supplementary Reserves of the Scots Guards - he trained in the Swiss Alps and the Rockies. When war broke out, he was 24, and was sent to the Guards Depot in Pirbright. 'Pirbright was a mere hour from the attractions of London. During one lecture, possibly after a night at White's Club or the gaming tables, Stirling fell asleep. He probably fell asleep in many, but on this occasion he was woken by the lecturer, asking him to repeat what had just been said. Stirling repeated it verbatim.' He then volunteered for an expeditionary force setting off to fight a winter campaign in Finland - ski training was in Chamonix - before joining the commando group Layforce, after which he founded the SAS.

Sound like a British Rambo to you? Because it sounds more than a little like James Bond to me.

(All the quotes and info on Stirling is from THE ORIGINALS: THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE BIRTH OF THE SAS IN THEIR OWN WORDS by Gordon Stevens.)

How have I done? Convinced you at all? Come in and join me in my insanity, Charles. Fleming's Bond *could* have been in the SAS!

And Fleming might even have meant for him to be.

[double-O-Durg]

Let's not fool ourselves - Bond of the films is entirely different to Bond of the novels, why are people getting so hung up about its not Fleming when one of Daltons and none of Brosnans films have been Fleming stories. Even the ones that were were only scantily based on bits of it. You can join the SAS from the navy, they are hardly going to broadcast it now are they. Leave it at that

[spynovelfan]

Let's not fool ourselves - Bond of the films is entirely different to Bond of the novels, why are people getting so hung up about its not Fleming when one of Daltons and none of Brosnans films have been Fleming stories. Even the ones that were were only scantily based on bits of it. You can join the SAS from the navy, they are hardly going to broadcast it now are they. Leave it at that

I know my last few posts have been very long, but it would help if you read even parts of them!

Of course the Bond of the films is different to the books. But as fans, sometimes we don't want them to be *too* different. If CASINO ROYALE featured a scene in which it was revealed that Bond had been a member of the Foreign Legion, was half-Russian, and is now working for the French secret service, we'd be upset! Updating has to strain the continuity, of course. But if they do indeed explicitly state in CR that Bond was in the SAS, I'd be happier if it fitted into Fleming. I think it does. In fact, I think if they hadn't even done this, it's the most plausible explanation.

This post should really be in the literary section, but I couldn't put it there because it would reveal a spoiler for the upcoming film. But I'm really asking: Could Ian Fleming's James Bond have been in the SAS in WW2? I think he could have been.

[doublenoughtspy]

Yes, no one is pretending that literary James Bond and film James Bond match exactly. 1st at Cambridge? Bah!

Jeremy, you do make valid points that it is possible literary Bond was in the SAS.

But I think SOE is a more likely scenario. Why do you discount the SOE? They were in the Ardennes as you said, and they did use naval personnel in some operations.

[Loomis]

They might just show a commando raid or a picture from one and that will be it.

I know that the emphasis here is on "might", but I quite like the idea of clips of pre-MI6 missions and derring-do making up the opening credits sequence (although I guess it would risk looking like a bit of a ripoff of the opening credits of CON AIR). Sort of like the opening credits of ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE, except with stuff we hadn't seen. Imagine the subsequent decades of fun in fandom discussing what those missions and derring-do might have been.

[Mister Asterix]

They might just show a commando raid or a picture from one and that will be it.

I know that the emphasis here is on "might", but I quite like the idea of clips of pre-MI6 missions and derring-do making up the opening credits sequence (although I guess it would risk looking like a bit of a ripoff of the opening credits of CON AIR). Sort of like the opening credits of ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE, except with stuff we hadn't seen. Imagine the subsequent decades of fun in fandom discussing what those missions and derring-do might have been.

Hang on.

Let me get this straight.

You paid attention while watching Con-Air?

[Loomis]

You paid attention while watching Con-Air?

CON AIR is abysmal, although I do know people who like it - takes all sorts to make a world, eh? But my eyes didn't truly glaze over until about 10 minutes in, so, yes, I was fairly aware of what was going on during the bits when Nic Cage was turning from cleancut military man to Gulf War hero to have-a-go-hero to unjustly-imprisoned longhaired action hero (all taking about 20 seconds of screentime, in typical Jerry Bruckheimer let's-keep-the-narrative-moving-at-lightning-speed-otherwise-the-viewers-will-get-bored-
because-they-have-the-attention-span-of-goldfish style).

[spynovelfan]

Jeremy, you do make valid points that it is possible literary Bond was in the SAS.

Hurrah! That is all I was trying to do.

But I think SOE is a more likely scenario. Why do you discount the SOE? They were in the Ardennes as you said, and they did use naval personnel in some operations.

I don't discount SOE. You're right - they did indeed use naval personnel: the SSRF was the main unit they took them from. In 1941, Bond could have joined SSRF, which came under the umbrella of SOE, and then left them before the end of 1942 to go into SOE proper (having learned to parachute, as well as how to attach limpet mines to ships for use in LALD!). He could then have dropped into the Ardennes as part of SOE in 1944. That also works, and I'm sure there are other possibilities, too. I think that the SAS thing works as well - and that if anything it may be a little more likely.

The SAS were much more active and much more successful in the Ardennes than any other Allied force, SOE included. And Bond is the best. The wartime SAS also had a large number of mother tongue French-speakers, which was very useful for dropping behind enemy lines - it had entire French and Belgian regiments. Bond was also a mother-tongue French-speaker, so would have been well-suited. During the latter half of 1944, SOE focussed much more on the Netherlands, Norway and elsewhere. There would have been some around, certainly - they would have most likely been with the maquis. But 4 SAS had 186 men helping the Americans in the Ardennes Offensive (Operation Franklin), and the whole of 5 SAS were supporting the British armoured units (Operation Regent).

Then you have the fact that the SAS were mad about Vickers - practically their trademark!

The SAS have gotten a bad name in recent years, for exactly the reasons you've said: it's the cliche gung-ho action-man thing. But back in WW2, this was not the case. SOE and SAS often worked very closely, and it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between their roles. But if we forget about all the bad films and the amount of times we've heard the phrase, I do think the SAS' motto embodies a lot of the spirit of James Bond. Who Dares Wins. Doesn't that sum him up?

I just like that this is plausible. Sorry for taking so much space.

[Leon]

Firstly I don't doubt he is still a Royal Navy Commander. They had a Royal Navy press conference didn't they.

His stint in special forces actually makes his background a closer modern translation of what Fleming gave him.

Ian Fleming planned missions and trained commandos under Naval Intelligence. 30 Assauly Unit ("Ian's Red Indians") condusted covert operations behind enemy lines, and reported intelligence back to the mysterious "room 29".

Fleming gave Bond the same background, only he went on these missions as an officer (the job Fleming always wanted to do but was never allowed).

The closest thing today to this job during the war is the SAS/SBS. So a spell in the SAS after being in the Navy is a pretty cool thing IMO. Plus it's common for special forces soldiers to work for the Secret Intelligence Service (SIS/MI6) later on, as they work closely together.

[spynovelfan]

The closest thing today to this job during the war is the SAS/SBS.

Yes, Leon, but I'm saying that he could have been in the SAS during the *war*.

Ian Fleming's James Bond cannot have been in 30 Assault Unit. DR NO tells us Bond was in the Ardennes - 30AU were never there. And YOLT tells us that in 1941 he joined an outfit that gave him the cover rank of lieutenant in the Special Branch of the RNVR - 30AU wasn't founded until December 1943.

Who the hell was Bond working for, then? To have been given a cover rank in the RNVR, he would have to have been in some kind of secret naval unit (M says his duties were 'confidential'). And for a British agent to have then been at the Battle of the Bulge, he would have to have been in the SOE, the SAS or one of the affiliated groups (Phantom, for instance).

One way to tie the two up is that he was in the Small Scale Raiding Force, a naval commando unit set up in 1941 that worked with SOE; then he joined SOE proper and parachuted into the Ardennes in 1944. But SSRF became part of the SAS in 1942, so he *could* also have just stayed with them and parachuted in as SAS instead. SOE and SAS were doing very much the same job in that part of the world at that time: the only real difference is that the SAS were always in uniform.

[Bond_Bishop]

Great research! I enjoy these facts

[krypt]

Excellent research and a very informative read. Thanks so much for posting it.

[spynovelfan]

Thanks, BB and krypt.

Standard SOE service doesn't work - they were in the Ardennes, but how do you explain the Naval connection?

Having opened up a discussion on this over at my spy discussion group, and done a bit more research, it seems I was wrong about this. SOE weren't at the Ardennes Offensive. Bond could still have been SOE for the first part of the war - ie the SSRF bit outlined, or some other similar explanation - but it looks like for him to have been at the Battle of the Bulge - which is what the 'German lines' in DR NO have to be describing - Bond must either have been in the regular army or in the SAS or some affiliated group like Phantom Regiment.

Phantom is a fascinating possibility, as Philip Warner's official history of the SAS says that David Niven was with them, but I don't think Niven was in the Ardennes (or it might explain a thing or two!). The French and Belgian SAS regiments did have a number of foreigners, though, and they were mostly Phantom. At the moment, that looks to me the likeliest option. LES PARACHUTISTES BELGES by Jean Temmermans has a full description of French and Belgian SAS' activity during the Ardennes Offensive, complete with maps and photographs and battle orders. The SAS gave support to the Ist US Army, and the British XXX Corps and 61st Reconaissance Regiment - and I do prefer that idea to Bond just being a soldier in the army.

It's a fanboy exercise. I know Fleming could be very inconsistent.

But when I have some more details I want to run this theory by some well-known special forces and military experts to see if it flies.

Regardless, you can all use this one down the pub when someone says Bond couldn't have been in the SAS. 'In Dr No, Fleming has Bond remember hearing the machine-guns of the German lines in the Ardennes. The SAS were there - Bond could have been, too.'



Bond was also never in the Royal Navy in Fleming's books.

[Santa]

All very interesting.

All very three seconds of screen time.

All very passing by 99% of the audience who won't give a damn.

All very no real problem; there's no friendship with Alec Trevelyan in Fleming either.

Sorry to sound dismissive, for whilst this is an absorbing read I really don't think there will be much impact. And it's something they might cut anyway.

I'm with you Jim but I have to say I find SNF's nerdiness very endearing. Lovely job SNF

[DanMan]

I don't think we have to worry about all this considering the James Bond of Casino Royale '06 never served in WWII. It's the same character, but a different character if you get what I'm saying. Their basically going to give him a new backround.

[spynovelfan]

I don't think we have to worry about all this considering the James Bond of Casino Royale '06 never served in WWII. It's the same character, but a different character if you get what I'm saying. Their basically going to give him a new backround.

Yes, I had figured that one out, thanks, DanMan!

I was trying to see if Bond having a background in the SAS could fit into Fleming's novels. If you find that an interesting idea, why not read the thread?