28 replies to this topic

[stamper]

OK, I don't know why, despite what the court says, seeing all those pics of Monty Norman smiling at events, I get the feeling he didn't write the Bond theme, and just enjoys living of the idea and reputation that he did.

I'm tired of seeing him all smiles, dressed with the same vest.

What do you guys think ? This is purely opinion. Please don't sue.

[hrabb04]

Where did Monty's career go after Bond? Where did John's career go after Bond? Compare, please.

[The Cat]

We ALL know the truth, there is even evidence they didn't use in the "recent" court case. But we can not and should not say it out loud. I'm talking seriously here, this is not a joke. This is a very serious thing. I've had good friends who nearly got fried for this and describing the issue is the hardest part of my book - it has been re-written numerous times after consultation with lawyers. So just know the truth and live with it.

Here's a little paraphrase:

GROUNDSKEEPER WILLIE: Boy! You've got the SHINNING!

BART SIMPSON: You mean shining?

GROUNDSKEEPER WILLIE: Sh! You wanna get sued?

[AlphaSigOU]

Putting it simply:

Monty Norman wrote it.
John Barry orchestrated it.
The rest is history - that settles it!

[marktmurphy]

I think it's more like: Norman wrote a bit of it (dang-diddle-lang-dang dang-dang-dang dang-diddle-lang-dang); Barry wrote the rest of it (der-der-DA DA! etc. deeerrrr-deeerrrr-DEEEERRR-derrr).

[ACE]

It's a real shame that people persist in trying to perpetuate a (dangerous) myth at the expense of the truth by raising innuendo and completely ignoring accepted facts.

Monty Norman WROTE the James Bond theme.

John Barry did NOT write the James Bond theme.

John Barry orchestrated and arranged the James Bond theme.

Anyone with access to the recent court case papers will know that there is overwhelming evidence based on historical and contemporaneous documentation that Monty Norman wrote the James Bond theme. BTW, the case was Norman vs The Sunday Times - Barry was not a party merely a witness.

Anyone who knows about music and copyright and the difference between composition and arrangement will know more-or-less conclusively that Monty Norman wrote the James Bond theme.

As for unused evidence, it is just that: unused. The whole point of the court case was to test the evidence and lay for rest the rumours. Of course, if a court case goes the "wrong" way, there are always tons of people who say "Well, of course, if you knew what I knew... etc". Also the accepted truth is less commercial. Any book or article on the subject needs to have its own angle to be sellable. This potentially impinges on the integrity of any such project. Interview subjects always like to share their "inside" story (whether capable of corroboration or not).

I love John Barry - I think he is a musical genius. However, it does John Barry a disservice to attribute a piece of music as being composed by him when it was not. Barry has written enough wonderful pieces.

Now, if some people irrationally feel or want John Barry to have written the James Bond theme, fine. But let's not attribute any of this to fact. Unless, of course, we have something to sell.

[marktmurphy]

I read the court case a while back and that's what I based my decisions on. Norman unquestionably wrote the main part of the theme- the riff upon which most of the theme is based including the bebop part, but I saw nothing to say he composed all of it. To my mind, the bebop part and vamp were added by Barry, although of course the bebop is designed to be related to the riff, and even the riff was significantly re-energised. Even just having a listen to Dr No's soundtrack, which features the riff played on trumpet but no sign of the vamp or bebop sections suggests this to me.
Norman wrote the basis of the theme upon which Barry expanded upon and was responsible for its success I far as I can see.

[ACE]

I accept your point, marktmurphy, but reports of the case do not go into the details ins and outs the way the voluminous court papers do. The digest of evidence does not do justice to the weight of evidence AGAINST John Barry having written it.

Well, a number of independant music experts put forward evidence and it was found that Norman composed the theme.

The problem arises when some people do not know the difference between arrangment and composition. And all art is subjective anyway. There is no scientific formula to show who did what, where and when. There is no doubt that the sound of the James Bond theme is Barry's. But the composition and the basis on which Barry arrived at that sound is Monty Norman's. And, I would argue, it is not a matter of belief but a matter of legal fact.

It could be dangerous for people to post beliefs as facts for the sake of CBn. I'm sure no-one will but let us all be responsible here.

[marktmurphy]

There is no doubt that the sound of the James Bond theme is Barry's. But the composition and the basis on which Barry arrived at that sound is Monty Norman's.

Absolutely, but the extent to which the basis ends and the rest of the whole finished tune begins is very debatable. I'd tend to give Barry most of the credit for the Bond theme, even though without Norman's work it certainly would have been a different tune. I've neither heard nor seen anything to suggest Norman wrote anything beyond the main riff (if you'd composed such a great tune for a movie, wouldn't you have used some of the other parts in the actual movie itself?) although naturally the other components of the piece are derived from that basic riff, apart from the vamp.
The piece certainly couldn't have existed without both men, but as it is a piece of many parts I don't think it's right to simply say one wrote it and one didn't. There's a definite question mark as to who composed the rest of the tune beyond the riff, in my eyes.

[SecretAgentFan]

Me, I just love the music...

[SomeBloke]

Vamps are, as had been stated, not legally binded to anyone. So, that rules that bit out.

[MarcAngeDraco]

Me, I just love the music...

Me too. I'm not going to worry about who wrote it or what part they wrote, I'll just sit back and enjoy...

[The Cat]

There's a definite question mark as to who composed the rest of the tune beyond the riff, in my eyes.

The answer is in the movie. Watch the movie carefully, and you'll have the answer.

It could be dangerous for people to post beliefs as facts for the sake of CBn. I'm sure no-one will but let us all be responsible here.

Very true. The only problem is that it's even more adviseable not to post facts either, that's why we're left with what we call bushwhacking. It's a nasty sport...

The whole Sunday Times court case dug up an old and heavy coffin which should have never been opened. From a business point of view, Monty still gets "official credit" and more importantly, gets paid for the exact bit he wrote. In this respect, nothing has changed. The problem is that the court case rose awareness and now a bunch of excited "fans" try to explain the whole things without knowing the full story. As you said, many people don't understand the difference between composing and orchestraing, but the most intresting aspect of this case (the business one) requires a bit of legal knowledge too - very few professional reviewers can claim to have this either, but it is one of the key aspects in this story.

Edited by The Cat, 18 March 2006 - 04:50 PM.

[Kingdom Come]

I have a BBC radio interview with Barry from about 1992 and when asked did he write the James Bond Theme, Barry said "Well if I didn't, I don't know why I was asked to do the others".

I think Norman wrote the theme and Barry changed it 'somewhat'!! and with the stunning orchestration made it probably the most memorable theme in film history.

Sorry to confuse the thread further.

[marktmurphy]

Oh Cat, why do you always have to try and be mysterious? Just say what you mean for a change. Presumably you're trying to say there's evidence of the bebop section in 'Dr No's Fantasy', are you? Or do you just mean the bit in the titles where it says who wrote the theme?

And I don't care who 'legally' wrote what or got paid for what, I'm just saying what everything suggests to me who actually wrote what. Please don't try and paint other 'some people' as being stupid or easily lead by newspaper articles; it's what I always thought and still do. I'm not saying it's the exact truth; just what seems likely to my eyes.

The problem is that the court case rose awareness and now a bunch of excited "fans" try to explain the whole things without knowing the full story.

See, what's the point of the way you've phrased this other than to try and sound superior and to wind people up? What do the quotation marks mean?

[The Cat]

Oh Cat, why do you always have to try and be mysterious? Just say what you mean for a change. Presumably you're trying to say there's evidence of the bebop section in 'Dr No's Fantasy', are you? Or do you just mean the bit in the titles where it says who wrote the theme?

No, it's much simpler than that and the answer to the second question goes way beyond the age of Dr. No. Without getting into the boring details - the music was recorded in three stages: 1. Carribean stuff. 2. Orchestral score 3. Barry's take on The James Bond Theme. Norman's portion of the theme was written between the first and the second sessions - the second session only contains Norman's work and none of Barry's (since he wasn't involved at that point). See what parts of the James Bond Theme appear in that part of the score and that answers your question. That's basically what you said, I just wanted to give you the historic background how your logic was flawless by raising the right question - why wasn't the rest used? I recommanded to watch the movie because the materials of the second sessions are commercially unavailable, plus you have the joy of watching a great movie. That's the short version of the story - I had no intention to be toooo mysterious, but I like to play safe.

The problem is that the court case rose awareness and now a bunch of excited "fans" try to explain the whole things without knowing the full story.

See, what's the point of the way you've phrased this other than to try and sound superior and to wind people up? What do the quotation marks mean?

I'm sorry if this sounded offensive, that was not my intention. The whole point of dealing with scores is just relaxing and listening to the music.

Edited by The Cat, 18 March 2006 - 06:36 PM.

[Mark_Hazard]

I have a BBC radio interview with Barry from about 1992 and when asked did he write the James Bond Theme, Barry said "Well if I didn't, I don't know why I was asked to do the others".

I think Norman wrote the theme and Barry changed it 'somewhat'!! and with the stunning orchestration made it probably the most memorable theme in film history.

Sorry to confuse the thread further.

I remember listening to that interview too.

At one time I also had a news cutting where Barry was asked why he wrote the 007 theme, to which he replied (something along the lines) that he wrote it so that this time he would receive royalties from something he wrote.

I often wonder why there wasn't a court case then.

I just wish I still had that cutting.

[The Cat]

I often wonder why there wasn't a court case then.

In my opinion, if events had come in a different order, I'm pretty sure Saltzman or Broccoli would have settled in a final and fair consesus with both Norman and Barry. Unfortunately in late 1962, the situation became quite tense between EON and Norman because of Call Me Bwana on which Norman worked, but was removed in mid-production, just to be replaced by Muir Matheson. There was some argument how would Norman be compensated for the title theme he wrote. Finally he was given a generous sum, but the parties tried to close the chapter down as fast as possible, so the case of the James Bond Theme got hanging in the air and wasn't resolved as it should have been. And in the busy early 60s, I don't think that the busy people working on Bond could have afforded to spend time testifying in a lengthy legal procedure when there was a new movie to be produced in every year...

Edited by The Cat, 19 March 2006 - 06:16 PM.

[Head of S]

Where did Monty's career go after Bond? Where did John's career go after Bond? Compare, please.

After Dr No Monty Norman was invited to write the title song for Eon's next film production - Call Me Bwana - and recorded the incidental music. According to Monty Norman, it was a dispute over his contract (or lack of) with Harry Saltzman that ended his association with Eon Productions.

Monty Norman continued working in musical theatre and won the Evening Standard, Laurence Olivier and Ivor Novello awards for best musical for Songbook (1979).

As well as writing the James Bond Theme, the entire score for Dr No deserves credit. 'Kingston Calypso' (Three Blind Mice) which, as Norman says, "plays against" the opening assassination scene, 'Jump Up Jamaica' and 'Underneath The Mango Tree' provide the local flavour for the movie, whilst the score for the tarantula sequence, Bond killing Dr No's man in the river, and the final battle with Dr No creates the dramatic backdrop for the on-screen action. There are some nice cues, such as the sequence where Bond hands Moneypenny the empty gun box which cuts to him entering his flat, and Norman has fun with the Duke of Wellington painting. The James Bond Theme is worked in to his score, not just Barry's orchestration. Monty Norman's contribution to the film is, in my opinion, just as important to the success as Connery's Bond, Peter Hunt's editing, Terence Young's direction etc.

Yes, give due credit to John Barry for his arrangement of the Bond theme (Monty Norman does - he calls it "the definitive" arrangement) but don't belittle a great musician with uninformed innuendo.

[marktmurphy]

No, it's much simpler than that and the answer to the second question goes way beyond the age of Dr. No. Without getting into the boring details - the music was recorded in three stages: 1. Carribean stuff. 2. Orchestral score 3. Barry's take on The James Bond Theme. Norman's portion of the theme was written between the first and the second sessions - the second session only contains Norman's work and none of Barry's (since he wasn't involved at that point). See what parts of the James Bond Theme appear in that part of the score and that answers your question. That's basically what you said, I just wanted to give you the historic background how your logic was flawless by raising the right question - why wasn't the rest used?

A-ha; fair points, all. Pretty much as I thought, then. Norman certainly wrote the main riff, but his authorship of the rest of the tune beyond that still looks shakey. I've certainly never seen him singing that 'Good sign, bad sign' song to the tune of the bebop section of the Bond theme- the 'action' bit.

[stamper]

Well, It doesn't change the fact that I hate pictures of Norman holding his Bond theme partition and grinning like he is saying "I conned you all !". I have never seen Barry looking that way in his publicity pictures.

Norman still looks like someone who created something that became worldwide by mistake, and is enjoying the ride, snubbing up everyone (including Barry, who disagree with him) and the press in the process.

I say look at the two partitions : it's obvious it's Barry's work which makes the grade, even if the skeleton was provided by someone else. I say he made it his...

[doublenoughtspy]

So based on how the man looks is how you determine authorship, Stamper?

Every James Bond film credits Monty Norman as the author of the theme.

If John Barry had a case he has had ample opportunity to sue.

[The Cat]

If John Barry had a case he has had ample opportunity to sue.

I know it might sound strange, but some people just like to live peacefully with their great achievements. Some people just don't like to sue.

IMO the biggest problem are the teminology differences - what we call the James Bond Theme doesn't equal what the credits at the end of the movies identify as James Bond Theme. This really is responsible for like 60% of the misunderstandings in the whole JB Theme case and I seriously have no idea how it could be resolved.

Edited by The Cat, 21 March 2006 - 06:22 PM.

[marktmurphy]

Do you mean that the riff alone is considered the Bond theme rather than the entire compostion?

[crheath]

If John Barry had a case he has had ample opportunity to sue.
[/quote]

He hasn't because he doesn't need to. Norman has been fighting for this because it's the only thing he has. Barry on the other hand . . . need I say more?

[stamper]

OK, don't forget the credits was supposedly given to Norman as an "arrangement", they told Barry he would do the others in exchange for him not claiming the credits. It's pretty well documented in most unofficial Bond books.
Yes, I think the looks count, and I think, seeing those pics of Norman with his grin, that something's not right. But I do believe what Barry did was a "rewrite", and that credit went to Norman, very much the same way some screenwriters get the credit when not one line of dialogue remaining in a movie is there (that's because usually the story is pretty much kept).

[Forever007]

Doesn't just about all the recent films have Monte Norman credited for the Bond Theme? I think the end titles has his name listed so that would I assume be enough to say he wrote it. EON wouldn't credit him if it wasn't legally true.

[Johnboy007]

I've been aimlessly searching for reviews of John Barry's other works and i've found a staggering amount of places that consider Barry to be the author of the James Bond Theme. Not saying that they're accurate (Officially, they are not), but I just find it interesting.

[The Cat]

Do you mean that the riff alone is considered the Bond theme rather than the entire compostion?

Yes. From a crediting point of view, that's how the system works and didn't really change in the past 40 years. So no matter what "legal actions" happen, I doubt it would rock THIS boat.