183 replies to this topic

[trumanlodge89]

well first of all, im getting the impression that casino royale will be an adaption of the novel the way batman begins is an adaption of "batman: year one." its not exactly the same, but it captures the spirit of the work.


and if bond and felix are meeting for the first time in this film, why does it possibly matter how he looks? this is a new james bond series, so some things may be different.

[dr.doak]

What dissapoints me is that we never really got a chance to see what Fleming always said Felix was, a Texan. Never did he give me the impression he was from anywhere but California. I think this movie could've given them the chance to give us a real cowboy type of character, with somebody like Patrick Duffy or John Schneider making it feel like Dallas meets 007. True, Fleming's descriptions never really made him seem Texan in that vein, but this could've been done better in the films. I think going the PC route instead of continuing to use an original black character like Robinson or Quarrel Jr and letting Felix be Felix is a mistake. I think the whole idea of a restart is a mistake anyway, especially with Dench as M and the same music and credits, but that's beside the point. I think a big, strong male Texan character would've been great and would've made the series more interesting, and Felix is a natural because that is what he was supposed to be.

[shady ginzo]

Casting a black actor as Felix is another degree of separation from the previous films, if you like, another knockout punch to anyone gripping onto continuity. now all I ever seem to post about is the fact I am in support of the restart of the franchise (which I don't blame anyone for being a bit tired of hearing!) but this peice of casting stumped me for one reason, why? I don't mean to say Jeffrey Right is unsuitable on grounds of ethnicity, but it almost seems they're TRYING to make it difficult for people to adapt to this film sometimes, for example, anyone who appreciated the character as he was originally portrayed will have their nose pushed out of joint somewhat by this, Just as if Moneypenny became a man or Q became a 20 year old surfer "dude"
The move simply clashes with the preconceptions of fans, which i know they are trying to break down through the re-start concept, but some of the lengths they go to seem un-founded
appart from the 40 year history of the character, when considered on Casino Royale's merits alone, I think Jeffrey Right will infact play the character exceptionally well. His part in "SHAFT" was nothing remarkable, but other apperances give me a great deal of confidence that, given a good script and character, he could really shine though and steal a lot of scenes from the bigger name actors

Edited by shady ginzo, 17 February 2006 - 10:58 PM.

[SPECTRE ASSASSIN]

When i first heard that Felix Leiter was to be potrayed by Wright (he was compelling in SHAFT), i was a bit surprised, but i had an open mind and know that Wright is an excellent actor and will do well i think for this character. A bit of a gutsy move from EON, but i admire that they're actually looking at the pedigree of their acting skills, and not their appearences. Wright brings alot of intimidation and poise he brings to his past roles, so i can't wait for him to appear in CR.

[Kissy]

I think that the Dalton films are separated of the Moore ones.
I think that they begin in fact every time with the series when there is a new Bond. Except for Lazenby and Moore.

I think that CR will be nothing like Batman Begins.

[ACE]

I'm sorry folks , the angle that Ian wasn't a racist when compared to his peers or the the argument that for the times he wasn't racist holds no weight with me whatsoever! Black people weren't in a posistion in the 50's to speak out about rasism on a large platform, and America for the most part turned a deaf ear to Black Americans. Blacks in the US and other parts of the world including South Africa were viewed as sub-par citizens and less than human. I'm saying as a Black man that racist is racist, period. Live and Let Die and other Fleming novels are loaded with racist thought, and there's no excusing that. I do hear what you're saying, but your thinking is a bit skewed....just because he said once when his friends said it four times doesn't make him less racist.

Anyway, I think the casting of Felix is great! I've always enjoyed Casey as Leiter and put him just below Jack Lord as the best. Fleming doesn't need to be White or Black, he just needs to be a stron American on par with Bond.

OK, I take your point Black Felix. And I agree with your feeling that Leiter just needs to be Bond's strong American ally (imagine if Leiter was a blond Texan CIA traitor!). Jeffrey Wright, BTW, is a fine, fine actor.

Some observations:

1) Fleming was British where attitudes towards ethnicity were (and are) different to US attitudes. Fleming also conceived the Bond novels in Jamaica. Fleming interacted with black people of all nationalities a lot more than many of his peers. And remember "Black" is a reductive and inaccurate and, for me in many cases, an offensive phrase (esp. in the context of a "Black Bond" - what a patronizing insult to the artificial construct of race). A black man from New York is not the same as a black man from Jamaica who is not the same a black man from the Bahamas or London or Paris. Colour always comes second to culture!

2) Fleming's attitudes were undoubtedly questionable when seen with today's eyes. However, it is very important to look at the prevailing climate. For example, most men (and women) were sexist in the 1960's but that was acceptable because it was accepted. In years to come, jokes and attitudes towards homosexuals will also be seen to be equally inexplicable and inexcusable. Revisionism is the skew here.

3) I do not find Fleming's novels offensive when taken in context. He is equally disparaging about women, Americans, Koreans, lesbians when seen in today's light. However, he examined these issues in the context of entertaining thrillers which was the primary drive of his writing. Not social commentary.

4)Fleming was undoubtedly an Englishman ahead of his time. He was a true internationalist, fascinated with foreign culture, food, customs, language and attitudes. Compared to (British) people of his class and period, he was way, way, way ahead of his time and far more enlightened. No kitchen sink, parochialism for him. It is for this reason Fleming's work has lasted and will last for a long time yet.

5) If one is offended by passages in the work, that is understandable in this day and age. But that was never Fleming's intention. The power of Fleming's writing and imagination and artistic symmetry is the reason we are all, here, on this thread, on this forum, on the internet, in the bookshop, in the cinema UNITED by Bond.

[Mister Asterix]

Small point: Whether Fleming was a racist or not, it is much to late to change his mind. So I never really let it bother me.

[Bond Bombshell]

There are a number of actors cast in CR whose looks are inconsistent with how I'd imagined their characters. Jeffrey Wright is one of them. Craig and Green are two others. For this reason, I would not have cast Wright as Leiter. For exactly the same reason, I would not have cast Craig and Green either. Wright's casting has inevitably become a race issue, but I prefer not to see it in those terms, and make no distinction between him and Craig and Green. Its true that looks and race are inherently linked, but IMO to concentrate on race clouds an otherwise simple matter.

Meanwhile, in the real world, Eon are not making CR for my benefit, and are entitled to cast as they see fit. I am then free to decide whether my disappointment will keep me out of the cinema. Wild horses, of course, couldn't drag me away. That's all there is to it - it really is that simple. There is far too much rot on message boards about race, and the justification for changing it, or not changing it. Neither argument is winnable as the world of fiction is not an exact science, and there are no absolute rights and wrongs. What it boils down to is personal preferences as regards what suits a character.

[JimmyBond]

I only hope the original poster of this thread (Kissy, I believe) can see past this issue come November and enjoy the movie on it's own merit. And not dislike the film because one of the actors (who'm I know is more than qualified for the role) happens to be black.

[Solex Agitator]

This thread is retarded and insulting. I vote that it not only be closed but permanently deleted. It has no place on CBn. It is 2006. Wake up.

[Leon]

I agree, some of the views posted here are shocking. Felix Leiter is not a principal character who needs specific qualities like James Bond does or Superman does for example. Jeffrey Wright is an inspired choice for a modern Leiter and he'll be outstanding.

[Kara Milovy]

Sorry, but I think that's nonsense. Bond also greatly admires Draco, who is a rapist and a gangster and a pimp - and a Corsican. He has Bond fall in love with Tracy, who is pictured as his ideal accompaniment. And Bond is also of mixed blood, but we're never told he's confused or mentally unstable.

In order for your examples to be a meaningful argument against the idea that Fleming was racist, racism would have to be defined only as a hatred of a specific race or races. But it isn't. Racism is the characterization of a people based on their race in a way that pigeonholes or limits them. Italians "are" gangsters, or ugly, or thugs. Blacks "are" naturally more compliant, naturally more controlled by a strong leader (this is a common racist stereotype used to justify slavery).

Fleming does not, I agree with you, hate members of other races. But he does pigeonhole them; they are defined almost entirely by their genes. Even Felix Leiter is a Texan; Fleming is virtually done describing him when he says that Leiter is a typical Texan.

Bond isn't anguished? Bond's "mixed blood" is introduced fairly late in the series. Nonetheless, he is anguished, confused, angry with himself, and off-balance from the opening of Casino Royale, when he drinks to excess and feels a sour taste of self-hatred that lets him know it's time to stop. He quits in OHMSS, and threatens to at the end of TLD. He is emotionally destroyed by Tracy's death to the point where he has to be given a fake assignment. He tries to kill M. All of these can be justified or explained away, but I think reading Bond as stable and sure of himself is a little superficial.

I am not an expert on the genre; I haven't read much spy fiction beyond Fleming. However, I have read a great deal of other novels from the 50s and 60s, and I must say that describing Fleming's attitudes about race and nation as typical of the era is a huge overstatement.

I think a big, strong male Texan character would've been great and would've made the series more interesting, and Felix is a natural because that is what he was supposed to be.

They have blacks in Texas, y'know. Wright may very well be playing a big, strong, Texan.

This thread is retarded and insulting. I vote that it not only be closed but permanently deleted. It has no place on CBn. It is 2006. Wake up.

Um...you're upset about the discussion of race because it shows prejudice, I assume? Then why use "retarded" as an insult?

[SecretAgent007]

So what if he is black? The important thing is (to me) that he portrays Fleming's character. Color has nothing to do with that. I'm more amazed that most posters don't have a problem with a lot of other things about this film. I would rather see a toned down Bond film than whatever CR is going to end up being.

[cvheady007]

I can't wait until we are judging Casino Royale on its own merits rather than "advance billing" based on its cast.

Edited by cvheady007, 18 February 2006 - 03:23 AM.

[Turn]

I can't wait until we are judging Casino Royale on its own merits rather than "advance billing" based on its cast.

Part of me agrees, but part disagrees with your take.

I too am looking forward to judging CR on its own merits. But after months of speculation and months until its premier, we finally have some topics beyond mere speculation that are inspiring conversation beyond what Craig's hair color will look like and is this a reboot or not. And the suprising choice of Jeffrey Wright as Felix is doing just that.

[Santa]

Fleming's racism was present in all his novels. In DAF he compares Italian-Americans to "real Americans;" (they're not, according to Fleming, just a bunch of "spaghetti eaters"). In LALD, all blacks are part of a vast conspiracy unknown to whites. In OHMSS, the reason that Tracy has psychological problems is because her parents are of different nationalities; "mixed blood," according to Fleming, confuses a person and ruins their lives. I could cite examples from every novel without even breaking a sweat.

Sorry, but I think that's nonsense. Bond also greatly admires Draco, who is a rapist and a gangster and a pimp - and a Corsican. He has Bond fall in love with Tracy, who is pictured as his ideal accompaniment. And Bond is also of mixed blood, but we're never told he's confused or mentally unstable. In LALD, Mr Big has a massive network of negroes working for him as part of his gang - he doesn't have all blacks in the world working for him, and it's never implied he does. There is some racism in Fleming, certainly, but it's pretty mild by the standards of the time and for this genre. The characterisation of Drax is clearly anti-German, for instance. But then Goldfinger seems both a German and a Jewish stereotype simultaneously - and yet he's aparently English. Almost all spy thrillers are 'racist' in that they inevitably have a 'bullet-headed' Russian thug or somesuch. Disney's Winnie The Pooh cartoons are 'racist' because all the characters are American apart from Owl, who has an upper-class English accent to denote he's clever. And so on.

I don't buy your thesis at all. You may well be able to cite examples from every novel without breaking a sweat, but they're pretty lousy examples.

We could argue back and forth all day about what Fleming really thought about certain ideas, problem is, he's dead, so we'll never really know. And now, nost controversially, I'd like to point out that Fleming often talked a lot of rubbish. Of course we all love him, look what he gave us: James Bond. In many ways we're blinded by this. But realistically, many of his literary weaknesses have already been pointed out. He contradicts himself regularly and frankly, some of his plot points are laughable. I could go on but I don't want to. Under these circumstances, are we really going to get bogged down in the rightness, or not, of a black Felix Leiter. It's the same question as how closely they should stick to the novel in general. Yes that would be nice but the world is a very different place now so it's just not possible. IMVHO.

[Santa]

Just had a thought about the whole black/white Felix thing: They should have cast Michael Jackson, then they'd have had a bit of both, and made everyone happy. Or not....

[ACE]

Just had a thought about the whole black/white Felix thing: They should have cast Michael Jackson, then they'd have had a bit of both, and made everyone happy. Or not....

"It doan matter if your black or white - hee hee!"

[Skudor]

Just had a thought about the whole black/white Felix thing: They should have cast Michael Jackson, then they'd have had a bit of both, and made everyone happy. Or not....

"It doan matter if your black or white - hee hee!"

You know, it probably would have made it less controversial to some...

[Skin 17]

I see no problem with Felix Leiter being portrayed by a black actor. On that note I would like to extend my congratulations to Jeffrey Wright on his selection for the role and I wish him good luck.

[Mister Asterix]

This thread is retarded and insulting. I vote that it not only be closed but permanently deleted. It has no place on CBn. It is 2006. Wake up.

[mra]While I agree that I have not seen anyone with an argument that I feel is a worthy argument for why Felix cannot be black, (some have touched on reasons) that doesn

[rogermoore007]

I agree, some of the views posted here are shocking. Felix Leiter is not a principal character who needs specific qualities like James Bond does or Superman does for example. Jeffrey Wright is an inspired choice for a modern Leiter and he'll be outstanding.

That about sums it up. nuff said.

[Agent 76]

He looks more latino-american than black to me.

Either way don't bother me. He seems to be a great actor. I liked his work on Shaft.

[FelixLeiter]

Sorry, guys. Have to agree with those who said Jeffrey Wright is not the best choice to play Felix Leiter. Wright can take this role and do a wonderful job with it, but that's not the point of the argument. Simply put, and no bigotry of any sort is intended, Wright simply does not meet the original character description of Felix Leiter. Wright may be a wonderful actor, but he is not, I think what Leiter should be. In the books, there are two Felix Leiters. In Casino Royale through the first half of Diamonds Are Forever, he is a well developed Texas professional, while in the second half of that book through the rest of his appearances in the series, Fleming changes Felix into more of a Texas cowboy working for the CIA. Either way, he is always one thing. He is, more or less, Bond's equal, just working from the American side. He matches Bond step for step in intelligence, ability as an agent and a fighter, and overall cool factor in general. This translation is always lost in the movies, turning Felix into a sidekick of sorts. Now, Jeffrey Wright can be all those things, can act as Bond's equal, I admit that. But Wright is simply not what Fleming intended for the character to be. Felix was someone who was like Bond, both in character and physically. If a black man were cast in the role of Bond, the Jeffrey Wright would make much more sense as Felix, because they would be more easily seen as peers. Or maybe I just can't let go that EON, as usual, ignores Fleming's work and decides to do what they think best. I have just always seen the Felix Leiter of the books as an excellent character, my favorite of the series next to Bond. As was said in an earlier post, there will always just be that disappointment that EON could have done a movie that was truer to the book, which I can almost promise would make a better movie. This was EON's last chance to bring Fleming's work to life. I have nothing against Wright, it's just a shame to think of potential that I feel, at the moment, is going untapped. Oh well. Maybe next movie they'll get the spirit right. Sure. Why not? I'll put it this way. If Felix was a real guy, and they were bringing his tale to the big screen, I'm almost sure what his quote would be as he saw it. "Gee, that doesn't much look like me, does it, Shamus?"
Hopeful, but for the moment disappointed,
Felix Leiter

[Skin 17]

Felix I understand what you are saying but I think your argument is from the prospective of having a "dated" Felix Leiter, yet I feel that we are looking at a modern Felix and with that in mind I think that Jeffrey Wright was an excellent choice.

[spynovelfan]

In order for your examples to be a meaningful argument against the idea that Fleming was racist, racism would have to be defined only as a hatred of a specific race or races. But it isn't. Racism is the characterization of a people based on their race in a way that pigeonholes or limits them. Italians "are" gangsters, or ugly, or thugs. Blacks "are" naturally more compliant, naturally more controlled by a strong leader (this is a common racist stereotype used to justify slavery).

Fleming does not, I agree with you, hate members of other races. But he does pigeonhole them; they are defined almost entirely by their genes. Even Felix Leiter is a Texan; Fleming is virtually done describing him when he says that Leiter is a typical Texan.

Bond isn't anguished? Bond's "mixed blood" is introduced fairly late in the series. Nonetheless, he is anguished, confused, angry with himself, and off-balance from the opening of Casino Royale, when he drinks to excess and feels a sour taste of self-hatred that lets him know it's time to stop. He quits in OHMSS, and threatens to at the end of TLD. He is emotionally destroyed by Tracy's death to the point where he has to be given a fake assignment. He tries to kill M. All of these can be justified or explained away, but I think reading Bond as stable and sure of himself is a little superficial.

I am not an expert on the genre; I haven't read much spy fiction beyond Fleming. However, I have read a great deal of other novels from the 50s and 60s, and I must say that describing Fleming's attitudes about race and nation as typical of the era is a huge overstatement.

Not as huge an overstatement as some of the stuff in this post!

Which racist stereotype of Italians did Domino conform to, because I don't really see that she was a gangster, ugly or a thug.

How is Mr Big naturally more controlled by a strong leader? He is the strong leader.

I didn't describe Bond as stable and sure of himself - I just disagreed with your idea that Tracy's instability is part of Fleming's prejudice against people of 'mixed blood' by pointing out that his hero is also of mixed blood. And Bond does *not* quit in OHMSS - he composes a letter of resignation in his head. I don't think either that or his comment at the end of TLD is a result of mental instability. Sure, he goes off the deep end after Tracy's death - he's just seen his wife murdered in front of his eyes! Sure, he tries to kill M - because he has been brainwashed by the Russians.

I don't think any of this is *really* part of Fleming's prejudice against people of Swiss-Scottish parentage. Do you?

[Mister Asterix]

Sorry, guys. Have to agree with those who said Jeffrey Wright is not the best choice to play Felix Leiter. Wright can take this role and do a wonderful job with it, but that's not the point of the argument. Simply put, and no bigotry of any sort is intended, Wright simply does not meet the original character description of Felix Leiter. Wright may be a wonderful actor, but he is not, I think what Leiter should be. In the books, there are two Felix Leiters. In Casino Royale through the first half of Diamonds Are Forever, he is a well developed Texas professional, while in the second half of that book through the rest of his appearances in the series, Fleming changes Felix into more of a Texas cowboy working for the CIA. Either way, he is always one thing. He is, more or less, Bond's equal, just working from the American side. He matches Bond step for step in intelligence, ability as an agent and a fighter, and overall cool factor in general. This translation is always lost in the movies, turning Felix into a sidekick of sorts. Now, Jeffrey Wright can be all those things, can act as Bond's equal, I admit that. But Wright is simply not what Fleming intended for the character to be. Felix was someone who was like Bond, both in character and physically. If a black man were cast in the role of Bond, the Jeffrey Wright would make much more sense as Felix, because they would be more easily seen as peers. Or maybe I just can't let go that EON, as usual, ignores Fleming's work and decides to do what they think best. I have just always seen the Felix Leiter of the books as an excellent character, my favorite of the series next to Bond. As was said in an earlier post, there will always just be that disappointment that EON could have done a movie that was truer to the book, which I can almost promise would make a better movie. This was EON's last chance to bring Fleming's work to life. I have nothing against Wright, it's just a shame to think of potential that I feel, at the moment, is going untapped. Oh well. Maybe next movie they'll get the spirit right. Sure. Why not? I'll put it this way. If Felix was a real guy, and they were bringing his tale to the big screen, I'm almost sure what his quote would be as he saw it. "Gee, that doesn't much look like me, does it, Shamus?"
Hopeful, but for the moment disappointed,
Felix Leiter

[mra]I really don

[DLibrasnow]

, while all have achieved the first, only Hedison and Casey have achieved the second. And, in my opinion, only the combination of Casey and Connery nailed the relationship between Bond and Felix.

Wow, did Evan just give kudo's to my favorite Bond movie....I think he did

I quite agree, Casey is my favorite Felix Leiter.

[ACE]

Rick van Nutter, I think, was the most effective Felix Leiter (ironic name, now!).

I agree with Mr *'s list of criteria for the character. In the novels, FL has the jackknife quality of Frank Sinatra with a straw mop of hair and a laconic sense of humour. As Bond's most recurring, foreign ally, he was important in the lit Bond mythos. However, so was Bill Tanner (arguably more so), May, Loelia Ponsonby, Sir James Moloney, Rene Mathis.

All of the above characters have either been ignored completely or distorted out of all recognition by film Bond. The fact that Leiter's now darker, is, in the context of such a fluid film character (esp. after the nibbling of Hedison second incarnation), not as radical a change as changing the colour/gender of a pre-existing recurring character. Moneypenny went from brunette/mature in 14 films to blonde and young in 2 fims to redhead and angular in 4 films. M went from steely eyed silver haired Bernard Lee to chubbier, darker haired Robert Brown. These were all meant to be the SAME character*.

But CR is Bond Begins. It is not meant to have continuity with the previous films. Those were classic Bond. This is new Bond. Therefore, all bets are off. M is the anomaly but they obviously just like Dame Judi.

Continuity has been so strained in Bond and tangential at best. I agree, the chance to have Fleming's jovial blonde Texan ally has probably been lost (it would have been nice from a purist's point of view) BUT provided they retain Wright in subsequent films, and make him Bond's friend in the same louche way Fleming had their relationship, it might make up for the lax casting in the past and lost purist opportunity now.

And, if someone had said, pre-DAD, that Bond 21 would be a relatively faithful adaptation of CR, those same purists would have thanked their lucky stars that not just the title, principal character names and one of two instances from the book (say, two men in straw hats and a bit of gambling) would be used. Leiter's filmic lack of faithfulness to the lit version seems a small price to pay for what appears to be a nice, clever updating and essential retention of the spirit and essence of the first Bond novel.



*notwithstanding the Brown M is Admiral Hargreaves argument.

[Dunph]

It's a strong-feelings kidney whichever way you slice it, isn't it?

CB.n - slamming the wasps from the pure apple of truth

When fact into doubt won't go....

Tee hee.