183 replies to this topic

[Seannery]

Very silly to complain because Jeffrey Wright is black. Who cares? He's a TOPFLIGHT actor without a doubt. Fleming may have been a bit of a snob and somewhat racist but that is irrelevent to today.

[Captain Grimes]

I don't think that EON cast Wright because he is black, but I'm happy to see that the powers that be have no troubling casting a black actor for a major role if he's the best man for the job. (Which Wright certainly is, in my opinion.)

For me, the racism of Fleming and some of the early filmmakers is a terrible blot on Bond history. Take (the book) Live and Let Die, for example: the appalling portrait of Harlem and its residents, the preposterous stuff about voodoo, the laughable attempts at reproducing American speech and customs.... Very ugly, and I say that as a Fleming fan.

Sometimes the best kind of faithfulness is unfaithfulness.

[Tiin007]

When I first found out that Felix in NSNA was black, I was shocked. I thought it just wouldn't work. Since then, I've only seen NSNA once and I don't remember exactly what I thought of a black Felix.
A few hours ago, when I read that a black actor was going to play Felix in CR, I had my doubts. This type of thing still didn't feel right to me. But then I saw his picture on Mi6.co.uk. Even though I've never actually seen one of Jeffrey Wright's movies, he looks the part. For some reason, he looks like he'd make a great Felix.

[spynovelfan]

For me, the racism of Fleming and some of the early filmmakers is a terrible blot on Bond history. Take (the book) Live and Let Die, for example: the appalling portrait of Harlem and its residents, the preposterous stuff about voodoo, the laughable attempts at reproducing American speech and customs.... Very ugly, and I say that as a Fleming fan.

Am I the only one who doesn't see LALD that way? I did the first time I read it - my late 20th-century kneejerk response to the N-word procluded any great depth of thought on the matter. But I don't think the portrait of Harlem and its residents is racist - or at least, it's not intended to be. Bond says something to the effect that the blacks seem to do just the same as the whites: look for a good time. Felix says something similar, but expresses a smidgeon of anxiety about 'where it will end', or words to that effect. Which would, if anything, make Felix the racist rather than Fleming.

By today's standards, of course LALD is racist. By 1954's, I think it most certainly wasn't. I don't think the speech is laughable - neither did Chandler. I think Fleming was trying - very awkwardly to today's ears, admittedly - to educate what would have been a largely prejudiced white readership. I think the chapter Table Z is an attempt to say 'Look - they're funny, smart, have sex, get jealous, listen to music, just as we do!' The interest seems condescending now, but at least he was interested: very few of his peers were. Very few people in the 1950s would have considered spending two months a year in Jamaica (even could they afford it), and got stuck in as Fleming did. As for the 'preposterous stuff about voodoo' - what preposterous stuff? That's all part of voodoo. And anyway, Big is faking it.

Perhaps I'm reaching because I enjoy the novel so much, but I think it's simplistic to say that LALD is racist and leave it at that. Could be wrong, though.

[David Schofield]

Am I the only one who doesn't see LALD that way?

Could be wrong, though.

No, you're not alone, Spy. Then again, could be because even in 2005 I have Fleming's 1950s values

... but seriously, Fleming WAS certainly far more enlightened than most of his generation and class. it's just that in hindsight with late 20th/early 21st century values, its easy to criticise.

Still, would have prefered THIS Felix to be a lanky, straw-coloured-haired Texan.

[Mister Asterix]

Am I the only one who doesn't see LALD that way?

No, I agree with you.

[spynovelfan]

Phew!

An interesting novel to read to put LIVE AND LET DIE in context is Dennis Wheatley's STRANGE CONFLICT. This was published just 13 years before LALD. The villain is a Haitian practiser of voodoo called Dr Saturday, who is rumoured to be an incarnation of Baron Samedi. Saturday is using his powers to help the Nazis, and a Brit, an American and a couple of beautiful women travel to Jamaica and Haiti to stop him. They're nearly eaten by sharks, too. Fleming would almost certainly have read this book - Wheatley was a hero of British Intelligence during the war and the country's best-selling writer during the 40s. His 1936 novel CONTRABAND starts with a chapter called 'Midnight at the Casino' in which a dark handsome British agent with a facial scar is gambling in Deauville casino. Anyway, STRANGE CONFLICT has such overt racism it's sometimes quite hard to read: lots of exposition about how the blacks have frittered away their country because they're lazy, and so on. The white characters clearly view black people as lazy, stupid and/or evil. This was fairly typical of thrillers of the 40s and 50s. I think Fleming subtly subverted it - he wanted to take his readers inside a club in Harlem and show them what it was really like. Coming from him, the idea of the first great black criminal mastermind was a mark of admiration! Naive and ill-conceived it certainly is by today's standards. Put it up against Wheatley and others of that time, though, and it's a little more understandable, I think.

[Simon Beavis]

Maybe this Felix can stick around as long as Craig. It was a little headache inducing to see Felix change physical characteristics so many times. They should try to stick to one actor like M, Q, and Moneypenny from now on, recasting whenever there's a new Bond so the two characters can be the same age.

[Captain Grimes]

By today's standards, of course LALD is racist. By 1954's, I think it most certainly wasn't. I don't think the speech is laughable - neither did Chandler. I think Fleming was trying - very awkwardly to today's ears, admittedly - to educate what would have been a largely prejudiced white readership.

Well, if you limit the discussion to popular adventure novels of the time, then yes, LALD is certainly less racist than many others. But let's be clear: many books written before 1954 were infinitely better on this score. Twain wrote Huckleberry Finn in 1884, and already he was very astutely lampooning people like Fleming, 20-odd years before Ian was born. (And, incidentally, I don't think the argument that Fleming was just a man of his times cuts it. Twain was born to a poor family in a part of Missouri that is still quite racist--a world, in other words, much less cultured and sophisticated than Fleming's.)

Of course, nobody's perfect. I don't think Fleming was a bad guy, and it's easy to criticize someone who's been dead all these years. Much of my dislike of LALD comes from some of Fleming's writerly choices. My feeling is that you shouldn't try reproducing speech phonenetically unless you have an uncommonly good ear. Fleming, for all his travels, didn't have a good ear, and as a result the phonetic dialogue he puts in black characters' mouths comes across as cartoonish and cruel. (Contrast this, again, to Twain, who had a very deep understanding and love of American black English.)

So, yes, Fleming was certainly better than most, but I don't think we should cut him too much slack. Racism is racism, and there were far more enlightened writers long before Fleming.

[Kissy]

Shame that Sherif JW Pepper isn't back.
With the new Black felix, there could be a lot of great scenes!

[Kara Milovy]

Felix Leiter in the novels represents Fleming's idealized American. Fleming's racism is inarguable; throughout the novel, personality is determined by race. Every nation and every color leaves an indelible mark on who you are, so much so that Fleming invariably represented confusion and anxiety by having characters be of a mixed background.

But to Fleming, the perfect American was the open, friendly, white Texan. Leiter never had much of a personality beyond that; he was cheerful, he was brave in the face of adversity, he was welcoming; he was America as represented in a person.

There is no doubt that a wide variety of American actors can play that role. Eon and Sony wanted a name actor for Felix, and they found one. They wanted a talent to balance Craig, and they found one. They probably also wanted to race eyebrows, and come into the 21st century, and they did that as well.

When a specific person has specific characteristics, you cast for that. James Bond is a very specific person; white, British, of a particular body type, age range, etc. It would be problematic to change any of those things. Other characters are more plastic.

I think LeChiffre as a skinny and young actor changes something of the character; he is no longer the self-indulgent, corrupt glutton. But if he were a black self-indulgent, corrupt glutton, then he would still be Fleming's character.

Michael Clarke Duncan was right for the Kingpin in DAREDEVIL. Steve Buscemi would have been wrong as the Kingpin. Even though the Kingpin was white in the comics, he was also huge, powerful, and imposing. The essence of the character in that case was his size and force, not his color.

What I'm saying is, all casting can't be color-blind. But if you're true to a character, a lot more casting can be color-blind than kneejerk reaction might have it.

And Jeffrey Wright; let's face it--great actor!

My feeling is that you shouldn't try reproducing speech phonenetically unless you have an uncommonly good ear. Fleming, for all his travels, didn't have a good ear, and as a result the phonetic dialogue he puts in black characters' mouths comes across as cartoonish and cruel.

Fleming's American dialect was all very bad. His gangsters in TSWLM and DAF were ridiculous. Not his strength.

[Gabe Vieira]

Jeffrey Wright is a great actor and a great adition to the already awesome cast. I think that having an African-American Felix Leiter is a great idea because, really, I, and probably a lot of other people, didn't see it coming. Totally blew me out of the water. Haveing an African-American Felix is a great way to reboot the series.

Still, Josh Holloway is the splitting image of Felix in the novel.

[Captain Grimes]

Brilliant post, Kara. And agreed on American dialect.

[Seannery]

Speaking of racism, I always felt in DN with Quarrel(sp)--fetch my shoes!--and FRWL with the heavyhanded portrayal of the gypsies both show dated and cringe worthy racial attitudes at the least.

[Mister Asterix]

Nice post, Kara.

Michael Clarke Duncan was right for the Kingpin in DAREDEVIL.

Not completely with you on this though. John Rhys-Davies was a much better Kingpin when he played him. Nothing to do with race though, Rhys-Davies just had a better screen presence.

[spynovelfan]

By today's standards, of course LALD is racist. By 1954's, I think it most certainly wasn't. I don't think the speech is laughable - neither did Chandler. I think Fleming was trying - very awkwardly to today's ears, admittedly - to educate what would have been a largely prejudiced white readership.

Well, if you limit the discussion to popular adventure novels of the time, then yes, LALD is certainly less racist than many others. But let's be clear: many books written before 1954 were infinitely better on this score. Twain wrote Huckleberry Finn in 1884, and already he was very astutely lampooning people like Fleming, 20-odd years before Ian was born. (And, incidentally, I don't think the argument that Fleming was just a man of his times cuts it. Twain was born to a poor family in a part of Missouri that is still quite racist--a world, in other words, much less cultured and sophisticated than Fleming's.)

Of course, nobody's perfect. I don't think Fleming was a bad guy, and it's easy to criticize someone who's been dead all these years. Much of my dislike of LALD comes from some of Fleming's writerly choices. My feeling is that you shouldn't try reproducing speech phonenetically unless you have an uncommonly good ear. Fleming, for all his travels, didn't have a good ear, and as a result the phonetic dialogue he puts in black characters' mouths comes across as cartoonish and cruel. (Contrast this, again, to Twain, who had a very deep understanding and love of American black English.)

So, yes, Fleming was certainly better than most, but I don't think we should cut him too much slack. Racism is racism, and there were far more enlightened writers long before Fleming.

Fair enough. I think what I'm trying to say is that Fleming may have been racist, but he was at least trying not to be! If that makes sense. The likes of Dennis Wheatley would have unblinkingly told you that they felt white people were better than black people: cleverer, more sophisticated, more decent. He says as much in his books, many times. I don't think Fleming would have said the same. I think, with that rather squeezed drawl of his, he would have said something like: "Well, I don't think you can generalise too much, you know. Can we? I mean, there are bound to be bad apples, of course, of course there are, there are bad ones among us, too - Philby - but I think it's a lot about education. I've found some really terrific people in Jamaica, and I'd trade them any day of the week for the crowd you get at Whites these days..." As I say, perhaps I'm reaching. But I also think it's reaching to judge someone as a racist from a few scenes in one novel. I don't think the dialogue in the club is cruel - cartoonish, perhaps. But Twain had a big advantage in that he was surrounded by that speech, was seeped in it, was used to it. I'm writing a book set in Africa, and I've had the hell of a time with speech. I grew up in Africa, and spoke fluent pidgin English as a child, most of which I still remember. But if you transcribe pidgin English perfectly, it looks racist. It isn't - that is the language people speak in parts of Africa. But it looks like a lampoon if you replace 'There' with 'Dere'. It looks like you're saying these people are simple-minded. What's the way round that, really? In pidgin English, 'there' is pronounced 'dere'. Incidentally, hasn't Mark Twain been banned in schools in the past for being perceived as racist?

I also don't think this is just about thrillers of the 50s. A lot of people in England at that time were racist. I'm not saying this gives Fleming an opt-out. But how many white people do you think of that era would have sat down to relish a Jamaican stew for dinner? Fleming set several of his novels in Jamaica - not, as Wheatley and others did, because they were representations of an exotic evil. But because he loved the place.

I just think simply saying Fleming was racist is a little unfair on him. Isn't it a little more complicated than that?

[Mister Asterix]

Speaking of racism, I always felt in DN with Quarrel(sp)--fetch my shoes!

[mra]Never agreed with

[Qwerty]

The only thing I don't like about CR is that Felix is black!

Well...why though?

[Seannery]

By today's standards, of course LALD is racist. By 1954's, I think it most certainly wasn't. I don't think the speech is laughable - neither did Chandler. I think Fleming was trying - very awkwardly to today's ears, admittedly - to educate what would have been a largely prejudiced white readership.

Well, if you limit the discussion to popular adventure novels of the time, then yes, LALD is certainly less racist than many others. But let's be clear: many books written before 1954 were infinitely better on this score. Twain wrote Huckleberry Finn in 1884, and already he was very astutely lampooning people like Fleming, 20-odd years before Ian was born. (And, incidentally, I don't think the argument that Fleming was just a man of his times cuts it. Twain was born to a poor family in a part of Missouri that is still quite racist--a world, in other words, much less cultured and sophisticated than Fleming's.)

Of course, nobody's perfect. I don't think Fleming was a bad guy, and it's easy to criticize someone who's been dead all these years. Much of my dislike of LALD comes from some of Fleming's writerly choices. My feeling is that you shouldn't try reproducing speech phonenetically unless you have an uncommonly good ear. Fleming, for all his travels, didn't have a good ear, and as a result the phonetic dialogue he puts in black characters' mouths comes across as cartoonish and cruel. (Contrast this, again, to Twain, who had a very deep understanding and love of American black English.)

So, yes, Fleming was certainly better than most, but I don't think we should cut him too much slack. Racism is racism, and there were far more enlightened writers long before Fleming.

Fair enough. I think what I'm trying to say is that Fleming may have been racist, but he was at least trying not to be! If that makes sense. The likes of Dennis Wheatley would have unblinkingly told you that they felt white people were better than black people: cleverer, more sophisticated, more decent. He says as much in his books, many times. I don't think Fleming would have said the same. I think, with that rather squeezed drawl of his, he would have said something like: "Well, I don't think you can generalise too much, you know. Can we? I mean, there are bound to be bad apples, of course, of course there are, there are bad ones among us, too - Philby - but I think it's a lot about education. I've found some really terrific people in Jamaica, and I'd trade them any day of the week for the crowd you get at Whites these days..." As I say, perhaps I'm reaching. But I also think it's reaching to judge someone as a racist from a few scenes in one novel. I don't think the dialogue in the club is cruel - cartoonish, perhaps. But Twain had a big advantage in that he was surrounded by that speech, was seeped in it, was used to it. I'm writing a book set in Africa, and I've had the hell of a time with speech. I grew up in Africa, and spoke fluent pidgin English as a child, most of which I still remember. But if you transcribe pidgin English perfectly, it looks racist. It isn't - that is the language people speak in parts of Africa. But it looks like a lampoon if you replace 'There' with 'Dere'. It looks like you're saying these people are simple-minded. What's the way round that, really? In pidgin English, 'there' is pronounced 'dere'. Incidentally, hasn't Mark Twain been banned in schools in the past for being perceived as racist?

I also don't think this is just about thrillers of the 50s. A lot of people in England at that time were racist. I'm not saying this gives Fleming an opt-out. But how many white people do you think of that era would have sat down to relish a Jamaican stew for dinner? Fleming set several of his novels in Jamaica - not, as Wheatley and others did, because they were representations of an exotic evil. But because he loved the place.

I just think simply saying Fleming was racist is a little unfair on him. Isn't it at a little more complicated than that?

I see your point Spy and yes I would say it's more complicated than that--probably more of it was unconscious and that seeped into the novels. Plus as mentioned earlier he was clumsy with the dialogue and not very subtle in portraying some of his characters--especially those not much like him.

[spynovelfan]

Felix Leiter in the novels represents Fleming's idealized American. Fleming's racism is inarguable; throughout the novel, personality is determined by race. Every nation and every color leaves an indelible mark on who you are, so much so that Fleming invariably represented confusion and anxiety by having characters be of a mixed background.

But to Fleming, the perfect American was the open, friendly, white Texan. Leiter never had much of a personality beyond that; he was cheerful, he was brave in the face of adversity, he was welcoming; he was America as represented in a person.

There is no doubt that a wide variety of American actors can play that role. Eon and Sony wanted a name actor for Felix, and they found one. They wanted a talent to balance Craig, and they found one. They probably also wanted to race eyebrows, and come into the 21st century, and they did that as well.

When a specific person has specific characteristics, you cast for that. James Bond is a very specific person; white, British, of a particular body type, age range, etc. It would be problematic to change any of those things. Other characters are more plastic.

I think LeChiffre as a skinny and young actor changes something of the character; he is no longer the self-indulgent, corrupt glutton. But if he were a black self-indulgent, corrupt glutton, then he would still be Fleming's character.

Michael Clarke Duncan was right for the Kingpin in DAREDEVIL. Steve Buscemi would have been wrong as the Kingpin. Even though the Kingpin was white in the comics, he was also huge, powerful, and imposing. The essence of the character in that case was his size and force, not his color.

What I'm saying is, all casting can't be color-blind. But if you're true to a character, a lot more casting can be color-blind than kneejerk reaction might have it.

And Jeffrey Wright; let's face it--great actor!

Great post - agreed with it all.

Fleming's American dialect was all very bad. His gangsters in TSWLM and DAF were ridiculous. Not his strength.

I don't know. Isn't it partly rdiculous because we know it's an upper-class Englishman writing the words? Is it so different from Chandler (who went to Dulwich College!)? All pulp gangster speak is pretty silly from our vantagepoint, and I do think it's more the idea of that rather sad-faced aristrocratic chap with the cigarette holder on the back of the book trying to do it that makes us so aware that it's false. But that language was always false to a degree - pulp gangsters never really existed.

[TheREAL008]

This should all work out really well in the end. If Craig doesn't make a good Bond...not that I'm hoping he does or doesn't....at least the cast will have something to show off.

[Stratus]

They should have gotten a black M instead of a black Felix if they wanted political correctness. This would have solved the Dench continuity problem and still fill their urge of being politically correct. Don't tell me EON didn't have this in mind, Bond doesn't bloody smoke anymore for one thing. Let's just hope Bond doesn't get emasculated by Dench to please the feminists.

[Seannery]

[quote name='Mister Asterix' post='519476' date='17 February 2006 - 17:50']
[quote name='Seannery' post='519468' date='17 February 2006 - 10:45']
Speaking of racism, I always felt in DN with Quarrel(sp)--fetch my shoes!
[/quote]

[mra]Never agreed with

[spynovelfan]

Much of my dislike of LALD comes from some of Fleming's writerly choices. My feeling is that you shouldn't try reproducing speech phonenetically unless you have an uncommonly good ear. Fleming, for all his travels, didn't have a good ear, and as a result the phonetic dialogue he puts in black characters' mouths comes across as cartoonish and cruel.

Hmmm...

Isn't this saying he wasn't a very good writer of dialogue, though, rather than that he was a racist? If he had had a poor ear for white upper-class English idiom, would he have necessarily disliked white upper-class English people? Not having a good ear for how blacks in Harlem spoke isn't the same as being a racist, is it?

[Captain Grimes]

Spynovelfan,

Agreed on almost every point. Yes, it is too simplistic to call Fleming just a racist--I tried in my earlier post to allude to some of the shades of grey, but probably didn't make it clear enough.

I think a lot of his trouble was poorly handled dialect; as you say, it's hard to do that in a way that doesn't come across badly. Twain handled it masterfully, but there are still readers stupid enough to think if an author uses the n-word, he's racist (which is why Huck Finn has been banned in the States). Really it's a subjective judgment. I think Fleming failed and Twain succeeded, but it's difficult to explain why. That's why I think almost every writer is better off writing all dialogue in standard English, using only rhythm and vocabulary to get the accent across. Even dropping g's at the end of verbs can look very silly if not done well.

That said, if you compare Fleming to one of my favorite authors, Evelyn Waugh, who in my opinion handled dialogue better than anyone since Jane Austen, Fleming is clearly the more enlightened of the two. Even though Fleming's race-related writing seems clunky and confused, you do get the sense that he was a basically fair-minded guy who had picked up some silly ideas that were current at the time. Contrast that to Waugh, who was never clunky or confused, but consistently presented a superior and snobbish tone. The racism in Scoop and Black Mischief is largely subtextual, but it's much more virulent, in my opinion, than what you find in Fleming.

Okay, lecture over.

[spynovelfan]

I'll take that post, Captain. Agree with you there.

[JimmyBond]

I like the casting of Wright, not only because I think he's a great actor. But also because I like the fact that EON didnt take the easy path, everything about this film is the road less travelled for them, and I really hope it works out

[zencat]

A black felix this isn’t a joke, isn’t? This is almost as wrong as Bond played by an Indian. I really liked Jeffrey Wright in Broken Flowers and in Angels in America, but c’mon Felix is white. If they wanted a black actor, they should have casted a black henchman for Lechiffre.

Nonsense. There's absolutely no reason Felix can't be black (or, rather, needs to be white). All he "needs" to be is American. Besides, this isn't new. Bernie Casey played Felix in NSNA. It worked then, it'll work now, and Wright is a very soild actor. He's a great choice.

[Captain Grimes]

I'll take that post, Captain. Agree with you there.

And who said there isn't intelligent conversation on the internet?

[Carver]

I'm still in two minds about this casting. Yes, Bernie Casey was a great Felix in NSNA, but it wasn't an official Bond film, and I don't consider it as a proper Bond film amongst the others. I haven't seen Jeffrey Wright act, but being as so many people say what a great actor he is then I trust he will give a great portrayal as Felix. However, I'm still pretty shocked that EON went with a black Felix. I'm no racist, in fact I'm very anti-racist considering that my father is a racist, but having a black Felix is a no-no for me. I've stated a lot on these forums that I'm in the crowd for continuity in the Bond films. Sure, I understand why so many people don't consider any continuity aspects and I respect their opinions, but personally I have always seen the films as a continuous series. So that's why I'm shocked that EOn cast a black actor as Felix Leiter. I mean, how are they going to explain this? From Felix being a white guy 7 times (albeit with differing features, like Bond) to suddenly turning black? However much I trust EON, I'm seriously doubting them on this one. Yes, we Bond fans have great knowledge of the books and films, but let's face it- a lot of the box office money depends on Joe Public. Being as we've seen Felix as a white guy so many times, won't there be a backlash now we have a black Felix? Then again, I can see how EON have come up with this casting- being as Felix was last seen 17 years ago, many of the general film going public will have forgotten who he is and what he looks like, so I can see it from that point of view.
I am considering that this is a reboot aswell. We've got a brand new Bond, no Q or Moneypenny, a new perspective of the films and a completely different Felix, so yes there was bound to be some radical change in order to follow this "reboot" ideal.
I've said this many times on here- with each new, seemingly surprising casting (Craig, Mikkelsen and now Wright), I've always said I'll wait until the film cones out before casting any final judgements. Yes, I have my reservations about how I see the castings, but I won't say quite yet if I'm completely against them. Many of you have said what a great actor Wright is, and so I trust that we'll see a great portrayal of Felix Leiter in Casino Royale. I'll wait til November before I'll judge Mr Wright. Roll on November