22 replies to this topic

[Qwerty]

This article has been on CommanderBond.net since October of 2002, but I was reading it the other day and didn't see a discussion thread. Just decided to make one in case any others had discovered this review by Icephoenix.

A WIN for Gardner: 'Win, Lose Or Die'
A review by Chris Bennett

[Lazenby880]

Interesting little review there. WIN, LOSE OR DIE is one of the Gardners that does not register a particularly significant impact on me. It is not very good or very bad, but compared with his earlier stuff it is not very memorable. Moreover, the changes to the character were dealt with reasonably proficiently but it does feel like a perhaps unnecessary attempt to make OO7 his own, and I can appreciate why many fans were subsequently alienated.

Still, collectively, I do believe that Gardner's contribution to the literary James Bond is undervalued by most.

Edited by Lazenby880, 11 February 2006 - 04:50 PM.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Interesting little review there. WIN, LOSE OR DIE is one of the Gardners that does not register a particularly significant impact on me. It is not very good or very bad, but compared with his earlier stuff it is not very memorable. Moreover, the changes to the character were dealt with reasonably proficiently but it does feel like a perhaps unnecessary attempt to make OO7 his own, and I can appreciate why many fans were subsequently alienated.

Still, collectively, I do believe that Gardner's contribution to the literary James Bond is undervalued by most.

I agree. John Gardner has a lot of good stuff in his 007 novels. True, there may be a few too many double-crossers and such, and sure, he is no Ian Fleming, but he does have some good plots and good characters and he kept Bond going for nearly 15 years. For that we should all be grateful.

[Qwerty]

It's generally looked upon as an average James Bond continuation novel I would say. The Captain Bond bit may turn off some of the literary 007 fans of course. It was one of the most difficult Gardner's for me to track down, but it was a pleasent surprise compared with some of his others - I would certainly recommend it as one of the better books in the rollercoaster ride that is the Gardner run after Nobody Lives Forever.

[JKD68]

In my opinion WL or D was the last good Bond novel Gardner wrote. After that, they started to really detoriate.

[Flash1087]

Oddly, these are some of the first positive words about WLD I've read.

I haven't tackled it myself; I've taken upon the folly of trying to read all the Gardner and Bensons after I finished everything Fleming did last year, and it's not going too well. I finished Scorpius a few months ago, so WLD is next, I just...can't find one anywhere, and I hate ordering stuff online.

[Qwerty]

and I hate ordering stuff online.

I love it.

Trust me though, just find a nice Buy-It-Now on on eBay and your set.

[Flash1087]

I, oddly enough, discovered Win, Lose, Or Die not long ago in a second hand store for fifty cents, so I picked up that, Role of Honor, and No Deals Mr. Bond, all hardcover.

Frankly, I didn't much care for it. The twists were telegraphed from miles away, none of the deaths really affected me, and it only picked up at the very very end aboard the Invincible and then dropped off when Bond and whatshername go to kill the one guy.

See? That's how little an impression it left on me.

Edited by Flash1087, 15 March 2006 - 04:03 AM.

[Doctor Shatterhand]

I, oddly enough, discovered Win, Lose, Or Die not long ago in a second hand store for fifty cents, so I picked up that, Role of Honor, and No Deals Mr. Bond, all hardcover.

Frankly, I didn't much care for it. The twists were telegraphed from miles away, none of the deaths really affected me, and it only picked up at the very very end aboard the Invincible and then dropped off when Bond and whatshername go to kill the one guy.

See? That's how little an impression it left on me.

Not my favorite of the Gardner era either. It falls in the fair pile. Not a bad try though placing Bond back in the Navy.

Now, if you really want to read a good Gardner/Bond novel, I suggest NOBODY LIVES FOREVER. Great chase story and a fantastic ending to SPECTRE. Prior novel ROLE OF HONOUR introduces the new head of SPECTRE.

[DLibrasnow]

In my opinion WL or D was the last good Bond novel Gardner wrote. After that, they started to really detoriate.

No, I don't agree with this assessment. I think Never Send Flowers was a very good James Bond novel and both Death Is Forever and SeaFire were better than Win, Lose Or Die.

By the way, the article is in serious need of some editing.

[dinovelvet]

Just read Win, Lose or Die, and I enjoyed it! I didn't expect to, after the mundane No Deals,Mr.Bond, and the prospect of a book that mostly takes place on an aircraft carrier didn't sound too appealing, but it surprised me. The pacing was much better than the last couple of Gardner books, and he seemed to be having fun with his (by now) cliched 'traitor' angle, by letting us know early on that there is going to be a traitor somewhere, and he plays a good game of "is she or isn't she" with Clover Pennington.
It also seemed a bit more cinematic than most of his other books, there are plenty of action scenes and there seemed to be some riffing on OHMSS with the whole death at Christmas bit (though in true Gardner fashion, she shows up alive again later )
Anyway it was a pretty good read overall. I'm glad I didn't read the blurb on the back of the novel that says Bond has to save Bush, Thatcher and Gorbachev, since it isn't even revealed that those three are in the story until two thirds of the way in! My Gardner ratings are now :

Win : Licence Renewed, For Special Services, Nobody Lives Forever, Scorpius, Licence to Kill, Win Lose or Die

Lose : Icebreaker, Role of Honor, No Deals Mr.Bond

Die : The Man from Barbarossa

[DLibrasnow]

Our tastes are obviously very different.

Win : Licence Renewed, Icebreaker, Role of Honor, No Deals Mr Bond, Scorpius, Never Send Flowers, Death is Forever, SeaFire.

Lose : For Special Services, Nobody Lives Forever, Win Lose or Die, Licence to Kill.

Die : The Man from Barbarossa, Brokenclaw.

[B007GLE]

I've mentioned this elsewhere in other threads but here it is again:

I am an attoreny and quite few years ago I was stuck in the Bronx County Courthouse to argue a motion. I sat down at 9:30 and did n't get up to argue the motion until around 1:30.

In that four hours I read most of WLD. For me it was like sitting in a movie theater. the book breezed by and it has always held a somewhat special place for me amoung Gardner novels.

[dinovelvet]

Our tastes are obviously very different.

Win : Licence Renewed, Icebreaker, Role of Honor, No Deals Mr Bond, Scorpius, Never Send Flowers, Death is Forever, SeaFire.

Lose : For Special Services, Nobody Lives Forever, Win Lose or Die, Licence to Kill.

Die : The Man from Barbarossa, Brokenclaw.

Heh Brokenclaw is next on my list (whenever I get hold of it). The brief description I read of it sounded good to me...San Francisco, Chinese/Indian deformed villain. Can't be as dull as Barbarossa can it?

[Qwerty]

Can't be as dull as Barbarossa can it?

Personally, no. But Brokenclaw seems to definitely be one that divides Bond fans.

[Flash1087]

I, oddly enough, discovered Win, Lose, Or Die not long ago in a second hand store for fifty cents, so I picked up that, Role of Honor, and No Deals Mr. Bond, all hardcover.

Frankly, I didn't much care for it. The twists were telegraphed from miles away, none of the deaths really affected me, and it only picked up at the very very end aboard the Invincible and then dropped off when Bond and whatshername go to kill the one guy.

See? That's how little an impression it left on me.

Not my favorite of the Gardner era either. It falls in the fair pile. Not a bad try though placing Bond back in the Navy.

Now, if you really want to read a good Gardner/Bond novel, I suggest NOBODY LIVES FOREVER. Great chase story and a fantastic ending to SPECTRE. Prior novel ROLE OF HONOUR introduces the new head of SPECTRE.

I've actually read both of those (and liked both), but I had them in a 'three-in-one' collection volume. I bought those because I wanted them seperately, and they were only fifty cents apiece.

[Genrewriter]

Re-read this this afternoon. Pretty great for the most part though the endless twists get a tad tiresome, but with Gardner that's just par for the course.

[Jericho_One]

I particularly liked this novel because it sent Bond temporarily back to his military origins. I liked that a lot. I could really see him walking the decks in uniform, and piloting the Sea Harriers. The numerous plot twists "a la Gardner" are not that fun, but the story was refreshing by setting Bond onboard the HMS Invincible as a naval captain.

Edited by Jericho_One, 19 June 2006 - 10:28 PM.

[Qwerty]

Welcome to the CBn Forums, Jericho_One.

[Jericho_One]

Thank you very much, Qwerty.

[Qwerty]

Hope you enjoy it here.

[Jericho_One]

Thanks! I'm already enjoying it! Semi-holidays, too much time on my hands...

[Johnboy007]

The one thing about this book I absolutely hate is the promotion to Captain. Commander James Bond is one of those things you simply cannot mess with.

Besides: commanderbond.net sounds so much cooler than captainbond.net