26 replies to this topic

[dinovelvet]

After a hiatus from reading John Gardner books (I was nearly scared off after struggling through The Man from Barbarossa and gave up after about 7 or 8 chapters of No Deals, Mr.Bond), I found Scorpius in a used bookstore for two bucks so I figured I might have a go at it; I was there looking for Raymond Benson books but came up empty handed!
Anyway, I kind of enjoyed it. The religious cult/suicide bombers angle was something different and made for interesting reading. I can see it working as a movie adaptation today, it would have relevance with the suicide bombers, although the story should probably be adapted so that its a worldwide threat, maybe that way we could get some locations that are a bit more exotic than Chichester and Glastonbury
Its not a book I'll ever read again, probably, but so far its right in the middle of the pack, out of all the Gardner books I've read. My Gardner scorecard thus far is :

Thumbs up : Licence Renewed, For Special Services, Nobody Lives Forever
Thumbs down : Icebreaker, The Man from Barbarossa, No Deals,Mr.Bond (at least the first 7/8 chapters of it! Does it get any better?)

Anyway up next, while I wait for a Benson book to come my way, I will tackle Role of Honor.

[Qwerty]

Be sure to check out these article as well: http://debrief.comma...showtopic=24071

Scorpius is a true middle of the road John Gardner book for me. It's not one that I'd immediately suggest to someone who wants to start reading the Gardner novels, but I'd certainly place it higher than some of his others.

[K1Bond007]

After a hiatus from reading John Gardner books (I was nearly scared off after struggling through The Man from Barbarossa and gave up after about 7 or 8 chapters of No Deals, Mr.Bond), I found Scorpius in a used bookstore for two bucks so I figured I might have a go at it; I was there looking for Raymond Benson books but came up empty handed!
  Anyway, I kind of enjoyed it. The religious cult/suicide bombers angle was something different and made for interesting reading. I can see it working as a movie adaptation today, it would have relevance with the suicide bombers, although the story should probably be adapted so that its a worldwide threat, maybe that way we could get some locations that are a bit more exotic than Chichester and Glastonbury 
  Its not a book I'll ever read again, probably, but so far its right in the middle of the pack, out of all the Gardner books I've read. My Gardner scorecard thus far is :

Thumbs up : Licence Renewed, For Special Services, Nobody Lives Forever
Thumbs down : Icebreaker, The Man from Barbarossa, No Deals,Mr.Bond (at least the first 7/8 chapters of it! Does it get any better?)

Anyway up next, while I wait for a Benson book to come my way, I will tackle Role of Honor.

I've only read up through Scorpius, but I pretty much agree with what you're saying. I actually liked Scorpius. It was one of the few by Gardner that didn't feel outdated, in fact it was probably the most relevant of all his and Fleming's in today's society. Although this has to do with some psychotic cult, the book obviously has a lot of parallels with the War on Terrorism and Al-Qaeda.

I haven't finished reading Gardner's but I'd say Nobody Lives Forever, Scorpius, and Role of Honour are the best. Depending on the day, Licence Renewed and For Special Services are also good. The rest are so-so or ... obnoxious - while original, a lot of them feel reused. Who is the traitor/mole whatever. It gets old real fast - Icebreaker is one of the most frustrating books I've ever read in this respect.

[dinovelvet]

I haven't finished reading Gardner's but I'd say Nobody Lives Forever, Scorpius, and Role of Honour are the best. Depending on the day, Licence Renewed and For Special Services are also good. The rest are so-so or ... obnoxious - while original, a lot of them feel reused. Who is the traitor/mole whatever. It gets old real fast - Icebreaker is one of the most frustrating books I've ever read in this respect.

Yeah I found Icebreaker to be bordering on self-parody at times. Every single character is either a double-crosser or a triple-crosser. There may have even been a quadruple-crosser in there somewhere, I really can't remember!
Another thing that's kind of offputting about Gardner is that many of the locations he uses are just mundane. Like I mentioned earlier, Scorpius features such exciting locales as Hereford, Chichester, and Glastonbury. Even when Gardner takes us to America, he still manages to pick rather dull places - South Carolina in Scorpius, the middle of the Texas desert in For Special Services. Although I did like the use of Key West in Nobody Lives Forever. A lot of the fun of Fleming (and the one Benson I've read) is the travelogue feel, which is just completely absent from Gardner. They take you to places you'd really want to go, whereas Gardner takes you to places you really don't want to go - Finland in the middle of winter? Amarillo, Texas? Chichester?! How glamorous

[Qwerty]

One interesting thing about forum members' reactions to this book on CBn is that generally, it is not liked very much at all. I recall when putting together the Looking Back article on it that the majority of the reviews were negative.

[addyb]

Scorpius isn't bad, the marriage bit was interesting. I first discovered Gardner's Bond novels at a public library here in town, they have all of his in hardcover. I had previously read Fleming's, and then worked my forward in time. They also have Benson's TMWTRT, but I don't even want to get into that, Benson fans would shoot me.

To be completely honest, and feel free to scorn me on this one, but I actually prefer John Gardner's version of 007 over all others, including Fleming. Mind you, not all of his novels, but most of them.

Truth be told, Gardner's version of 007 has little in common with Fleming's creation, or the version that Benson decided to ressurect. He is definately not the hard drinking, heavy smoking womanizer that sold so many books in the 1950's and early '60s. But I do think that every character needs to grow and expand a bit, and I believe that Gardner did a lovely job of it.

An aspect of Gardner's Bond that I've always liked are his real-world "gee whizz" gadgets and his knowledge of tradecraft, something I've found to be lacking in Fleming's Cold-War epics. I'll never forget reading Casino Royale, and smiling at the chapter where Bond and Felix meet with Vesper in the restaurant, use first names, and talk freely about the mission. Gardner's Bond would never have done that, he would've been too paranoid about bugs, watchers and the like.

It's too bad that the general public didn't approve of what Gardner tried to do. I certainly did.

Cheers,

Adam

Edited by addyb, 29 January 2006 - 04:28 PM.

[dinovelvet]

An aspect of Gardner's Bond that I've always liked are his real-world "gee whizz" gadgets and his knowledge of tradecraft, something I've found to be lacking in Fleming's Cold-War epics. I'll never forget reading Casino Royale, and smiling at the chapter where Bond and Felix meet with Vesper in the restaurant, use first names, and talk freely about the mission. Gardner's Bond would never have done that, he would've been too paranoid about bugs, watchers and the like.

Well part of the appeal of Fleming's Bond is that he is a fantasy figure who goes to exotic places and deals with larger-than-life villains. It's meant as entertainment, not a realistic portrayal of the activities of a spy. Considering that Fleming's plots involve a man with metal hands who keeps a pet giant squid, a Nazi disguised as a British aristocrat who wants to drop an atomic bomb on London, a voodoo worshipping New York gangster, an appearance-changing madman who lives in a castle surrounded by poisonous plants etc, he isn't going for realism. Only From Russia With Love has strong ties to 'real world' espionage.
I agree that Gardner's Bond is probably a much more realistic Cold War spy, with all the grim European locations, double crosses, code names, paranoia and everything else that goes with it. But this kind of stuff isn't why I got into James Bond in the first place. I like the fantasy elements and the larger-than-life world domination plots, and the tongue-in-cheek elements. Obviously Gardner does not

[MarcAngeDraco]

Anyway up next, while I wait for a Benson book to come my way, I will tackle Role of Honor.

Good choice! Role of Honor is probably my favorite of the Gardner books.

[Qwerty]

Anyway up next, while I wait for a Benson book to come my way, I will tackle Role of Honor.

Good choice! Role of Honor is probably my favorite of the Gardner books.

I think it's actually one of his lesser books. In my opinion, the weakest of his first five (which are generally regarded by fans to be the best Gardner "run".)

[dinovelvet]

Anyway up next, while I wait for a Benson book to come my way, I will tackle Role of Honor.

Good choice! Role of Honor is probably my favorite of the Gardner books.

I think it's actually one of his lesser books. In my opinion, the weakest of his first five (which are generally regarded by fans to be the best Gardner "run".)

Just read through the first few chapters of RoH. Plot appears to be about computer simulations/games so far, though I assume this Rahani bloke will show up sooner or later (I'm reading this as a prequel to Nobody Lives Forever!). I see we already have a typical Gardner exotic location...a village in Oxfordshire

Edited by dinovelvet, 30 January 2006 - 12:28 AM.

[Qwerty]

Anyway up next, while I wait for a Benson book to come my way, I will tackle Role of Honor.

Good choice! Role of Honor is probably my favorite of the Gardner books.

I think it's actually one of his lesser books. In my opinion, the weakest of his first five (which are generally regarded by fans to be the best Gardner "run".)

Just read through the first few chapters of RoH. Plot appears to be about computer simulations/games so far, though I assume this Rahani bloke will show up sooner or later (I'm reading this as a prequel to Nobody Lives Forever!). I see we already have a typical Gardner exotic location...a village in Oxfordshire

Yes...

/spoiler.gif

[this may not be spoiler-worthy, but nonetheless] Role Of Honour is the middle book of the SPECTRE/Rahani trilogy. I believe he shows up here and there in this one, but not the main focus.

/gen_line.gif

[Diabolik]

I agree with most of the comments that Scorpius is middle of the road, but I think it would make a good premises and good title for a Bond film (with a new writer giving a stab at it, loosely basing it on the book -- like many Bond films).

While most of Gardner's books aren't great, he had some good plot ideas. One that no one has mentioned here is Brokenclaw. Another story with a good plot that wasn't well executed), but a great colorful villian (which I think has been lacking in the films of late). Also, a very Flemingesque title.

In regards to No Deals, Mr. Bond, Qwerty, I would suggest you go back and finish it. While it starts out meandering, it is one of my favorite Gardner's after it gets going.

My favorite "Gardner" was Nobody Lives Forever, though. What a great set-up (I can't believe they haven't used it in a film). A bounty on 007's head (decapitated). But unlike TMWTGG, not just one assasin, but an "open call" to all baddies to bring him in first. The finale was very entertaining.

[dinovelvet]

In regards to No Deals, Mr. Bond, Qwerty, I would suggest you go back and finish it.  While it starts out meandering, it is one of my favorite Gardner's after it gets going. 

Actually it was me who gave up on that one I got to the point where Bond and the girl were in a hotel somewhere in Ireland and I realized that not only hadn't I the slightest idea what was going on in this book, but I had no desire to find out, either. I'll take another crack at it when I'm feeling more patient!

[Diabolik]

[quote name='dinovelvet' date='29 January 2006 - 19:11'][quote name='Diabolik' date='29 January 2006 - 18:04']

In regards to No Deals, Mr. Bond, Qwerty, I would suggest you go back and finish it.

[Flash1087]

Oddly, I just finished Scorpius last week. Frankly, I really liked it. I actually liked it better than "Nobody Lives Forever" and a little better than "No Deals, Mr. Bond" (I'm trying to read them in order, but I'm not having much luck finding "Win, Lose, Or Die"). I thought Scorpius was a fairly interesting character and the way Bond dealt with him at the end was classic.

Edited by Flash1087, 30 January 2006 - 02:01 AM.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I agree with most of the comments that Scorpius is middle of the road, but I think it would make a good premises and good title for a Bond film (with a new writer giving a stab at it, loosely basing it on the book -- like many Bond films). 

While most of Gardner's books aren't great, he had some good plot ideas.  One that no one has mentioned here is Brokenclaw.  Another story with a good plot that wasn't well executed), but a great colorful villian (which I think has been lacking in the films of late).  Also, a very Flemingesque title.

In regards to No Deals, Mr. Bond, Qwerty, I would suggest you go back and finish it.  While it starts out meandering, it is one of my favorite Gardner's after it gets going. 

My favorite "Gardner" was Nobody Lives Forever, though.  What a great set-up (I can't believe they haven't used it in a film).  A bounty on 007's head (decapitated).  But unlike TMWTGG, not just one assasin, but an "open call" to all baddies to bring him in first.  The finale was very entertaining.

I totally agree with you Diabolik. Despite it's lame title, No Deals, Mr. Bond is a good book. It does pick up pretty good the last half. Nobody Lives Forever is a great novel--my favorite of all the 007 books. As for Scorpius, I thought it was okay the first time I read it, but as I looked back on it over time, I found myself liking it more and more. (A similar situation occurred with me regarding Raymond Benson's Doubleshot.) And has been mentioned, the plot of Scorpius is still very timely. I generally like all the Gardner novels--especially his earliest ones and Death Is Forever. My least favorite though is easily The Man From Barbarossa.

[Qwerty]

[quote name='dinovelvet' date='29 January 2006 - 20:11'][quote name='Diabolik' date='29 January 2006 - 18:04']

In regards to No Deals, Mr. Bond, Qwerty, I would suggest you go back and finish it.

[DLibrasnow]

Personally speaking I find No Deals, Mr. Bond to be one of the better of Gardner's Bond books - I've always liked it.

[Flash1087]

Personally speaking I find No Deals, Mr. Bond to be one of the better of Gardner's Bond books - I've always liked it.

Same here, it enthralled me the first time I read it.

I've also always felt Role Of Honour to be very underrated, myself.

[K1Bond007]

Personally speaking I find No Deals, Mr. Bond to be one of the better of Gardner's Bond books - I've always liked it.

IMO it started off bad, but ended up getting better. Also, this book just confirms that Gardner is horrible at choosing cool names for "operations." Fleming game us Thunderball, Corona, Grand Slam.. etc. Gardner gives us Cream Cake.

[tdalton]

Scorpius was one of my favorite Gardner Bond novels. I've got it at #3 behind For Special Services and Icebreaker.

[JKD68]

I also rate Scorpius as one of Gardner's best. Role of Honor was a slight let down after really enjoying the first three in the series.

The climax & ending of No Deals, Mr. Bond was easiy the best part of the book for me so I'd say it's definitely worth a read.

[Skin 17]

Scorpius was a pretty good interesting read, I just wasn't a big fan of "Harriet Horner", but other than that the book wasn't that bad.

[Kronsteen]

Thumbs up : Licence Renewed, For Special Services, Nobody Lives Forever
Thumbs down : Icebreaker, The Man from Barbarossa, No Deals,Mr.Bond (at least the first 7/8 chapters of it! Does it get any better?)

I read No Deals, Mr. Bond a month ago, or so, and yes, it does get better. I was very disappointed with the first part of the book, which was dull and Gardners really didn't manage to keep the pace up. But then, suddenly, it just kept getting better and better. The climax was really entertaining and well-written.

Hopefully you'll give another try someday.

[dinovelvet]

I read No Deals, Mr. Bond a month ago, or so, and yes, it does get better. I was very disappointed with the first part of the book, which was dull and Gardners really didn't manage to keep the pace up. But then, suddenly, it just kept getting better and better. The climax was really entertaining and well-written.

Hopefully you'll give another try someday.

Yes I did go back to it and finished it. Didn't like it, though the climax was good. I made a separate thread about No Deals Mr.Bond on this forum with more reactions...

[pgram]

Read Scorpius about a month ago.

I like Gardner's writing. He is certainly a lot more skillful writer than Benson. And he has some good ideas. But in the end, he always lets me down. I think his problem is that he wants to develop his stories in a different way, and then just remembers he has to mould them in the Bond canon, and that is why he uses cliche's in the ends.

The idea of using a religious sect is not bad at all. As long as you don't mess too much with religion, that could be disorientating, occult and religious sects can potentially provide a good villain. Yet, I don't think Scorpius' criminal past was necessary. And the goal of the villains was not clear enough, and too naive. He should have spent more time and effort trying to think of something clever and genuine. In the end, it is just another terrorist organization that Scorpius has. The occultist element is almost not exploited at all. And it is a shame.

The other problems were its lack of exotic locations and lame finalle. Ok, for us, non English, the English countryside sounds exotic. After all, Fleming located MR only on England. But, still, he could use other places as well. Occult gives you opportunities for real exotic locations. And of course, the finalle is really bad. I mean the setting, and the resolution. It is another, OK, let's finish the book finalle. The snake pond was really Flemingesque and I loved it. But the wedding was really unnessecary and the ritual was not elevated enough. No, I had hoped the end would be more imaginative.

The suspense about who is the traitor worked. Unusually for Gardner, the twist in the end was not too complex, although the back story was more of a soap opera than a Bond story. But, during the book, you could feel Bond uneasiness, and that is good.

The way the villains could infiltrate the security premises was a little annoying, but, unfortunately, it is quite common in Bond films or books.

All in all, an interesting book, which didn't use all of its potential

[Genrewriter]

The only part about Scorpius I really like is the killing of the main villain. apart from that it's pretty standard middle of the road fare for me.