184 replies to this topic

[ACE]

Yes, but do you disagree with any of my criticisms of TLD?

Not completely. There are grains of truth in most of them (Dalton had no sense of humour, plot hard to follow, etc.), but, still, THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS is surely very, very far from being a "POS". What I will say, though, is that it's a tad overrated in Bond fandom, and it's also an acquired taste (took me a few viewings to start enjoying it).

But it's still better than LICENCE TO KILL, GOLDENEYE, TOMORROW NEVER DIES, THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH and DIE ANOTHER DAY.

ACE (stumbles, hit with a blunt instrument, gasps): Better than DAD?

[Loomis]

ACE (stumbles, hit with a blunt instrument, gasps): Better than DAD?

As fond as I am of DAD, yes, I think TLD is better. Slightly better. Why? Two reasons:

1. Dalton, a better Bond than Brosnan (IMO).

2. TLD has a Barry score. DAD hasn't. The TLD score may not be Barry's best (although I don't by any means believe it's the hideous racket you consider it to be, ACE), but it's still a Barry score.

[Spoon]

Pros:

• Dalton very much looks like Bond in this one, IMO.
• He also does a fantastic acting job in some scenes, for instance interrogating Pushkin; talking to Kara right after Saunders' death; and when he's alone with Kara in Shah's HQ. The latter two were especially difficult because it's a one-man show; d'Abo was giving him nothing to work with, but these scenes are still superb.
• I love the car chase and its aftermath. The way he disposes of his opponent's car with the laser is funny. The gadget-filled car's capabilities play out one by one in a way that is just classic Bond. Then the "cello chase", which is a great idea to begin with, builds tremendously well, with more and more people jumping into the chase, and Bond having nothing to defend himself besides a freakin' musical instrument... so well thought-out and directed. Love "we've nothing to declare", too. That entire sequence is just incredibly terrific, IMO.
• Bond is often outgunned (for instance, in that scene, or against Whitaker,) but thinks his way out of the situation. I like that.
• The twist with Pushkin's shooting did fool me.

Cons:

• I think the idea of a Bond girl who does have a prodigious talent (music) -- but just one that was useless in the context of a Bond movie, making her a damsel in distress, but not a bimbo -- was a good idea. But, d'Abo doesn't do much of an acting job with it, and the character ends up pretty dull.
• "Monogamous Bond" is also dull.
• The Leiter scene is useless. It seems to be meant to show that Bond still loves the ladies (Moneypenny earlier makes a joke to the same effect,) but I don't find myself believing it for a second. Given Dalton's performance, it's "telling" rather than "showing."
• Bad, pretentious one-liners. "He met his Waterloo"? The thing about atmospheric interference, or whatever? No, just no.
• Bond spends way too much time barking orders at people. For one, he's JAMES BOND; he should be doing things himself. For another, it just makes him come off very bossy and dislikeable. Barring the clunky one-liners, Dalton does have a few moments of genuine charm and likeability in the film (another funny moment: "Did you just call me a horse's ?"), but they're too few.
• On a related note, I don't like how Dalton portrays Bond as someone who would be happier NOT to be Agent 007. I don't think that is the character. Obviously, Licence To Kill goes even further with that.

I rank The Living Daylights relatively highly among the series. Unfortunately, Licence To Kill further emphasized many of its weaknesses, without maintaining its strengths.

Edited by Spoon, 03 September 2005 - 12:02 AM.

[ACE]

The battle on the airbase: no sense of geography or scale.
The destruction of Mainstrike Mine has more breath and tone.
A sequence of little vignettes with silly humour (the shower being ripped apart).

Compare with GF, TB, YOLT, OHMSS, DAF, SWLM, MR, Albanian attack in FYEO, AVTAK mainstrike mine slaughter and the best battle of all, the assault on Octopussy's Palace with "those girls"

[License To Kill]

That Dalton guy sucked big time.
Where were the jokes?
The hot ladies?
The super gadgets?
The big bases?
I couldn't follow what the hell was going on.

That blonde piece wasn't the only one shooting blanks.
Think the Bondmakers were too!

Meet me behind the carwash at 3:30, we're going to throw down..

[ACE]

That Dalton guy sucked big time.
Where were the jokes?
The hot ladies?
The super gadgets?
The big bases?
I couldn't follow what the hell was going on.

That blonde piece wasn't the only one shooting blanks.
Think the Bondmakers were too!

Meet me behind the carwash at 3:30, we're going to throw down..

What's "throw down"?
Is it like "throw up" which is what I do when supposed Bond fans keep inflating this movie, TLD with someone who thinks he's Bond, Meester Timozzy Dolt.Ton?

I don't believe anybody likes this movie. If you do, you can't be a Bond fan, you are merely following what other people tell you to say.

[DLibrasnow]

I can't decide if ACE is serious or not!

[ACE]

I can't decide if ACE is serious or not!

Serious as a heart attack - why do you doubt me?
Sure, I'm being humourous but I am trying to make a point
TLD - nul points

All you stiff-arsed Brits like this movie, huh?

LTK is slightly better cause the guy is rocking. Nart just a stuffed shirt.
And he looked better and was better dressed too. Cool duds and hair.

Bond is a cool dude, who the birds, kills the bad guys and saves the world.

Not some poncy wannabe, act.TOR!

Annime the ker-racy one?!

Edited by ACE, 02 September 2005 - 06:21 PM.

[Glor (009)]

I've noted this before but I think that I like TLD better than LTK because it wasn't originally written for Dalton and I don't like his portrayal very much. He's too grim and doesn't come off as brooding as much as whiny. He looks small to me for some reason. I despise how he butchers "Bond, James Bond" quipping it quickly rather than savoring the chance to say some of the most memorable words in movie history.

I find something similar with Brosnan in that I like Goldeneye in many ways more than the following titles because as they adapt I'm not so sure I like the changes that take place but that's another thread.

Other than that first segment I actually like the LTD and much of the action. I do like the car sequence and cello chase and how at the end you can see the bullet hole. I wish there were a few more women involved and these days LTD looks very dated in that Bond helps the Taliban.

[Mister Asterix]

...Cool duds and hair...

Okay, I can buy all of the other things, but seriously you think Dalton had better hair in Licence To Kill? I have never heard anyone have that opinion before.

[TGO]

I do believe TLD to be overrated as well. There are several things that irritate me about it...for one the repetitive score. The Necros Attacks theme was on the original album at least three times, along with the synthy Bond theme.

The lameness of the villians. Necros was a boring Grant knockoff. Whitaker had little screen time and litte menace.

And Dalton...oh dont get me started on him!

I just find the whole movie instantly forgetable.

[cvheady007]

I'm just shocked and wondering where this is all coming from...did Moomoo break into ACE's ID and start posting???!?!?!?!?!?!?

Honestly, it is a different version of the Bond that Connery and Moore set in place, and I prefer Licence to Kill, but this movie is not BAD and I definitely don't hate it.

[Qwerty]

Call that music?

I call it excellent music.

[JackLordIsFelix]

Pretty underwhelming plot too, and a completely unthreatening loser for a villain (not as bad as Reneard in TWINE, however). Has some nice bits, but it's more important to have a good movie overall than just a few "nice bits." LTK was a HUGE improvement.

[DLibrasnow]

well I like the movie....and thats coming from a Roger Moore supporter.

It has some great fights IMO....the kitchen fight at the safe house...the fight in the jail and the fight on the plane.

[Qwerty]

Pretty underwhelming plot too, and a completely unthreatening loser for a villain (not as bad as Reneard in TWINE, however). Has some nice bits, but it's more important to have a good movie overall than just a few "nice bits." LTK was a HUGE improvement.

True point, the villains could have been much better.

[trevanian]

And anyway, since when did Barnd listen to classical music. Fleming's Bond would have hated going to concerts even if he was banging the bird.

Fleming's Bond was enthusiastic not dull and closed off. Did Dalton ever read any Fleming?

Are you just trolling this subject? I came across a post from you in GENERAL just now, with all the same material from your first posts in this thread.

Anyway, Bond is listening to JAZZ in his car in TLD, which is the only time I can recall the movies getting it right.

Have you read all of the Bond books? I get the impression Dalton is playing Bond from the later books, whereas Brosnan is playing him from around L&LD or so. There is a serious and compelling dourness to Fleming's Bond in the last couple, and I think Dalton realizes that on screen superbly.

[Tarl_Cabot]

'The Living Daylights' is sandwhiched between perhaps the two least popular Bond films of the 80s and I think it's better than both. As Loomis says there are "grains of truth" to your criticisms of the film but then again, we are Bond fans are we are more forgiving of the flaws in this series than "civilians", no?

There isn't a spot on perfect Bond film since maybe Goldfinger and FRWL(OHMSS is close but has Lazenby who is good but not quite Connery good) before that so I'll aknoweledge that but just enjoy what's there.Dalton is a breath of fresh air after the decrepid Moore;he isn't trying to be Moore or Connery but rather THE NEW JAMES BOND and he succeeds. He doesn't write his lines,fyi.As for his monogamy,it's implied he beds 2 women, which the same as Brosnan's count in the last film.And Bond is charming and witty...but he's not a comedian.

I love the film for being unconventional.As a franchise film I rank it higher than most sequels of the late 80s. The John Barry Score gives it a class that the subsequent offerings cannot match, hence it's standing in Bond fandom.Anyway, to each his own...

[hrabb04]

Well, here goes...it's amazing Bondpurist hasn't come on here to challenge Ace to a duel.

I like Dalton better tham Moore because he, at least, was an actor who tried to act. Unfortunately, Dalton just never seemed comfortable playing Bond. He always seemed angry all the time. There was no joy in anything he did. He acted like he did not want to be there, and as a consequence, I believe that alienated a lot of moviegoers who were put off by his attitude.
Dalton never convinced me he was anything special as Bond. Physically, he was just not there. His fights in The Living Daylights were mediocre. The fight with Grant is pathetic. You really believe Bond only gets out of it by pure luck and the stupidity of the bimbo flying the plane.
The villains ARE horrible. Having Joe Don Baker on'y share the screen with Dalton for maybe five minutes is insane. Bond and the villain have no relationship or link through the movie. Whitaker is just there in the background, just so Bond has someone to kill in the end. Necros is a Grant clone, but then so was Stamper. Remember, this is EON, who wouldn't know creativity if crawled up their butts and died.
It's all fine if you want to stick Bond with one girl in a movie, but you damned well better make sure it's a strong enough actress who can carry that part of the story. That does not happen here in this one. Maryam D'Abo did not have much of a career after this one, and it's not hard to see why. She is just a lousy actress and has little chemistry with Dalton.
I kinda like Barry's score, but it's not my favorite Bond score, or even Barry score, by any stretch. Too synthesized.

Still, you gotta give EON some backhanded credit for trying to make Bond serious again. Gone are the redheaded stunt doubles, making the action seem more real again. While James Bond will not likely be anywhere near the glory days of Sean Connery again, Dalton's films, while weak, did pave the way for Goldeneye to come along and clean house. Unfortunately, things never did pick up after that.

[Jim]

I don't believe anybody likes this movie. If you do, you can't be a Bond fan, you are merely following what other people tell you to say.

To agree with you would be to follow what someone else was saying.

Whether or not you believe that people like this film doesn't stop it from being true.

Entertaining thread, though. Thanks.

[ACE]

Bond helps the Taliban.

Who'da thunk it?

TLD has a LOT more support than Goldfinger!

Edited by ACE, 03 September 2005 - 06:16 AM.

[K1Bond007]

Whitaker is a horrible villain, but The Living Daylights is damn good film regardless. Definitely part of the better half of the series (in my top 5 anyway).

[Licensed Troubleshooter]

That Dalton guy sucked big time.
Where were the jokes?
The hot ladies?
The super gadgets?
The big bases?
I couldn't follow what the hell was going on.

That blonde piece wasn't the only one shooting blanks.
Think the Bondmakers were too!

Heresy!

[DLibrasnow]

[quote name='hrabb04' date='2 September 2005 - 20:45']Dalton's films, while weak, did pave the way for Goldeneye to come along and clean house.

[bryonalston]

I don't believe anybody likes this movie. If you do, you can't be a Bond fan, you are merely following what other people tell you to say.

I seriously hope that you were joking. Despite it's flaws, TLD is a good enough film to hold up despite them. It has intrigue, a well thought-out plot, and most of all, it is one of the few genuine SPY THRILLERS of the series. If you are attracted to the campy, austere and dim-witted "Bond" films like TMWTGG, then I can understand why you don't like TLD...IT'S BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE GENUINE SPY FILMS like TLD or LTK.

Now ACE, I understand how you must feel to a certain degree, since I am one of the few fans (that's right, I am a geniune fan) that dislikes GF, and I created a thread similar to this one a few months ago. The only difference was that I wanted to actually learn to understand why GF is praised so highly, and to also open people's eyes to the fact that GF is not perfect (which may have come off as tearing the film apart.) I don't understand why you loathe TLD so much. It pretty much accomplishes what it set out to do. It wasn't trying to be the biggest and best Bond film in history, so you have to respect it for that.

[ACE]

IT'S BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE GENUINE SPY FILMS like TLD or LTK.

Now ACE, I understand how you must feel to a certain degree, since I am one of the few fans (that's right, I am a geniune fan) that dislikes GF, and I created a thread similar to this one a few months ago. The only difference was that I wanted to actually learn to understand why GF is praised so highly, and to also open people's eyes to the fact that GF is not perfect (which may have come off as tearing the film apart.)

Oh, really?
Isn't this the same thing?

[bryonalston]

No. I was hoping to gain a greater understanding about the film which I hated. I didn't start the thread JUST to tear GF apart, because there are a lot of fans that like the movie, and I just don't happen to be one of them. I would never have gone as far as to say that people who like GF aren't Bond fans (you can't say that about any of the Bond films, because all Bond fans have different tastes.) I don't like any particular type of Bond film (it ranges from FRWL to AVTAK or TB to FYEO. I love both Dalton and Moore. Does having such a broad spectrum of interests make me any less of a fan? No, and me LOVING TLD doesn't either, It's one of the very few Bond films I can watch consecutively without getting tired of.

[ACE]

So was I. By taking exactly the same confrontational approach as you ("Does anyone else hate...?" is hardly seeking to understand), but in a blunter, hopefully more humourous way, I wanted to see what people would say about this much criticized film.

But you know what?

This is Bond fan site and I am really, really tired of all the "I hate..." threads. In fact, I HATE "I hate threads" which I notice are cropping up now.
Hate has to be too strong a word for us fans. For me, even my least favourite Bond film has so much in it to enjoy. Hate leads to anger, anger leads to fear, fear leads to the dark side.

I'm a Bond Hippie. I'm like Donald Sutherland in Kelly's Heroes.
All you need is Bond love man.

To paraphrase Peachy Taliefero Carnehan from one of my favourite films (and stories), The Man Who Would Be King:

"I was being satiric!" (sic)

Anyway, I think the Bond Police (see thread below, page 2 post #53) are coming to get me for some reconditioning and piranha pool therapy....

http://debrief.comma...pic=24840&st=53

"I think I'll go down to Madame X and let her read my mind!"

After I've been reconditioned, I think I will forced to post on TLD again.



ACE

Edited by ACE, 03 September 2005 - 10:24 AM.

[Mr. Somerset]

Daylights is one of my faves, though the plot is a bit hard to follow. Koskov is about as intimidating as the late, great Mr. Rogers, structurally it doesn't quite follow the formula (titles, then office scene, etc), and I never liked the naked men in the desert.
Still, a better debut for Tim than GoldenEye was for Pierce IMHO.
Loved the European locales, Barry did an excellent job with the score, Bond's relationship with Kara was convincngly played by Tim and Maryam. Dalton bought back the danger in Bond, making the character more human. If Bond were an actual person in the real world...at least that's the interpretation I felt Tim was going for.
Also, the film has an excellent pre-title sequence, and is paced quite fast. Compare it to GoldenEye, which unfolds more slowly.
Oh, and Daylights has the last decent gunbarrel sequence!

[Antiriad]

Im with you Ace.

The Living Daylights.

Poor Bond. Dalton sucks more than Lazenby. No charm, no wit, no confidence, no hero. Just a grumpy northern idiot who is less endearing than the villains he kills.

Poor villians. Whitaker is just plain dull and stupid. Koskov is a complete wet kipper who could do as much harm as a paper bag. Necros too is yet *another* poor Red Grant clone with EuroTrash toppings.

Poor crumpet. Maryam d'Abo looks dippy and helpless throughout - not an improvement on the airhead Charlies Angel in AVTAK. And Moneypenny, Caroline *yawn* Bliss whom is devoid of personality and you wouldnt look twice at.

Poor M. Curmedgeony Robert Brown - not a patch on Bernard Lee.

Poor plot - a international drug deal? WTF? Do we care? Whats at stake here?

Poor gags - the ghetto blaster and Barry Manilow jokes make me cringe even more now than they did then.

Poor budget - how many guards does Whitaker have? One? And his base looks like a time share villa! Not to mention using that house up the road from Pinewood. Cheeeap...

I also see nothing heroic in the filthy Mujahadeen either..."Holy" warriors my .

In short - . Only good thing about it is the John Barry soundtrack.

The film might have been bareable (in a TWINE or TND way) if they'd clung to Pierce and bought out his Remington Steele contract.

Edited by Antiriad, 03 September 2005 - 10:17 AM.