24 replies to this topic

[TortillaFactory]

I've just made it to the part where Vivienne remembers breaking up with Derek, and I'm curious to see what people's reactions are the story up 'til this point. Very interesting how Fleming is setting her up for a romance with Bond - I noted this last time I read it. What kind of fellow is Derek, exactly, based on this backstory? Good or bad? Was it his plan to leave her all along, once he took her virginity?

Most fascinating to me is how Vivienne's parents both died, and she was cared for by her aunt. Hmm. Doesn't sound familiar at ALL, does it?

All in all, I still think Fleming does a bang-up job of writing as a woman.

Thoughts?

[spynovelfan]

Been a while since I read it, but I found the section about Derek where I stopped believing I was reading a narrative written by a woman, and started seeing Fleming coming through. I found Vivienne's idea of what a man should be very unrealistic and fantastic, and the whole thing with Derek kind of creepy.
But gripes aside, I think there's some very good suspense built up in parts of this book.

[Qwerty]

I believe he was to leave her all along. I love the way Fleming wrote The Spy Who Loved Me and it has without a doubt come to become one of my favorites of all his fourteen novels and short story collections.

[K1Bond007]

I don't think he had any intention of staying with her. Her second love affair is even more messed up IMO, particulary because it was written in the early 60s. Given that, I'm not really surprised it was banned in a number of countries for quite a while.

[Atticus17F]

My theory is that Derek Mallaby is actually Ian Fleming.

- Etonian
- Old Money
- Petrified of his parents
- Familiar with London nightspots
- His seduction moves are very unrefined and cack-handed
- Selfish, spoiled, arrogant, etc.

So, yes, I think Derek was a very bad lad with no intention of hanging around once he'd done the deed.

[TortillaFactory]

Been a while since I read it, but I found the section about Derek where I stopped believing I was reading a narrative written by a woman, and started seeing Fleming coming through. I found Vivienne's idea of what a man should be very unrealistic and fantastic, and the whole thing with Derek kind of creepy.

Interesting you should feel this way. I'm curious - are you male or female? You don't have to tell me, obviously, but I'm just wondering how the genders' opinions differ on this issue. As a woman myself, I've yet to feel like Fleming's gone completely off the mark. Obviously Fleming's writing from the POV of one woman, and it's not meant to stand in for the POV of every woman. I don't find anything incongruous or odd about her thoughts/behavior, and there are actually a few bits that astonished me with their accuracy, such as the "I felt motherly towards him" line after the petting session in the theater. I think it takes a lot of courage to say something like that, as an author, and furthermore I think it's a rather clever description of a confusing emotion.

My theory is that Derek Mallaby is actually Ian Fleming.

Interesting theory, but I'm not sure I quite buy it. I thought Ian was rather successful with the ladies...where do you get the idea he was clumsy? I suppose in the end it works just as well, but how much of a triumph is it if your conquest just ends up thinking "WHY did I let him do that?"

One thing I do wonder about Derek, though - in all likelihood she would have let the affair continue, so why did he break it off? It's not as if she made any emotional demands of him (that we know of), and THAT'S usually when the "bad lads" run for the hills. It doesn't make sense that he'd just take her virginity and run. The quintessential "That Guy" will usually keep women strung along, whereas he went out of his way to let her know it was pretty much over.

Maybe it's not that he always intended to leave her - maybe he stopped having feelings for her long before Doing It, but didn't want to tell her until he got some. Which makes him a bit of a wanker, I suppose, but not really a horrid person.

Alternately, Vivienne was just clever enough to realize that it WAS over, even though his language was somewhat vague. In which case, good on her.

Edited by TortillaFactory, 08 August 2005 - 01:21 AM.

[K1Bond007]

My theory is that Derek Mallaby is actually Ian Fleming.

- Etonian
- Old Money
- Petrified of his parents
- Familiar with London nightspots
- His seduction moves are very unrefined and cack-handed
- Selfish, spoiled, arrogant, etc.

So, yes, I think Derek was a very bad lad with no intention of hanging around once he'd done the deed.

If Fleming was anyone in the Bond novels, it's Bond himself. He shares more similarities, specifically, women, espionage, both Commanders during WW2, similar lifestyles, smoking, drinking, Etonian, University of Geneva etc etc.

I would even go so far to say that Fleming's interpretation of what Bond looked like somewhat resembles Fleming when he was younger during WW2. If you've seen the pictures to compare.

[Atticus17F]

I thought Ian was rather successful with the ladies...where do you get the idea he was clumsy?

From Lycett's biography. Apparently, even as late as WWII, a typical Fleming seduction scenario was to offer his ladyfriend a plate of scrambled eggs followed by a spot of French pørnography. Now, I'm not for one moment suggesting that I know more about the art of seduction than the creator of James Bond but eggs 'n' pørn does strike me as a bit unsophisticated. Also, if that was his technique in adulthood, I wonder how the 18-year-old Fleming went about things. Probably much the same way as Derek Mallaby, would be my guess.

One thing I do wonder about Derek, though - in all likelihood she would have let the affair continue, so why did he break it off?  It's not as if she made any emotional demands of him (that we know of), and THAT'S usually when the "bad lads" run for the hills.  It doesn't make sense that he'd just take her virginity and run.  The quintessential "That Guy" will usually keep women strung along, whereas he went out of his way to let her know it was pretty much over.

I suppose he deserves a few points for telling her instead of just dropping her at the station ... but there was the class thing and Mallaby's parents probably had a string of debutantes or cousins lined up for him. He's not going to jeopardise his future (inheritance) because of a quick leg-over with some dozy tart on the banks of the Thames.

[Atticus17F]

If Fleming was anyone in the Bond novels, it's Bond himself. He shares more similarities, specifically, women, espionage, both Commanders during WW2, similar lifestyles, smoking, drinking, Etonian, University of Geneva etc etc.

Of course he shares some traits with Bond, they're well documented and I wouldn't disagree with the ones you've mentioned. But take out "espionage", "commanders during WW2" and "University of Geneva" from your list ... you've got Derek Mallaby.

I would even go so far to say that Fleming's interpretation of what Bond looked like somewhat resembles Fleming when he was younger during WW2. If you've seen the pictures to compare.

Really? Fleming says Bond has a "longish, straight nose". Fleming's nose was flattened in his teens. He says Bond's eyes are "wide and level". Fleming's were narrow and very close together (a feature he was aware of and used to say it meant he couldn't be trusted). Fleming didn't have a three-inch scar down his cheek. Fleming had brown hair, while Bond's hair is black ... apart from all that, they could be twins.

[TortillaFactory]

Now, I'm not for one moment suggesting that I know more about the art of seduction than the creator of James Bond but eggs 'n' pørn does strike me as a bit unsophisticated.

Ah, but it's French pørn!

When you put it like that, I suppose it DOES sound a bit squicky, but it apparently worked. This was undoubtedly dependant upon his personal magentism, which was probably quite formidable. Nothing about Derek is charming, really, except for the part where he paid for booze. I suppose Fleming might choose to represent his darker side in the person of Derek; however, I think it highly more likely that he just wanted to create the antithesis of Bond.

[Byron]

I suppose Fleming might choose to represent his darker side in the person of Derek;


That's an interesting theory. Derek could have also been based on an old school mate.

I also think Fleming was bringing up the issue of class divisions.

[K1Bond007]

Really? Fleming says Bond has a "longish, straight nose". Fleming's nose was flattened in his teens. He says Bond's eyes are "wide and level". Fleming's were narrow and very close together (a feature he was aware of and used to say it meant he couldn't be trusted). Fleming didn't have a three-inch scar down his cheek. Fleming had brown hair, while Bond's hair is black ... apart from all that, they could be twins.

http://k1bond007.sha...leming_Bond.jpg

? Not even a little? Besides - I hate to point out that my exact words were "somewhat resembles". I didn't say they were twins.

Edited by K1Bond007, 08 August 2005 - 03:42 AM.

[Atticus17F]

Now, I'm not for one moment suggesting that I know more about the art of seduction than the creator of James Bond but eggs 'n' pørn does strike me as a bit unsophisticated.

Ah, but it's French pørn!

Heh, good point. Anything less would be tacky.

Nothing about Derek is charming, really, except for the part where he paid for booze.  I suppose Fleming might choose to represent his darker side in the person of Derek; however, I think it highly more likely that he just wanted to create the antithesis of Bond.

Well - *controversial opinion alert* - Fleming was the antithesis of Bond, in more ways than one. To draw a parallel with Derek, though: there's a tale about Fleming, during his days at Sandhurst, he invited his then-girlfriend to some Regimental Ball. She couldn't go, so Fleming threw a strop and threatened to go to London and get himself a tart. That he did and ended up with a dose. No idea how Fleming's girlfriend felt about this, but his mother was livid and there was a big to-do while she "hushed-up" the "scandal".

James Bond? Or Derek Mallaby?

[1q2w3e4r]

My theory is that Derek Mallaby is actually Ian Fleming.

- Etonian
- Old Money
- Petrified of his parents
- Familiar with London nightspots
- His seduction moves are very unrefined and cack-handed
- Selfish, spoiled, arrogant, etc.

So, yes, I think Derek was a very bad lad with no intention of hanging around once he'd done the deed.

I've always believed this. Mainly because of the reasons you've listed above. And secondly because it's something Fleming himself would have done. Particular having a go in a movie theatre.

He did lay one of his friends wives on a train ride from memory and when he sent her home gave a note to his friend saying how much of a good girl she'd been.

Derek is exactly how Fleming acted towards women, in fact. Derek is probably a bit of a saint compared to old Ian. I'll have to read SPY and post my thoughts.

But Derek is Ian, with this it'll take some VERY big convincing to sway my view.

[1q2w3e4r]

Well - *controversial opinion alert* - Fleming was the antithesis of Bond, in more ways than one. To draw a parallel with Derek, though: there's a tale about Fleming, during his days at Sandhurst, he invited his then-girlfriend to some Regimental Ball. She couldn't go, so Fleming threw a strop and threatened to go to London and get himself a tart. That he did and ended up with a dose. No idea how Fleming's girlfriend felt about this, but his mother was livid and there was a big to-do while she "hushed-up" the "scandal".

James Bond? Or Derek Mallaby?

Don't forget the feathers in the back of Eve's Jaguar!

[Atticus17F]

http://k1bond007.sha...leming_Bond.jpg

? Not even a little? Besides - I hate to point out that my exact words were "somewhat resembles". I didn't say they were twins.

Quite right, I suppose there is something of a little, tiny resemblance ... from a distance ... if you squint a bit ... although the line drawing looks the spit of Hoagy Carmichael to me.

[Atticus17F]

Don't forget the feathers in the back of Eve's Jaguar!

Birdwatching, would've been my explanation.

[spynovelfan]

TF, I'm a guy. I suppose the reason I find it falls through is more to do with Derek than Vivienne. I can't really explain it. It's something to do with the knowledge Vivienne has about Derek - it's knowledge Fleming would have, not her, somehow. It's the stuff an older Derek would write. And I think there's also some bit about her wanting to be raped or something that seemed fairly unlikely. The whole thing just seemed unpleasant, somehow, and I suddenly saw Michel as a vision of a woman by Fleming and stepped out of the book.

On the point about Fleming being Bond, here's an excerpt from an interview in Playboy in 1964:

'PLAYBOY: Do you sometimes feel that you are Bond, and Bond is Fleming?

FLEMING: No, Bond is a highly romanticised version of anybody, but certainly not I, and I certainly couldn't keep up with him; I couldn't have even at his age, which is, and has always been, in the middle thirties. He's a sort of amalgam of romantic tough guys, dressed up in 20th Century clothes, using 20th Century language. I think he's slightly more true to the type of modern hero, to the commandos of the last War, and so on, and to some of the secret-service men I've met, than to any of the rather cardboardy heroes of the ancient thrillers.'

Of course, Fleming might not be the best judge of whether or not he resembles his hero. But I think it's clear Bond is a fantasy figure. And Fleming was never a commando of any sort: he was a desk man, not a field agent, and in the same interview he admits knowing very little about guns and not being interested in them, as long as the details are right. I think Bond has a lot of Fleming's tastes, but I think the writer was probably a very different character.

[Loomis]

Surely Derek is supposed to be an inferior version of the young Bond, making the adult 007 look good by comparison? (For the benefit, presumably, of readers unfamiliar with the other novels - "Hmmm.... this Bond's a bit of a bounder, but, still, he seems a better man than that Derek fellow.")

[Atticus17F]

Surely Derek is supposed to be an inferior version of the young Bond, making the adult 007 look good by comparison? (For the benefit, presumably, of readers unfamiliar with the other novels - "Hmmm.... this Bond's a bit of a bounder, but, still, he seems a better man than that Derek fellow.")

But, for Vivienne (and Fleming) at any rate, Bond is the ultimate male, regardless. What do you mean by "inferior version of the young Bond"? That Derek is Bond minus, say the toughness and courage? That still says Fleming to me.

In fact, I've just thought of someone else Derek reminds me of; Leslie Phillips. Sort of happy-go-lucky, cheeky-chappie, 13th-Duke-of-Wymbourne-type. Could also be Roger Moore's Bond as a youth.

[TortillaFactory]

You know, I'd be willing to go along with the Derek-as-Fleming theory if I could believe a man like Fleming would thusly eviscerate himself in fiction. But even I, who am (locally) famous for my self-deprication, would never do that. Though it would be interesting if he had - I think it shows a great deal of self-awareness and remorse, surprising in an uncompromising man like Fleming.

I've always believed this. Mainly because of the reasons you've listed above. And secondly because it's something Fleming himself would have done. Particular having a go in a movie theatre.

But so would Bond - the only difference being, the girl would be totally into it. And it would be classier, somehow, because it's Bond.

TF, I'm a guy. I suppose the reason I find it falls through is more to do with Derek than Vivienne. I can't really explain it. It's something to do with the knowledge Vivienne has about Derek - it's knowledge Fleming would have, not her, somehow. It's the stuff an older Derek would write. And I think there's also some bit about her wanting to be raped or something that seemed fairly unlikely. The whole thing just seemed unpleasant, somehow, and I suddenly saw Michel as a vision of a woman by Fleming and stepped out of the book.

This is really interesting insight, I'll deal with it one chunk at a time:

Firstly, I'm not quire sure what you mean what she "knows" about Derek, so I'll just assume you meant something like this: if she's so clever, why'd she get tangled up in the first place? It seems particularly strange that if she really, truly felt he'd lose all respect for her once they Did It, she should go ahead and let it happen. However, I'll attest to this: knowledge and/or understanding about how the human male brain works doesn't motivate women to act any differently. Most of time. Why? Because deep down inside, we persist in believing that they're really "like us"...there's a strong feeling of attachment that women have towards a sexual partner, and I think we all want to believe that men experience the same thing. (They don't - not even remotely. They just don't happen to release the same hormones. And while a man's feelings might grow stronger after the deed is done, if there's nothing there to begin with, it's highly unlikely that something will start.)

Maybe it's just that I'm someone who understands stuff and still gets into trouble, but I think Vivienne is pretty realistic.

Secondly, the rape bit. I can agree with you here: it's very unlikely that a woman would write that - particularly in this day and age. Even if I firmly believed it was true that "all women" loved "semi-rape" (whatever that is), I wouldn't dare couch it in those terms, because there's nothing women like to do so much as excommunicate one of their own for treason. However, it's true that many women, perhaps a majority, are somewhat intruiged with the idea of being overcome and "taken" as I believe Vivienne put it. While a true "rape fantasy" is probably not the healthiest thing, there's an element of losing control that's very, very erotic to lots and lots of women. This is true for a few reasons, one of them being that women sometimes need to be somewhat disconnected from their sexuality in order to really feel sexual, oftentimes because someone taught them that sex was "dirty" or shameful. (Perhaps, for this very reason, loss-of-control fantasies were more common back when TSWLM was written.) Another big part of it is the evolutionary thing: the desire to possess a man who's strong enough to protect them - and if he can't even overcome YOU, what's he gonna do when the other tribe attacks?

So, while Vivienne's essentially on the right track, I can see how you wouldn't believe a woman would say that. Most women would probably talk - somewhat shamefully, even - about their own desires, rather than tacking it on to "all" women.

Surely Derek is supposed to be an inferior version of the young Bond, making the adult 007 look good by comparison? (For the benefit, presumably, of readers unfamiliar with the other novels - "Hmmm.... this Bond's a bit of a bounder, but, still, he seems a better man than that Derek fellow.")

Not sure I go along with the "younger version of Bond" idea, but I do think Derek was meant to be a sort of...well, a picture of the guy you might THINK, at first glance, would be a better match for Viv than Bond. By showing him for the cad he is, Fleming eliminates that type of man from the equation entirely.

You know, I can just buy the idea that Bond is supposed to be a romanticised version of the reader...but of the writer? I've been trying to write Bond for some time now, and let me tell you, it's painful. The guy's been through a LOT. Fleming was acutely aware of this, which is why even a two-bit psychology buff like myself can find things to enjoy in the novels. Bond's past is forever cropping up, and it's not fun, and furthermore it's almost impossible to write the guy effectively without feeling all the wounds that never healed. Seems to me if Fleming was really intent upon creating a fantasy version of himself, he'd at least come up with someone who wasn't always aching a little, inside and out. It's easy to forget the painful parts when you're reading, but impossible when you're writing.

I think Bond has a lot of Fleming's tastes, but I think the writer was probably a very different character.

You're spot-on with this one, I think. In fact, I've found in my writing that the more a character resembles me in details, the less s/he ends up being like me, in the end.

Edited by TortillaFactory, 08 August 2005 - 05:59 PM.

[Four Aces]

My theory is that Derek Mallaby is actually Ian Fleming.

- Etonian
- Old Money
- Petrified of his parents
- Familiar with London nightspots
- His seduction moves are very unrefined and cack-handed
- Selfish, spoiled, arrogant, etc.

So, yes, I think Derek was a very bad lad with no intention of hanging around once he'd done the deed.

If Fleming was anyone in the Bond novels, it's Bond himself. He shares more similarities, specifically, women, espionage, both Commanders during WW2, similar lifestyles, smoking, drinking, Etonian, University of Geneva etc etc.

I would even go so far to say that Fleming's interpretation of what Bond looked like somewhat resembles Fleming when he was younger during WW2. If you've seen the pictures to compare.

Nonsense. If anything, Fleming only wishes he could have been like Bond. Contrary to popular belief, intelligence work is quite boring. Fleming does tend to spice up.

[Four Aces]

I've just made it to the part where Vivienne remembers breaking up with Derek, and I'm curious to see what people's reactions are the story up 'til this point.  Very interesting how Fleming is setting her up for a romance with Bond - I noted this last time I read it.  What kind of fellow is Derek, exactly, based on this backstory?  Good or bad?  Was it his plan to leave her all along, once he took her virginity?

Most fascinating to me is how Vivienne's parents both died, and she was cared for by her aunt.  Hmm.  Doesn't sound familiar at ALL, does it?

All in all, I still think Fleming does a bang-up job of writing as a woman.

Thoughts?

I think Fleming's purpose here was to show how women get themselves into abusive relationships with a naive fairy-tale concept of 'love', and how this often taints one's judgment. By the time Vivienne gets to Bond, she is over this 'innocence', but not jaded by the concept of romance. She has matured, and now understands the way life goes.

[Major Bloodnok]

My theory is that Derek Mallaby is actually Ian Fleming.

Interesting theory, but I'm not sure I quite buy it. I thought Ian was rather successful with the ladies...where do you get the idea he was clumsy? I suppose in the end it works just as well, but how much of a triumph is it if your conquest just ends up thinking "WHY did I let him do that?"

One thing I do wonder about Derek, though - in all likelihood she would have let the affair continue, so why did he break it off? It's not as if she made any emotional demands of him (that we know of), and THAT'S usually when the "bad lads" run for the hills. It doesn't make sense that he'd just take her virginity and run. The quintessential "That Guy" will usually keep women strung along, whereas he went out of his way to let her know it was pretty much over.

As a guy- not THAT guy- I think that Derek got what he wanted and was gone daddy, gone. I'd say he was a pretty nasty bit of work all right, and those guys are often too common. Several of my lady friends have experienced him.

What I always found hinky was that Viv doesn't have any consistency- I mean she doesn't resent Bond leaving her. Sure, he saved her life and he's a real man and all, but come on. He could just be a sadistic deviant. How would she know.

This is probably my least favorite of the Bond books, and I never bought Fleming's female POV. I thought, even as a male, that his comment about all women wanting to be raped was messed up. I think it's a MALE fantasy story passed off as a woman's fantasy.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

This is probably my least favorite of the Bond books, and I never bought Fleming's female POV. I thought, even as a male, that his comment about all women wanting to be raped was messed up.  I think it's a MALE fantasy story passed off as a woman's fantasy.

Well, whether it was realistic or not, I still think it was well-written and a good book in general.

The rape thing is kinda screwed up by today's standards but as a man who loves hyperbole, I think it's all in how you look at it.

Like Tortilla said, it's more the erotic aspect of losing control entirely and just being taken than actually being pinned to the ground in a dark alley. And when you think about it...there's nothing wrong with that.

So mostly its how you interpret it...plus I mean, what makes for better reading...'all women want to lose control every now and again' or 'all women love semi-rape'. The latter is so much more...interesting... haha.