1182 replies to this topic

[Gobi-1]

Watched the first series of Sherlock on Netfilx a few months ago and loved it. Just watched all of Series 2 last night in one go and I can say Sherlock is now my favorite show. Just absolutely brilliant. I cannot wait for Series 3.

Spoiler

I'm still racking my brain trying to figure out how Sherlock faked his death.

I need to get the soundtracks as well. Brilliant stuff.

[Dustin]

I believe Doyle told his mother that he had every intention of killing Holmes off for good with "The Final Problem" so that he could concentrate on other, more-meaningful works, and possibly also because he intended for Moriarty to die in the process; as Moriarty was the world's foremost criminal and had the msot-dangerous crinimal mind in Europe, Doyle probably felt that there was nowhere to go from there, and no villain that he created could rival Moriarty.

He was later persuaded to revive the character given the reception to the events of "The Final Problem".

Yes, I think we all heard versions of that, and of Fleming's apathy toward Bond around FRWL time and later on.

But it's the lack of conclusiveness in either demise that brings out the cynical side of my nature.

It's appropriate that you mention From Russia With Love with The Final Problem, as Fleming was in some ways inspired by Conan Doyle in the way he killed Bond! (He said in letters that he intended to give Bond a more permanent death than Conan Doyle, not simply having there be a missing body) And Bond's death at least seems like it was intended to be a proper death (reading the end of From Russia With Love it does seem like there is no way out) So it is somewhat ironic that Fleming changed his mind faster than Conan Doyle! (Doyle took several years to write a new Holmes story, Bond returned the next year.)

I think with Fleming he did intend the death to be lasting, when he wrote it (the numerous complaints he had about struggling to write more Bond stories support this, particularly at the time of From Russia With Love when he felt he was out of ideas) he changed his mind, more likely than not, because a pilot for a tv series he was asked to write fell through and he found himself with a story perfectly suited to Bond (the basic story to Dr No)...I think author's like to use these backdoor deaths as a form of insuarance, they intend the death to be permanent when they write it but they like to know it is possible to change their minds if they ever want

I suppose the only way to get an idea of what kind of thoughts went through Doyle's and Fleming's minds is to look at it from the writers perspective. And from there it's not really as clear as we'd probably like to think.

Writing a series' character is a bit of a schizoid task. It's writing a story until its end, and then it's writing another story until its end with the same protagonist. And again and again. The series' nature doesn't allow for the natural end of a story, i.e. the character's death(s). Yet it also doesn't allow to simply leave the creations to their own fate after the last line was written. What this perhaps comes closest to is an odd kind of addiction that provides a (diminishing) kick and at the same time a feeling of helpless dependence and subjection. The author can't go on in the same manner, yet can't stop to go on. This melange of feelings may explain up to a point why Doyle and Fleming did what they did and why they chose the particular manner they did it in.

[David Schofield]

I suppose the only way to get an idea of what kind of thoughts went through Doyle's and Fleming's minds is to look at it from the writers perspective. And from there it's not really as clear as we'd probably like to think.

Writing a series' character is a bit of a schizoid task. It's writing a story until its end, and then it's writing another story until its end with the same protagonist. And again and again. The series' nature doesn't allow for the natural end of a story, i.e. the character's death(s). Yet it also doesn't allow to simply leave the creations to their own fate after the last line was written. What this perhaps comes closest to is an odd kind of addiction that provides a (diminishing) kick and at the same time a feeling of helpless dependence and subjection. The author can't go on in the same manner, yet can't stop to go on. This melange of feelings may explain up to a point why Doyle and Fleming did what they did and why they chose the particular manner they did it in.

That, and having a revenue stream up their sleeve by bringing the character back, hence not killing off the character too "fatally".

I'd put a big winking smilie in at this point but the damn things don't seem to work...!

[Dustin]

'tis understood anyway.

By the by, a rather brilliant and harrowing account of this very problem can be found in Stephen King's masterwork MISERY. Warmly recommended, especially (but not exclusively) for the series-character-killoff aspect. You'd be surprised how insightful this tale tackles the theme.

Edited by Dustin, 02 March 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Aris007]

The dummy falling from the roof might account for Holmes' awkward flailing while he fell, but it doesn't explain the blood on the pavement. Unless he filled the dummy with fake (or possibly real) blood that would spray everywhere when it hit the ground. And it wouldn't explain why Watson identified it as Holmes. He was hit by the cyclist, which might have concussed him a little and made it difficult for him to recognise Holmes, but there is no way Holmes could have orchestrated it - and any one of the other pedestrains could have easily spotted that it was a dummy. I think the dummy was just another Holmesian experiment, trying to prove an unrelated theory.

My alternative theory is that Holmes actually did hit the ground, but he staggered the jump. St Bart's is only three or four stories high, so I guess it is possible that he could have jumped down to a ledge or a parapet, breaking his fall enough that when he made the second jump, it would not have been fatal. I don't think he was declared dead at the scene - the overhead shot didn't have a sheet over his body on the gurney - and the final shot was only a bust shot, so it is plausible that the injuries he would have received in such a fall would be out of frame in the final shot.

Quite interesting theories.

However, I think that everything was staged in a different way.

Holmes at the end of the episode goes to Molly asking for her help. Now we know Molly is working at the morgue. That means she has access to numerous bodies. For me she, along with Sherlock took a body and simply made it look like Holmes.
Then if you look closely at the time that Holmes theoretically reaches the ground after his fall there's a truck leaving from the place. My thinking is that Holmes jumped in the truck and the passerbys -who were also staged- placed the body on the scene. If you remember Holmes strictly said to Watson to maintain a certain distance from the building, so that he can not see what's happening. One of the main reasons of Holmes's suicide was to dissapear from the world itself so that he can work undercover. That premises that not even Watson has to know that he survived. That is clearly pointed out in the novels.
Now after the fall, Watson runs to the scene of the suicide. A cyclist hits him "accidentaly". He was also part of the story. My thought is that he injected something to Watson, something that contained a sort of drug that blurs the vision and causes nausea.

There have been many cases during the cold war, in which soviet agents injected little balls into enemies with umbrellas without the target ever noticing. These balls contained poison, which lead to death within minutes from the injection. As a result, I think it's very plausible.

All these led to Watson not noticing that the dead body wasn't Sherlock and thinking that his friend is dead, while he has made the escape of the century.

Now all these need very careful planning to be done. That's where I think Mycroft gets involved. He had access to the drug that was injected to Watson and his involvement is also suggested from the fact that when he reads the paper in the end of the episode, he's not that shocked as one might have expected.

[Captain Tightpants]

Holmes at the end of the episode goes to Molly asking for her help. Now we know Molly is working at the morgue. That means she has access to numerous bodies. For me she, along with Sherlock took a body and simply made it look like Holmes.

[...]

Now after the fall, Watson runs to the scene of the suicide. A cyclist hits him "accidentaly". He was also part of the story. My thought is that he injected something to Watson, something that contained a sort of drug that blurs the vision and causes nausea.

My problem with this theory is that 1) once he's up on the roof, Holmes never gives any indication to Molly to get the cadaver into position, 2) there were dozens of witnesses around, so even if Holmes somehow had Watson injected, it still doesn't account for everyone else seeing Molly get the body into position, and 3) Holmes went up onto the roof with every intention of coming back down via the stairs; it is never insinuated that Moriarty is trying to force him to jump off before Moritarty tells him to.

[David Schofield]

Just like to add that if Holmes went to all the trouble to fake his own death - which clearly he did - just to disappear, he rather stupidly then turns up at his own graveyard looking and dressed just like..... SHERLOCK HOLMES!!!!

Though I guess even that's part of the plan?!

(Big raised eyebrow smilie to be inserted at this point).

[Captain Tightpants]

We have no idea why Holmes was in the graveyard. I very much doubt it was to see who came to pay their respects. He's not a narcissit; he is a "high-functioning sociopath" (though I'd argue that he's probably got Asperger's). He may be there on a case.

[Aris007]

Holmes at the end of the episode goes to Molly asking for her help. Now we know Molly is working at the morgue. That means she has access to numerous bodies. For me she, along with Sherlock took a body and simply made it look like Holmes.

[...]

Now after the fall, Watson runs to the scene of the suicide. A cyclist hits him "accidentaly". He was also part of the story. My thought is that he injected something to Watson, something that contained a sort of drug that blurs the vision and causes nausea.

My problem with this theory is that 1) once he's up on the roof, Holmes never gives any indication to Molly to get the cadaver into position, 2) there were dozens of witnesses around, so even if Holmes somehow had Watson injected, it still doesn't account for everyone else seeing Molly get the body into position, and 3) Holmes went up onto the roof with every intention of coming back down via the stairs; it is never insinuated that Moriarty is trying to force him to jump off before Moritarty tells him to.

I think that Holmes was certain that things will come this way. If you remember he says to Molly "I think I'm gonna die".

Now when Holmes goes at the edge of the roof he says to Moriarty "Can you at least give me a moment of privacy?". That's when I think he looked down, where Molly was with the body. That was the sign for her to start the preperations. As for the witnesses, I suppose they were all set-up perhaps from Mycroft, because I don't think that Holmes could gather so many people at such a short period of time.

[Captain Tightpants]

I think that Holmes was certain that things will come this way. If you remember he says to Molly "I think I'm gonna die".

He does, but he doesn't know how it will happen, or when. When he goes up onto St. Bart's, he had every intention of talking Moriarty down by foiling his plans. He had no way of knowing that Moriarty intended to have him commit suicide. I'd say it's more likely that Holmes expected Moriarty or one of the assassins to kill him.

Now when Holmes goes at the edge of the roof he says to Moriarty "Can you at least give me a moment of privacy?". That's when I think he looked down, where Molly was with the body. That was the sign for her to start the preperations.

I still think this is highly implausible, and has been effectively debunked by the creators. The theory that Molly placed a body was one of the first to be suggested, but the creators read over the theories and said that audiences missed a vital clue as to how Holmes survived. That, to me, suggests that the theory of Molly placing a body is incorrect.

Even if Molly positioned the body, it still doesn't explain how Holmes survived jumping from the roof. After all, Moriarty's ploy was that the assassins had to see Holmes jump, or else they would shoot Watson, Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson, and there was one on-scene at the time. If they thought they were being played, they would have shot Watson and given the order to kill the other two.

As for the witnesses, I suppose they were all set-up perhaps from Mycroft, because I don't think that Holmes could gather so many people at such a short period of time.

Holmes said that he would not ask his brother for help.

[Aris007]

Firstly it's not clear where the killers were stationed. One was at Baker Str., the other was somewhere close to the scene of the suicide, but we don't know for sure. The sniper should have at a point from where he had clear vision of where Watson stood. So I'm guessing at a building next to St. Bart's.

The killers had orders to shoot if Holmes didn't jumo off the building. But Holmes did. He jumped on some sort of truck, which carried bags or something like that(I can't tell from the screenshot). Supposing that the killer had his eyes on Watson's moves and not on Holmes's fall he couldn't tell if Holmes killed himself or not.

Now, Holmes wasn't certain that he'd be forced to commit suicide. That was an option nontheless. Furthermore, if you remember Holmes picked the place of the meeting. This suggests that he had this in mind and probably was playing Moriarty from the beggining.

[marktmurphy]

We have no idea why Holmes was in the graveyard. I very much doubt it was to see who came to pay their respects. He's not a narcissit; he is a "high-functioning sociopath" (though I'd argue that he's probably got Asperger's). He may be there on a case.

I think it's simply because, despite himself, he's actually genuinely fond of John.

[David Schofield]

We have no idea why Holmes was in the graveyard. I very much doubt it was to see who came to pay their respects. He's not a narcissit; he is a "high-functioning sociopath" (though I'd argue that he's probably got Asperger's). He may be there on a case.

A man who visits his own grave is not a narcassist?????

"On a case"? Involving his own graveyard??? Yeh, maybe he's investigating how Sherlock Holmes faked his own death!

Big raised eyebrow smilie to my first point; wink smilie to my second.

[Single-O-Seven]

We have no idea why Holmes was in the graveyard. I very much doubt it was to see who came to pay their respects. He's not a narcissit; he is a "high-functioning sociopath" (though I'd argue that he's probably got Asperger's). He may be there on a case.

A man who visits his own grave is not a narcassist?????

"On a case"? Involving his own graveyard??? Yeh, maybe he's investigating how Sherlock Holmes faked his own death!

Big raised eyebrow smilie to my first point; wink smilie to my second.

I suspect he was keeping an eye on Watson more so than his own grave. It may be that he really wanted to let Watson know his death was a hoax but even seeing Watson weeping at his graveside couldn't push him to do it just yet. Clearly, he is waiting for the right moment and needs to keep Watson out of danger. I'm guessing he wants to clean up some of Moriarty's people and I'm betting one of them - possibly the shooter who had his sights on Watson - turns out to be Col. Moran.

As an aside, My feeling is that the season three premiere will contain elements of The Empty House (quite obviously). Given that they want to explore Watson getting married and moving on, I bet we can also count on The Sign of Four cropping up. Prrsonally, I Would love to see some of the Red Headed League adapted.

[Dustin]

A man who visits his own grave is not a narcassist?????

Actually, if I had a chance to I'm pretty sure I would visit my own grave. You would not?

[David Schofield]

A man who visits his own grave is not a narcassist?????

Actually, if I had a chance to I'm pretty sure I would visit my own grave. You would not?

If I wasn't really dead, I would be more interested in letting those I loved know I was still alive than seeing the kind of monument they made for me.

If I were dead, of course I would. (But then, who says I'm not a narcasisst!)

Big smilie wink

[Dustin]

A man who visits his own grave is not a narcassist?????

Actually, if I had a chance to I'm pretty sure I would visit my own grave. You would not?

If I wasn't really dead, I would be more interested in letting those I loved know I was still alive than seeing the kind of monument they made for me.

If I were dead, of course I would. (But then, who says I'm not a narcasisst!)

Big smilie wink

Guess I'm a narcist, too. And that probably won't change when I'm dead...

[Aris007]

Another thing that deserves to be analysed is "Did Moriarty really die?".

I mean what if the image of Moriarty we get is really an actor? This would explain why Holmes said to Watson "Tell everyone I was a fraud.". In this way the real Moriarty would still look over his shoulder even after Holmes's suicide.

[Captain Tightpants]

Firstly it's not clear where the killers were stationed. One was at Baker Str., the other was somewhere close to the scene of the suicide, but we don't know for sure. The sniper should have at a point from where he had clear vision of where Watson stood. So I'm guessing at a building next to St. Bart's.

The killers had orders to shoot if Holmes didn't jumo off the building. But Holmes did. He jumped on some sort of truck, which carried bags or something like that(I can't tell from the screenshot). Supposing that the killer had his eyes on Watson's moves and not on Holmes's fall he couldn't tell if Holmes killed himself or not.

Holmes would need to identify the location of the shooter before he jumped. I believe that is why he stopped Watson in his tracks - so that the shooter would be forced to expose himself to get a clear shot. But if the shooter was in another building and was watching Holmes, then Holmes would have to be confident that the shooter would not see him hit the ground. Even then, jumping into a truck would be difficult and dangerous, and would probably still kill him.

Basically, I think the idea that Holmes jumping onto a moving vehcile whilst Molly positioned a body made up to look like Holmes to be preposterous. It relies far too much on precise timing and precise angles, and events unfolding in certain ways. If so much as one of these is off, Holmes dies.

Holmes picked the place of the meeting. This suggests that he had this in mind and probably was playing Moriarty from the beggining.

I'd argue that it's quite the opposite. If Holmes was playing Moriarty from the beginning, then he would have been able to prove that Moriarty was threatening the jury, and the story never would have gotten to the point where they encountered one another on the roof.

I think it's simply because, despite himself, he's actually genuinely fond of John.

I think Holmes is the kind of person who already knows that, and doesn't need to confirm it. Everything he said on the roof of St. Bart's was intended to reaffirm Watson's faith in him.

A man who visits his own grave is not a narcassist?????

"On a case"? Involving his own graveyard??? Yeh, maybe he's investigating how Sherlock Holmes faked his own death!

Remember when he was testing the noose on the mannequin? He may have been convinced that someone else staged their death and was visiting the graveyard to investigate.

[marktmurphy]

Holmes would need to identify the location of the shooter before he jumped. I believe that is why he stopped Watson in his tracks - so that the shooter would be forced to expose himself to get a clear shot. But if the shooter was in another building and was watching Holmes, then Holmes would have to be confident that the shooter would not see him hit the ground. Even then, jumping into a truck would be difficult and dangerous, and would probably still kill him.

Well there's little doubt he jumped off the building unless there was a lot of editing trickery going on, and that would be a bit underhand. Sherlock jumping onto the lorry (which wasn't moving) which was filled with cardboard boxes or the like; not too hard to swallow. Then he jumps onto the ground and plays his own corpse.

[Aris007]

Holmes would need to identify the location of the shooter before he jumped. I believe that is why he stopped Watson in his tracks - so that the shooter would be forced to expose himself to get a clear shot. But if the shooter was in another building and was watching Holmes, then Holmes would have to be confident that the shooter would not see him hit the ground. Even then, jumping into a truck would be difficult and dangerous, and would probably still kill him.

Well there's little doubt he jumped off the building unless there was a lot of editing trickery going on, and that would be a bit underhand. Sherlock jumping onto the lorry (which wasn't moving) which was filled with cardboard boxes or the like; not too hard to swallow. Then he jumps onto the ground and plays his own corpse.

That wouldn't explain the blood and the absence of pulse though.

The killer obviously(I sound like sherlock, I know) was opposite the hospital in the block of apartments. That's explained because he has a clear shot on Watson's head at the end of the episode. Now I suggest that the killer saw that Sherlock jumped on the track. After the fall Sherlock rolled over the track to the pavement like he was hurt from the impact. Then he followed the track as it got away and the body was put immediately at the spot where theoretically Sherlock would have been after he got off the truck. The killer thought, seeing the blood and the body that Sherlock died when he hit the track so he got away.

That's the most reasonable theory I can think of.

[marktmurphy]

What track do you mean?

The blood and absence of pulse aren't impossible to explain; Molly supplied him with some blood, a stooge takes his pulse. There was even an idea that he'd taken some sort of pulse-inhibiting drug (which apparently explains his earlier sweating or something; I can't remember- it's not my theory).

[Aris007]

What track do you mean?

The blood and absence of pulse aren't impossible to explain; Molly supplied him with some blood, a stooge takes his pulse. There was even an idea that he'd taken some sort of pulse-inhibiting drug (which apparently explains his earlier sweating or something; I can't remember- it's not my theory).

I meant "truck", typing error. Truck, lorry call it what you like.

That's also an option, that Molly covered Holmes with blood, but the pulse-inhibiting drug is a bit far-fetched for me.

[killkenny kid]

http://www.pbs.org/w...piece/sherlock/

At last....

[Major Tallon]

At last indeed. The second series of "Sherlock" premieres tonight in the US.

[Single-O-Seven]

At last indeed. The second series of "Sherlock" premieres tonight in the US.

If you haven't seen it yet, you will be pleased. An excellent series of films. I'll say no more for now.

[jwheels]

Quick question for anyone who watched tonight: Was there a woman's voice doing a voice over the whole time? On my HD channel, there was a woman who sounded like she was reading from the script during the entire show, however when I switched it over to the SD channel, the voice over was gone. Just wondering if anyone else had this problem.

[Major Tallon]

Enjoyable as always; no constant female voiceover.

[Dustin]

You must have received the scene description for the hearing impaired.

[Dustin]

Nonsense! I meant blind!