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What type of timepiece should the next Bond wear?


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#31 Vodka Martino

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 05:32 AM

Interesting reading. Regarding my earlier post about Patek Philippe (looks up), what do the watch fans and experts here think of the company's products?  Their Nautilus and Aquanaut ranges are good for 130m; would Bond conceivably wear one?

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Pateks are probably the finest Swiss watches made and the only brand which is given the Seal of Approval by the Swiss Royal Family. They are probably the only brand that command such astronomical prices on the second-hand market.
Personally, I'm not a real fan of most of their models, but the plain Calatrava is a nice piece.
As for Bond wearing one, well it would last on his wrist past midday given the shenanigans he gets up to.

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#32 Vodka Martino

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 01:26 PM


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As for Bond wearing one, well it would last on his wrist past midday given the shenanigans he gets up to.

Vodka Martino

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What I meant was that a Patek WOULDN'T last on Bond's wrist past midday. Yeah, that was it.

Vodka

#33 Vodka Martino

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 01:31 PM

Excuse my ignorance here, since I prefer to wear Seiko and Citizen when it comes to watches, but I have a question for the timepiece afficiandos here.  Is Breitling a durable watch that Bond would wear?  Assuming we're taking into account that Bond's watch should not only do the job when pressed to extreme circumstances but it should look good as well.

Just wondering.

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In "Thunderball" , there's a quick shot of Bond underwater and there's a quick close-up of his watch. He's wearing the Breitling Top Time Chronograph. It's a big watch.

VM

#34 Vodka Martino

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 01:45 PM

That is my life and why I drink wine...it numbs the pain.If your wife is a fellow watch widow,she has my sympathies!  :)

I also think another good Rolex for Bond would be a Yachtmaster.

As for Breitling,I find them quite ugly and unattractive.

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Lady Rose, First of all, my wife is a watch AND Playstation widow. But I'm good with the kids so she lets me stick around.
Secondly, regarding the YachtMaster, no, no, no. Bond may be a snob, but the YachtMaster really screams 'Hey everybody, lookee me!'. Not ideal for a spy.
Thirdly, I find Breitlings very well made, but a tad over-designed. Too many little bits and screws that can fall off.
Enjoy your wine...in moderation.

Vodka Martino

P.S.- By the way, we have to stop meeting like this. People are beginning to talk. :)

#35 Vodka Martino

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 01:59 PM

I think Lindy Hemming was right in switching from Rolex to Omega...



Ice, I agree with everything that you said. The Rolex Sub is a great watch. The Omega is a great watch and a little more affordable than the Rolex. If we can't all spy for MI6, drive pricey Aston Martins or save Ursula Andress, Diana Rigg, Barbara Bach or Halle Berry, then can we admire a watch that's at least within our financial reach? But I've said this before.
And hey, I've got the same Seiko as yours. Great watch, robust and well priced.
By the way, how's the weather in North Queensland? It's a too damn hot one in Melbourne tonight.
I'm outta here. I think five posts in a row is quite enough from me. And I'm sober, too.

Vodka Martino

#36 Double-Oh-Zero

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 08:08 PM

I myself have an Omega Seamaster mid-size, and it hasn't let me down. Although I've always thought that substituting a leather strap for the bracelet might help to make it look a bit less "chunky." Then again, it might be impractical for Bond's usual wear-and-tear treatment of watches, especially around water.

I dunno. I say stick with the Omega. Or try a Seiko. Roger had a few of those, as I recall. Like Ice pointed out, Rolex has become more of a "snob watch" than ever before.

#37 Adrian Carlisle

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 04:24 AM

What about this Kobold Polar Surveyor thing? It's pricey as hell, but it looks to me every bit a serious navy man's watch.

http://www.koboldwatch.com/915151.htm#

#38 Pussfeller

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 06:25 AM

Hmmm, I like that Kobold! It has a sharp technical quality, although Fleming's Bond would probably scoff at its complexity. Anyway, I guess it all comes down to which manufacturer will pay the most.

#39 Icephoenix

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 07:04 AM

I think Lindy Hemming was right in switching from Rolex to Omega...



Ice, I agree with everything that you said. The Rolex Sub is a great watch. The Omega is a great watch and a little more affordable than the Rolex. If we can't all spy for MI6, drive pricey Aston Martins or save Ursula Andress, Diana Rigg, Barbara Bach or Halle Berry, then can we admire a watch that's at least within our financial reach? But I've said this before.
And hey, I've got the same Seiko as yours. Great watch, robust and well priced.
By the way, how's the weather in North Queensland? It's a too damn hot one in Melbourne tonight.

Vodka Martino

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Yeah, the Seiko is a great way of having a Bond like watch, without having to fork out the big bucks for one. It's tough and reliable, and well worth the money. As for the weather, it's bloody HOT, but I've been managing. Still - thank god for air conditioning.

#40 Adrian Carlisle

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 08:03 AM

When I went looking for a Bond watch, I settled on Invicta. Their divers look exactly like the Submariner (except the newer models have a scalloped, Omega-style bezel). I was put at ease about buying a blatant Rolex copy buy the people at the Invicta forum at WatchUSeek. It has a Miyota 21 jewel automatic movement, polished center links on the bracelet, and flat mineral crystal, but according to people that own a Submariner and have worn or also own the Invicta, it feels just the same. The case construction and bracelet are just as good as the Rolex, but it's rated to 200m depth instead of 300. It's basically the only watch I own, and as such, I wear it every day, and I love it. Best of all, it sells for only $100. There is a higher-end $300~ish version with sapphire crystal and an ETA (instead of Japanese) movement as well.

It looks the same as the Rolex; I know some people get pissed about that, but I wanted the Bond watch, and when I found this I was satisfied. And I looked a long while for a watch that had the look and was cheap enough. Seikos, at the time, were just a little more than I was willing to pay. But for my money, the Invicta 8926 (or blue dial 9094, like I have) is a damn good watch for someone trying to achieve a Bond look. And it might be a Rolex imitator, but at least it's not a Folex :) I was surprised when it wasn't included in the "cheaper alternatives" list at the end of the Seamaster feature article a few months back. THIS wasn't and Fossil was?! Here I was with this bang-on lookalike of the Sub for a FRACTION of the price and reading that article, yet it wasn't listed.

#41 Adrian Carlisle

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 08:10 AM

Here's a review of the newest incarnation of the Invicta 9937 by an Invicta and Rolex owner. He's not an Invicta mouthpiece, either.

http://www.rolexrefe...9937return.html

And here they are head-to-head, reviewed before he owned a Rolex but was an admirer (again, this is the 9937, which is basically just my watch with sapphire crystal and an ETA movement):

http://home.woh.rr.c.../rolex9937.html

#42 Simon

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 01:39 PM

Can't he wear a vintage watch, for a change? Preferably something a touch slimmer and classier, rather than those horrible chunky Omegas and Rolexes?

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That would be the bane of all those poor souls that have to rip it apart to fit the latest sfx gadget inside. Of course, they could just have a smart and practical watch without much more inside than a homer..........

#43 Triton

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 08:48 PM

For watch style, I prefer a luxury automatic diver's watch with a rotating bezel for James Bond. Certainly its a subjective matter of taste, but I find the design of the automatic diver's watch to be clean, rugged, handsome, and sporty. I know that some fans object to their bulk and describe them as "chunky" or "clunky".

Because of his "enthusiasm for water sports", such as SCUBA, it just seems to me that the James Bond character would be much more attracted to the automatic diver's watch and prefer it to any other style of luxury watch because of its durability while also looking smart with a dinner jacket or dress casual clothing.

As for which luxury automatic diver's watch, I prefer the Omega Seamaster Professional with is scalloped blue bezel and blue dial. But the Rolex Submariner is also a handsome watch with a long tradition with the James Bond films.

#44 Triton

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 09:53 PM

When I went looking for a Bond watch, I settled on Invicta.  Their divers look exactly like the Submariner (except the newer models have a scalloped, Omega-style bezel).  I was put at ease about buying a blatant Rolex copy buy the people at the Invicta forum at WatchUSeek.  It has a Miyota 21 jewel automatic movement, polished center links on the bracelet, and flat mineral crystal, but according to people that own a Submariner and have worn or also own the Invicta, it feels just the same.  The case construction and bracelet are just as good as the Rolex, but it's rated to 200m depth instead of 300.  It's basically the only watch I own, and as such, I wear it every day, and I love it.  Best of all, it sells for only $100.  There is a higher-end $300~ish version with sapphire crystal and an ETA (instead of Japanese) movement as well.

It looks the same as the Rolex; I know some people get pissed about that, but I wanted the Bond watch, and when I found this I was satisfied.  And I looked a long while for a watch that had the look and was cheap enough.  Seikos, at the time, were just a little more than I was willing to pay.  But for my money, the Invicta 8926 (or blue dial 9094, like I have) is a damn good watch for someone trying to achieve a Bond look.  And it might be a Rolex imitator, but at least it's not a Folex :)  I was surprised when it wasn't included in the "cheaper alternatives" list at the end of the Seamaster feature article a few months back.  THIS wasn't and Fossil was?!  Here I was with this bang-on lookalike of the Sub for a FRACTION of the price and reading that article, yet it wasn't listed.

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Thanks for the posts and the links Adrian. :) I've been very interested in purchasing an automatic diver's watch for some time with the style of the Rolex Submariner or the Omega Seamaster Professional. However much I find the Omega Seamaster Professional an attractive and desirable timepiece, even with discounts, there is just no that I can justify purchasing a wrist watch with a suggested retail price of $1895.00.

I always laugh when there are arguments over watch quality comparing one that is water resistant to 200 meters to another that is rated tot 300 meters.
Like their owners are ever going to descend to those depths that this pressure resistance will ever come in handy. :) It strikes as the amplifier discussion in This Is Spinal Tap. Is the Rolex Submariner 100 better?

Has the Invicta been of reasonable quality, durable, and accurate? Has it held up well? Although I can't break the bank to buy an Omega Seamaster Professional, I don't want to buy a discount store quality watch either.

#45 sidspappy

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 08:55 AM

Has the Invicta been of reasonable quality, durable, and accurate? Has it held up well? Although I can't break the bank to buy an Omega Seamaster Professional, I don't want to buy a discount store quality watch either.

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Although the question wasn't directed at me, and I don't actually have an Invicta, I will risk the opinion that the Invicta is a very good deal, and will be a perfect pseudo-Submariner.

From all my research done on watch forums, I have always heard good comments from Invicta owners. It seems each year, the models get better in quality and are now excellent values. The "standard" models use a Miyota movement in them. Miyota is the parent company of Citizen watches. Their movements are regarded as very good values for the price. I own a Citizen with an 8203 movement very similar to the movement in the Invictas, and I can tell you they are incredibly accurate (better than my Seikos), and are virtually bulletproof.

For a little bit more of an outlay, you can get the Invicta Sub-lookalike with the sapphire crystal and ETA movement. This brings up the quality and durability up a few notches. ETA movements are used in numerous Swiss models (including Omegas), but without the in-house finishing and modifications those companies do to justify their high-end prices.

Aside from movements, I have heard that the rest of the watch is nearly identical to the Submariner - or in some aspects (bracelet, clasp), even better. The only area I have heard criticism about is the luminosity of the markers, which are somewhat weak (have to bring costs down somewhere, right?), but not criminally so.

If I were to buy a Rolex-type piece (I also won't spend four grand on a watch), the Invicta would be my first and only choice.

#46 spynovelfan

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 09:08 AM

It's quite normal today for people to wear massive great divers' watches on their wrists in everyday life even if, as Triton says, they're never going to dive 200 or 300 metres. That's partly, I suspect, as a result of James Bond. But in the 50s or 60s, did people do the same? Would an MI6 agent really have worn a specıalıst diving watch with evening-wear? Would that not have raised a few eyebrows? Would it not have been more likely that someone in 007's position would have changed from the tux into the wetsuit, and at the same time as putting that on, and the fins, and the goggles, changed his watch as well? It's surely only a result of the inflation and exaggeration of action sequences in the Bond films that we feel it's in any way necessary for a British agent to be prepared to dive without changing his watch - because there's little time to show that in a two-hour film, and it was deemed more exciting to merge Bond's high life with his spying. Everything doubles up: cars become boats, pens grenades, and an agent may find himself at an embassy ball one moment and scuba-diving the next, without any opportunity (or screen-time) to change. Perhaps he should wear a neoprene tuxedo as well?

Connery's Bond is often hailed by fans as being the most plausible in the series. 'Bond was a real spy!' Sure, but the moment in Goldfinger where he rips off his wetsuit to reveal a DJ is, I think, arguably the beginning of Moore-ism. It's a classic cinematic moment - but at what cost? It makes us smile, it charms us, it wows us, but it also solidifies the character as pastiche. From that moment, James Bond is no longer a secret agent. He is ripped from the real world.

If we were to return to the character that existed before that moment, and excise the biiter tang of product placement in the process, James Bond would surely have two watches: one to wear with his lounge or dinner suit, and one to wear while diving to hidden underwater lairs. He would not need to consider the risible notion that the life of an intelligence agent might entail a deep-sea dive at any moment, because he would live in a version of the real world that would only be heightened to the limits of plausibility, and not beyond. Or, as Ian Fleming put it, the implausible, but not the impossible.

I maintain that wearing a diving watch with evening wear, even today, has the small risk of damaging Bond's cover and, with the chances of him not being able to change clothing infinitessimally small, he wouldn't do it. More importantly, diving watches are uniformly ugly, and I think Bond would rather drink herbal tea than wear one socially. It's so common, and the only people who do are those who have never gone diving in their lives. Bond has a pack with his wetsuit, fins, goggles, harpoon and diving watch given to him by the head of station when he needs it. He doesn't walk around with *one* minor piece of equipment needed for diving weighing down his wrist, just in case. It's not his style.

Edited by spynovelfan, 20 December 2004 - 09:20 AM.


#47 sidspappy

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 10:04 AM

To comment on spynovelfan's recent post about Bond never wearing a dive watch if he could help it:

I see where you are coming from, and you are probably right. Even in the books, Bond is using a Rolex Oyster Perpetual, not the more dive-oriented Submariner. I think the dive watch phenomenon in Bond stems from the usage of the Submariner. However, if I remember correctly, the Submariner came into use because in the early days of filming DN, it was discovered the production had not provided a suitable watch for Connery to wear as Bond. The director, Terence Young, who fancied himself a sophisticated Bond-type gentleman, insisted that Bond must wear a Rolex and took off his own Submariner and gave it to Connery to wear. It is this exact Rolex, I believe, is seen in DN, FRWL, GF, and finally TB. It used to be on a leather strap, but I'd wager that the damn thing probably rotted away and was replaced with the ill-fitting fabric band seen in GF and TB.

So over the years, it has been beat into our minds that Bond wears a big dive watch (except for most of the Moore years). And since film is a visual media, the more visible, the better. Accuracy or plausibility is not so much a requirement. This is why Pierce Brosnan is gallivanting around with a Seamaster while in tux, and not a Movado. If it was good enough for Connery in his fine white livery, why not Brosnan?

And besides, all this talk of reality, and how the real Bond wouldn't wear his dive piece to a formal gathering, we must remember that James Bond himself is so far removed from reality, it isn't even funny sometimes. I mean, our presidents in the U.S. wear only American-company timepieces (TIMEX, for pity's sake, made in the Phillipines!), and they wear them ALL THE TIME! In this day and age, wearing a Seamaster to a black-tie ball won't blow your cover, as the guy sitting next to you will probably be wearing a Casio!

That's reality!

#48 spynovelfan

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 10:11 AM

And besides, all this talk of reality, and how the real Bond wouldn't wear his dive piece to a formal gathering, we must remember that James Bond himself is so far removed from reality, it isn't even funny sometimes.

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Sure, but my point is that it would behoove the franchise if they were to take a step back in the direction of reality, rather than the other way. Part one of Die Another Day, not part two. Not to say the Bond films should become dull kitchen-sink spy stories - but we are talking about what watch he is wearing. :) Why not make it invisible, then? That way there would be no risk to his cover. He could wear a vintage Longines or Patek or whatever, and it could change, Transformer-style, into a Submariner. If you want to go science fiction.

I'd rather see James Bond wear an elegant, classy watch while under cover. And then see him get changed into the wetsuit, fins, goggles and watch when he needs to do that. The idea that he needs the diving watch on at the ball because he might go diving soon is daft - he doesn't wear a pair of glasses that can be used as goggles, or shoes that extend into fins.

I don't think it matters what watches a president wears. It doesn't change James Bond's taste - and that is for the most suitable, highest quality and most elegant product available. He would, I think, have two watches - one evening watch and one highly specıalısed diving watch. Not a high street amalgam of the two that everyone and his neighbour now wears.

Edited by spynovelfan, 20 December 2004 - 10:15 AM.


#49 sidspappy

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 06:56 PM

Why not make it invisible, then? That way there would be no risk to his cover.

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I really do see your point, but with today's modern, whacked out fashion sensibilities, I don't feel Bond would be at risk of blowing his cover wearing a dive piece, especially a Seamaster. Fashion requirements have relaxed over the years, which is why you hardly see everyday men walking around in suits and hats, like they used to even back in the DN movie timeframe. If you want to go retro, and capture the feel of the original novels, then yes, Bond should be showing up in black tie with a very elegant piece. But today? Nah, no one would even give it a second thought, which is exactly the point for an MI6 agent.

Given my lack of experience in real black tie affairs, can anyone out there relate any concrete anecdotes concerning what real people are wearing with their formal wear? I'd be very interested to find out what Bond would come up against today if he went to a real affair.

#50 Triton

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 08:04 PM

It's quite normal today for people to wear massive great divers' watches on their wrists in everyday life even if, as Triton says, they're never going to dive 200 or 300 metres. That's partly, I suspect, as a result of James Bond. But in the 50s or 60s, did people do the same? Would an MI6 agent really have worn a specıalıst diving watch with evening-wear? Would that not have raised a few eyebrows? Would it not have been more likely that someone in 007's position would have changed from the tux into the wetsuit, and at the same time as putting that on, and the fins, and the goggles, changed his watch as well? It's surely only a result of the inflation and exaggeration of action sequences in the Bond films that we feel it's in any way necessary for a British agent to be prepared to dive without changing his watch - because there's little time to show that in a two-hour film, and it was deemed more exciting to merge Bond's high life with his spying. Everything doubles up: cars become boats, pens grenades, and an agent may find himself at an embassy ball one moment and scuba-diving the next, without any opportunity (or screen-time) to change. Perhaps he should wear a neoprene tuxedo as well?

Connery's Bond is often hailed by fans as being the most plausible in the series. 'Bond was a real spy!' Sure, but the moment in Goldfinger where he rips off his wetsuit to reveal a DJ is, I think, arguably the beginning of Moore-ism. It's a classic cinematic moment - but at what cost? It makes us smile, it charms us, it wows us, but it also solidifies the character as pastiche. From that moment, James Bond is no longer a secret agent. He is ripped from the real world.

If we were to return to the character that existed before that moment, and excise the biiter tang of product placement in the process, James Bond would surely have two watches: one to wear with his lounge or dinner suit, and one to wear while diving to hidden underwater lairs. He would not need to consider the risible notion that the life of an intelligence agent might entail a deep-sea dive at any moment, because he would live in a version of the real world that would only be heightened to the limits of plausibility, and not beyond. Or, as Ian Fleming put it, the implausible, but not the impossible.

I maintain that  wearing a diving watch with evening wear, even today, has the small risk of damaging Bond's cover and, with the chances of him not being able to change clothing infinitessimally small, he wouldn't do it. More importantly, diving watches are uniformly ugly, and I think Bond would rather drink herbal tea than wear one socially. It's so common, and the only people who do are those who have never gone diving in their lives. Bond has a pack with his wetsuit, fins, goggles, harpoon and diving watch given to him by the head of station when he needs it. He doesn't walk around with *one* minor piece of equipment needed for diving weighing down his wrist, just in case. It's not his style.

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The comment that diving watches are "uniformly ugly" is surely a subjective matter of taste. Personally, I don't find the Rolex Submariner any less elegant or lesshandsome than the Rolex Oyster Perpetual.

Further, I presume that the only real difference in mass between the two is the rotating bezel on the Submariner so I don't believe that James Bond would have disdain for the Submariner because of its added weight.

Today, would it be an inexcusable fashion faux pas to attend a formal gathering wearing a "sport watch", however tasteful, with a dinner jacket? Would a "sport watch" be inexcusable with a lounge suit or dress casual clothing? Does Bond really need to have a watch for every occasion?

My comment that James Bond has "an enthusiasm for water sports, especially SCUBA" meant that he was an active person who enjoyed outdoor sports. Perhaps this projected image of activity by owning a Rolex Submariner, or other similar luxury diver's watch, might only alert suspicions if he was portraying someone who disliked physical activity, such as when he impersonated Sir Hilary Bray in the motion picture On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Today, I would presume that the leisure class engages in outdoor activities and so the inclusion of a diver's watch to one's wardrobe would not seem out of the ordinary. Plus, I believe that the Rolex Submariner and the Omega Seamaster Professional are more fashion statements than practical additions to one's SCUBA kit. I believe that there are much better choices of a diver's watch if one actually wants to know the time while SCUBA diving.

#51 sidspappy

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 08:41 PM

Today, I would presume that the leisure class engages in outdoor activities and so the inclusion of a diver's watch to one's wardrobe would not seem out of the ordinary. Plus, I believe that the Rolex Submariner and the Omega Seamaster Professional are more fashion statements than practical additions to one's SCUBA kit. I believe that there are much better choices of a diver's watch if one actually wants to know the time while SCUBA diving.

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Yes, exactly so! Ask any diver who entrusts his or her life to a metal tank of air on their back, and they will tell you - they use dive computers. The use of a dive watch is mainly useless and not required. It is indeed worn more for recreational/fashion use than anything else. At best, it will be a backup in the unfortunate event their dive computer fails.

In my view, Bond would rather have a watch that serves multiple uses, excluding any gadgetry inside them. Practicality, durability, legibility would be hallmarks in his dangerous line of work. The knuckle-duster comments are actually very apt. With this in mind, I think Bond would probably not give a care to what others at some formal affair think of his piece, much like the comments on another thread that postulates that Bond wouldn't frequent tailors that EVERYONE else goes to. His tastes and requirements are different than the "everyday" man.

Besides, how the heck is he going to get all those lasers, detonators, buzzsaws, piton launchers, flashlights, magnets, geiger counters, etc., etc. inside of a DRESS watch? You don't think he'd need them for a quick escape during a botched mission while attending a formal event? :)

#52 spynovelfan

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 08:52 PM

But Triton, you have missed many of the nuances in my post and its follow-on. :)

I didn't say Bond should have a watch for every occasion. I said he should have two - one for day-to-day wear, and one for the serious business of diving (which doesn't interrupt *so* many formal occasions, even in the world of 007). You yourself have admitted that the watch he does wear isn't the best for doing that - I argued in a post subsequent to the one you've quoted just the same: this kind of watch is generally worn by people who never dive, and Bond would have a specıalıst watch, rather than an expensive fashion hybrid. He'd surely be more likely to have a Doxa, like his poor imitation Mr Pitt.

However, it has been pointed out that in Dr No Bond selects a Rolex because it does the job, and of course there is the scene that I think you referred to in OHMSS, in which the same Rolex is wrapped round his knuckles. Although, as you have pointed out, it's a little out of character for his cover.

Perhaps my problem is that I simply don't like the look of sports watches. Yes, people wear them with dinner wear - it's a horrid thing to do, though, and I suspect James Bond, were he in our world, would deplore the practice. Bond, like his creator, is a snob, and he would take great delight in making the point I keep returning to, much to the chagrin perhaps of those of you who have shelled out for these monstrosities, that there is very little point in owning a watch that weighs three tons and will take you to the bottom of the sea if you can't even swim. :)

:)

It also seems to have been missed that I said there was scant chance that wearing such a watch would blow Bond's cover nowadays, though, again, I think in Fleming's day it would have been. Even Fleming made mistakes - hence the change of gun. And a real secret agent would never have worn the myriad colognes and soaps Bond is so fond of. Even in a fantasy world, it makes very little sense to be quasi-prepared for a deep-sea dive (sans fins, rubber suit and goggles, but hey, the watch is ready) and yet perfectly willing to sit in a garden blending black into blackness, still as a stone, while the scent of Floris alerts the assassin to your presence and identity. Ahem. My point was that small as the risk might be, there's no real advantage for Bond in wearing such a weighty and ugly thing, as if he is to go diving he will have to change anyway. Sure, Boothroyd can fit some devices in - but that has been done, rather, hasn't it? How refreshing if that weren't to happen for a few films, and the tricks emanated from some other accessory. His handkerchief, for instance.

But yes, it's subjective. Everything is. We're discussing what watch James Bond should wear, and we're discussing his tastes. James Bond isn't here to answer, and neither is his creator. James Bond, the literary creation, lived in another era. I'm trying to think about what that character would do if he were living now - I simply don't accept that the impostor who shaves with a Philips and wears ready-made Italian suits has the same taste as the character Fleming created. I think we all know what dictates Bond's tastes now, and that's cold, hard lucre. I also don't think it's impossible to correct Fleming on his own creation. Times have changed, and there's a surreal symbiosis between James Bond and the brands he favours - his very favouring of them often cheapens them. I contend this to be the case with Brioni, whose reputation has been superceded by its rival Kiton since it took on the Bond contract. Men like James Bond would rather not dress the same way as everyone else. The same could be said for Rolex - Fleming's use of the brand has led to its ubiquity. I think Fleming, were he still alive, would re-evaluate Bond's tastes, and the way that the character's success had changed the reputation and perhaps even quality of some of the brands he espoused; I think it's quite possible he might conclude just as I have.

But it's much more likely that I'm running around trying to find a way of getting 007 out of these monstrous lugs.

Tongue a little in cheek, and hoping to draw forth some more discussion on this extremely interesting issue,

spynovelfan

Edited by spynovelfan, 20 December 2004 - 08:56 PM.


#53 spynovelfan

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 09:11 PM

With this in mind, I think Bond would probably not give a care to what others at some formal affair think of his piece, much like the comments on another thread that postulates that Bond wouldn't frequent tailors that EVERYONE else goes to. His tastes and requirements are different than the "everyday" man.


Therein lies the problem. The 'everyday' man goes to James Bond films and models himself after Pierce Brosnan. Everyday men are in this forum, wearing Omegas and Rolexes. There is nothing out of the ordinary about wearing a Rolex - anyone who can afford one will. Same with Brioni. A man who really knows his stuff will seek a bespoke suit. He won't smoke Lark, but Morlands' hand-rolled. Product placement has a lot to answer for!

Another problem we haven't really explored, but which is relevant to watches in a way it isn't to Bond's suits, cigarettes, guns or cars, is that watches last much longer than the above. They actually last a lifetime. It's proven a problem for the great luxury watch manufacturers (of which there are now very few - it's like the music industry these days). 'You never actually own a Patek Philippe - you simply hold onto it for the next generation' or however the ad goes. They still run that ad, but the principle behind it is problematic - where's the revenue stream? If your customers keep handing their watches down to the next generation, you're not making any money. This is why many of the big watch corporations have taken to having 'licensed dealers' - you can spend 15 grand on their watch, but if it breaks, only a licensed dealer can help. The exchange for being a licensed dealer is to do the company's bidding. This includes handing over all the spare parts of that brand - which are then made into scrap metal. When the watch has a minor error, it becomes extremely expensive to replace - and only they can do it. Many smaller watch-repairers have protested against this, and tend to keep their spare parts despite the bullying of the multinational purveyors of time.

I think James Bond would see through all this. I think he'd quite possibly be wearing the precise same watch he wore in Fleming's day. It should still work. Okay, it's a Rolex - but it's a vintage one. That will satisfy me. :)

#54 sidspappy

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 09:17 PM

Tongue a little in cheek, and hoping to draw forth some more discussion on this extremely interesting issue,

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Wonderful, spynovelfan! If everyone said "yeah, give em the Rolex," this would have been a very short thread indeed. I welcome the discourse, and like you said, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

It must be quite difficult watching the current Bond movies, knowing of your distaste for dive/monstrous watches. I felt the same way for many years as a teen, seeing Moore and Dalton taking down scores of thugs and henchmen using a Walther PPK! During that time period, real data on stopping power of handgun rounds were being published, and the 7.65mm was not a stellar performer. Regardless of tradition and the romance of the Walther, my young mind could not reconcile the fact that Bond was not using an appropriate weapon, like Mel Gibson and Bruce Willis did in their day. It was a travesty, it was a joke (my views have matured over the years, I'd like to think). When Brosnan finally picked up the P99, I was overjoyed. Today, I would simply think "just throw some Glaser Safety Slugs in the PPK and all will be well." No fuss. I would just accept it.

So I truly understand any negative sentiments regarding his watch choices.

#55 spynovelfan

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 09:28 PM

So I truly understand any negative sentiments regarding his watch choices.


Oh, I hardly care. :)

#56 Triton

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 09:47 PM

Yes, perhaps Ian Fleming would not have given James Bond a Rolex since the watch is now a status symbol that one displays when "new money" has arrived or when one wants to give an appearance that they have arrived.

But what would he choose instead if he was presented with the choices today?

I just find that some of the wrist watches that have been suggested would seem gaudy to James Bond's tastes. Certainly James Bond is a snob, but he is never described as overadorned or flashy.

I find that Bond's choice of a Rolex Oyster Perpetual is an interesting insight into his personality. Certainly this is luxury wrist watch, but its design is clean, functional, and simple compared to other luxury watches. I would say the same of the Rolex Oyster Perpetual. I would presume that there were other flashier choices available during Fleming's time.

If given the choice today, I presume that Fleming would look at the relatively simple and no-nonsense analog faced watches manufactured by today's luxury watch makers.

It just seems to me that the Jaeger-Le Coultre Master Geographic, although a very handsome and elegant watch, would be too much for James Bond's tastes. The watch would be an excellent choice for a well dressed minister, lawyer, banker, captain of industry, or villain who has good taste. :)

However the choice of a Jaeger-Le Coultre Master Geographic is certainly better than the hideous and common late 1970's and early 1980's LCD Seikos or the even worse red LED Pulsar seen in Live and Let Die. James Bond should never have to wear the everyman's wrist watch and I presume that he would feel that an analog face is the only proper one for a wrist watch.

#57 sidspappy

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 12:16 AM

I find that Bond's choice of a Rolex Oyster Perpetual is an interesting insight into his personality. Certainly this is luxury wrist watch, but its design is clean, functional, and simple compared to other luxury watches. I would say the same of the Rolex Oyster Perpetual. I would presume that there were other flashier choices available during Fleming's time.

However the choice of a Jaeger-Le Coultre Master Geographic is certainly better than the hideous and common late 1970's and early 1980's LCD Seikos or the even worse red LED Pulsar seen in Live and Let Die. James Bond should never have to wear the everyman's wrist watch and I presume that he would feel that an analog face is the only proper one for a wrist watch.

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Great comments, but I'd like to interject something here:

We should remember that back in the days that Fleming wrote his books, Rolex was regarded as an upper-class brand, but not to the heights it enjoys today. Back then, from what I can tell, Rolexes were more of a "tool watch," worn by serious outdoor enthusiasts. Indeed, there are numerous advertising documents of the day that touted the Rolex's unique water resistant case, crown, crystal, etc. Back in the 50's these features were cutting edge. So, Bond's choice would have probably been more out of having a technologically advanced timepiece, and not one of luxury.

And the Pulsars and Seikos that Moore wore were technologically advanced for their day. The Pulsar in LALD was incredibly rare and expensive at the time. It was not gaudy or common, but the height of coolness (or luxury, if you will). The Seikos of Moore's day were viewed in the same light as Omega and other high-end brands are today. Remember in the late 70's to mid-80's, digital timepieces were seen as forward-thinking and highly sought after. The Swiss watch industry nearly perished in this era.

So the beliefs that we hold today about the value of certain timepieces cannot be held up against the pieces we see in Bond's past. We are missing the intent of the time - to show Bond as having the "best-of-the-best," to an extent. He wears what is cool and sought after at the time. Obviously, this is exactly where product placement rears its ugly head, but I think to state that what we've seen Bond with in the past detracts from his image now, is not taking historical aspects into account.

#58 Hitch

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 12:49 AM

Bond may well choose to wear a dress watch for social occasions, but I think my point about the makeshift knuckle-duster is valid. Whatever the appearance of the timepiece, it would still have to be fairly chunky to be an effective weapon. It's also very hard to spot, if you see my meaning. How many henchmen would frisk 007 for weapons but miss the watch? Bond, Fleming's Bond anyway, can be vicious when needs be, and a big lump of metal at the end of a right hook is just the kind of thing he would use.

More information please - if ever I get to the stage where I can afford something more complex than a sundial this thread will prove invaluable. But as for anyone else...

Two elderly ladies leave the cinema after seeing the premiere of Bond 21. "What did you think, Mildred?" "Most enjoyable, Agatha. But, my dear, the watches..."

:)

#59 Adrian Carlisle

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 02:26 AM

Has the Invicta been of reasonable quality, durable, and accurate? Has it held up well? Although I can't break the bank to buy an Omega Seamaster Professional, I don't want to buy a discount store quality watch either.

Well, Triton, all I can say is I've had it for about 7 months, and in that 7 months I've worn it every single day. The quality is superb. For $100 I got a watch with a case and braceletfor all intents and purposes IDENTICAL to the Rolex Submariner. At first the lack of a sapphire crystal concerned me, but again, I haven't scratched it in 7 months of daily use. The luminosity is rather weak, as it is Tritium as opposed to SuperLuminova, but to me that's not really an issue. You really do get a hefty, solid watch for the money with Invicta, As far as accuracy is concerned, mine gained about 5 minutes in around the first 2 months, which ain't bad at all :).

Bottom line: with Invicta you get a superb watch for the money. And for ~$300 you get one with sapphire crystal and a Swiss 25 jewel movement instead of the (very good and reliable just the same) Miyota 21 jewel movement. And with the new scallop bezel design, you get a blend of both the Rolex and the Omega. :) This is the watch every Bond fan should get if they're on a tight budget, though there are other options. I doubt there's any better value, though.

#60 Donovan

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 02:59 AM

When you think of the Bond movies, and maybe the novels, as a fan you probably recognize that the films created a phenomenon and would go on to be one of the most imitated film series of all time (even by themselves at times).

Rolex did the same thing in the world of horology. Before the Submariner, in 1926, Rolex created the world's first waterproof watch. Seven years later, with the introduction of the Submariner (the same year as the introduction of James Bond 007) Rolex provided a rugged, durable, and reliable timepiece not as a "status symbol" but to answer a demand. The design of the Submariner (featuring the first rotating bezel) has lasted over fifty years with minimal changes.

After seeing pictures of the other diver's watches--like the Omega Seamaster, it would seem that the Rolex Submariner, like the Bond films, is a successful icon of innovation relentlessly imitated. So much so that the significance of the Submariner, in terms of appearance and function, is lost on the casual observer.

Two additional points: I own a Rolex Submariner because I wanted it and was lucky enough to get an opportunity to acquire it. Whatever someone thinks about me because I wear it is as meaningless to me as a blizzard in the Arctic Wastelands.

Also someone talked of a difference between a Rolex Submariner and a Rolex Oyster Perpetual. Submariner is a type of Rolex. Oyster means the case is made for underwater use. Perpetual refers to the kinetic winding mechanism. In other words, a Submariner is a Rolex Oyster Perpetual watch. A Chronometer is a watch that was vigorously tested to ensure precision performance. Today, all Rolex models that include a date feature (like the Submariner Timothy Dalton wore in Licence To Kill) are Chronometers.

p.s. Does anyone know for certain that it was Terence Young who loaned his Sub to Connery for "Dr. No"? I've also heard/read it was Cubby Broccoli, who also wore that style watch for a time (no pun intended).

Edited by Donovan, 22 December 2004 - 01:12 PM.