26 replies to this topic

[White Persian]

I like the Brosnan Bond movies a lot, not least for their sharp, witty scripts, but there are a couple of things I just don't get.

GOLDENEYE. In the pre credit sequence, I realise that Trevelyan's apparent death at Ourumov's hands must have been a set-up to allow him to defect. Fine. But in that case why allow 006 to kill heaps of Russian guards, all in order to convince Bond, whom they're trying their level best to kill any way. What's more, 006 could have quietly defected before Bond got into the Archangel plant, and the guards could have waited for Bond and eliminated him without fuss. Both double-o s would be presumed killed on their mission. If the defection was a spur of the moment thing, why does 006 call out "For England, James", meaning "complete the mission".
Whichever way you look at it, it makes no sense.

T.W.I.N.E. The parahawk attack. We assume they come from Renard to kill Elektra - and but for Bond and his silly inflato-vest they would have succeeded. But... Elektra and Renard were really in cahoots, so she wasn't the target. But Bond had invited himself along in the copter on the spur of the moment, so how could HE be the target? And if it was all a mock attack to convince Bond that Elektra was in danger (which he already believes anyway), you still have the problems that Elektra and Bond were damn near killed, and how could it all have been set up so quickly?
The cynic in me says it was a gratuitous action set piece and they hoped nobody would stop to think.

[White Persian]

Uh huh. Can I interest in buying the Sydney Harbour Bridge?

[Blue Eyes]

Not right now. I'm still trying to organise London Bridge this week. Perhaps next weeek ? ;p

[Jacques Nexus]

[quote]Blue Eyes (11 Jun, 2001 05:34 a.m.):
That's what I was getting at Nexus![/quote
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Just agreeing with you Blue Eyes. My explanation is a lot clearer to understand.

[Blue Eyes]

Perhaps they didn't really care if Bond died either way. Here what I think:

Trevelyan has previously bribed/cohorted with Ouromov. They decide their business etc... Remember Trevelyan mentions to Bond that he was thinking of asking him to join the Janus Syndicate? Well that happens after the defection. Hence, during Bond's escape Oroumov was half hearted because there was still the chance of a strong ally. Though he never told the gaurds (obviously) of this, and hence they still try. And why kill all the Russians? As if Oroumov gives a stuff about them! Oroumov hence doesn't care if Bond dies, Trevelyan does!

[Blue Eyes]

I know Thank you

[White Persian]

That helps a lot... I was forgetting that Ourumov was embracing private enterprise. I still don't understand Trevelyan's "For England, James" cry, though. It only seems to make sense if he's still loyal to MI6.

[The Admiral]

I must say that I was watching Goldeneye yesterday, and I was thinking about the pre-title sequence.

You know when Ouromov hsa 006 at gun-point to the head, and he tells Bond to come out. Well when Ouromov shoots 006 (with a blank obviously!) wouldn't Bond have noticed it was fake? If Ouromov - at that range had shot 006, his whole head would have blown off? There would have been blood everywhere! Wasn't it a bit obvious that Ouromov hadn't killed him?

[Digitarius]

There are many implausible moments in Bond films, especially in the Moore-era, but those are usually not picked out by audience who only watches it once. Only true Bond fans who watch the films over and over again would pick out those 'flaws'.

[Blue Eyes]

Exactly I mean, how the hell does a space shuttle take off from a 747??

[Trempo]

White Persian,
In the TWINE book Bond has the feeling he was observed when he drove to the construction site. It was Renard and he ordered the parahawks to attack. And he wants the snow 'covered in blood'.

[mrmoon]

On the subject of the Goldeneye pre-title sequence, if you pause the DVD as bond jumps off the dam you can see a white van and the crane parked on the dam.

[Blue Eyes]

Trempo (24 May, 2001 07:20 p.m.):
White Persian,
In the TWINE book Bond has the feeling he was observed when he drove to the construction site. It was Renard and he ordered the parahawks to attack. And he wants the snow 'covered in blood'.

That's the scene I was going to make reference to but I hadn't looked it up yet. From memory Renard is watching from several times, including Sir Robert Kings funeral.

[Digitarius]

GoldenEye: Only Oumurov was in it with 006. 006 said 'For England, James' to keep up Bond's spirits as they run into the compound, and also not to act suspicious so that Bond will notice. That phrase was probably a cliche by Travelyen and he says it before every mission. He had to try to convince Bond that he's still MI6 through and through, or otherwise Bond might get a sniff of what's happening and get the hell out of there before anything happened.
TWINE: It was obvious that Renard outguessed Bond, and looking at his file (womanising, etc, etc.) he knew that 007 will go with Elektra every inch of the way. The parahawks were ready and waiting, and so Renard sent them to kill 007 and 007 only. In the book afterwards, he was described as being very angry that Bond wasn't dead, and he went on a snipering mission afterwards to try to kill 007.

[White Persian]

Imagine how angry Renard would have been if Bond and Elektra had both been killed!
Thanks for the comments. I'm a little happier with both sequences, but still feel something's not quite making full sense.

Don't get me started on Bond in freefall overtaking an accelerating plane, though!

[Jacques Nexus]

Blue Eyes (08 Jun, 2001 01:56 a.m.):
Well I always took the freefall like this. Bond simply moved into the right position so he would be more aerodynamic, hence less wind as an up force. The plane fell on enough of an angle to cause a higher up force than that acting on Bond.

It's not perfect. But it puts my mind at rest

Skydivers know how to accellerate in freefall. At the right angle they can travel pretty fast. Impossible or not, it's a wonderful idea.

[Blue Eyes]

That's what I was getting at Nexus!

[Jacques Nexus]

White Persian (07 Jun, 2001 08:53 p.m.):
...Don't get me started on Bond in freefall overtaking an accelerating plane, though!

It's a Bond movie. Don't let reality get in the way of a good idea.

[Blue Eyes]

Well I always took the freefall like this. Bond simply moved into the right position so he would be more aerodynamic, hence less wind as an up force. The plane fell on enough of an angle to cause a higher up force than that acting on Bond.

It's not perfect. But it puts my mind at rest

[Icephoenix]

Blue Eyes (08 Jun, 2001 01:56 a.m.):
Well I always took the freefall like this. Bond simply moved into the right position so he would be more aerodynamic, hence less wind as an up force. The plane fell on enough of an angle to cause a higher up force than that acting on Bond.

It's not perfect. But it puts my mind at rest

Well, sorry I gotta wake up ur mind :-(
lol, Im TMWTGG speacial edition, it has the bonus OO stunt men feature. ON it they showed the Goldeneye stunt, with the plane. The plane has more mass (or whatever) so it falls faster, so when they did the stunt the skydiver jumped out first, then they dropped the plane afterwards. A pretty cool trick.

[Jim]

What I don't get is why the plot of GoldenEye is the most catastrophically self-defeating scheme imagined.

Aim the GoldenEye at London, fire it seconds after a hatload of financial transactions out of the Bank of England and then fire the GoldenEye, destroying ('mongst others) good lord no, the pound. Save the pound et cetera. Is GoldenEye an allegory for the Central European Bank. Who knows? Who, actually, cares?

Back to the plot. Wipe out the British economy, fine, revenge, evil giggles, I was always better. However, the British economy is one of the world's major economies. Wipe it out and it's going to have a fairly sizeable effect on wherever you invest all those ill-gotten gains, probably render them totally worthless. You may be mad little Alec, but I didn't think you were stupid.

Here's Jim's far superior version of the said plot. 006 defects to the Soviet Union in 1986 (we are led to believe). Ourumov is a high ranking Soviet officer. Same year, there's a little mishap at Chernobyl. What happened? Crivens! A GoldenEye malfunctioned! No! Argh! Ouch, burn etc.

Nuclear meltdown assists the meltdown of the Soviet Union. GoldenEye is theoretically resigned to history (would explain why nobody seems to be aware of it); it's a little dangerous. Trevelyan acquires wealth, Ouroumov power. They pinch a GoldenEye. Trevelyan, bit miffed at ma and pa being (shiver) betrayed, decides to fire the GoldenEye at a nuclear power station outside London. Not sure if there is one, but what the hell, let's put one there. Will mean big bang. Will mean lotsa deaths. He's got a lot of money anyway (how do you buy a big ugly train if not?). Doesn't need the money. Just happy killing people. Lots of them. More than were killed in 1945, but that's "inflation adjusted" for you.

Hard to say what Ouroumov would be in it for, unless it's for the same reasons as General Orlov. What the hell, most of the rest of GoldenEye has been seen before. Matters not; Ouromov still buys it on the train.

I appreciate that a lot of this has been pinched from Permission to Die, but that was a teensy bit woeful and had a villain called Erik who was therefore unthreatening.

[Blue Eyes]

That's an interesting plot.

But on the original GE plot. Wouldn't mad little Alec have just placed the money into another currency? Say US Dollars. Then as the pound crashes he still has the same value money, which could possibly surge with the downfall of Sterling as the Dollar is based on Gold?

[White Persian]

A villain called "Erik" is unthreatening...but a villain called "Alec" is?
Or Elliott for that matter.
Whatever happened to baddies with names like Auric and Ernst and Karl and Hugo?

[Jim]

Yeah, but the nature of world economies is that they're all intertwined anway and there are substantial US investments in the UK. Might not take the dollar down with it, but it's likely to have some effect.

As for Karl and Ernst etc... maybe they ran out of German names and started on English ones. It's when the Welsh names start popping up that we have to worry. Daffyd is not inherently threatening.

[White Persian]

Jim (09 Aug, 2001 08:17 a.m.):
Yeah, but the nature of world economies is that they're all intertwined anway and there are substantial US investments in the UK. Might not take the dollar down with it, but it's likely to have some effect.

I guess Trevelyan felt he could afford to have his enormous profit partially reduced by a worldwide economic downturn since that was offset by the satisfaction of his fiendish revenge,

It's when the Welsh names start popping up that we have to worry. Daffyd is not inherently threatening.

It could still happen if they keep chasing Anthony Hopkins to play the villain...
Evans the butcher, Evans the post, Evans the psychopathic megalomaniac...

[White Persian]

Sorry, that second paragraph was my comment, not part of the quote. Not trying to put words into your mouth, Jim.

[Jim]

No apology required; the words used were considerably more coherent that mine could ever be.