117 replies to this topic

[spynovelfan]

Another writer who's 'almost too obvious' is George MacDonald Fraser. Incidentally, Amis was also a huge Flashman fan, and liked Modesty Blaise a lot, too. I think Fraser and O'Donnell might both have been able to provide Bond novels better than Fleming's (sacrilege, sacrilege!).

Edited by spynovelfan, 02 March 2005 - 10:30 PM.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

I remember ordering this from public library where I lived in the late 80s, as I was reading the Flemings at that time.  I don't recall getting to finish reading it back then, and am very curious to revisit this one now.  I have heard it is rare and very expensive.  Is this true?  If so, what are my options, besides taking out a mortgage?

Try ebay, that's where I got mine for about 5 bucks.


Though I wouldn't go as far as Loomis in saying only YOLT can rival CS, I'd say it is most certainly the best non-Fleming Bond book. A little shaky on characters perhaps.

[Bond111]

Just fininshed this one quite recently. It took me months to finish as I got stuck in the middle. Two-thirds of the way into the book it seems to slow to an almost stand-still. Maybe it's just me, but I could not get into the text at all. Amis seemed to fill pages with irrelevant 'facts' that seem to have only harmed the story.

If there's one redeeming factor for this book it's the ending and the scenes leading up to it. The book really comes off as a below-average Bond novel with an outstanding ending to me.

One thing I didn't like about the ending, though, was

/spoiler.gif

Colonel Sun seemed to live longer than any sort of plausibility would dictate. It's one thing to say he's of almost in-human will, but surviving those kinds of conditions is a little extreme.

/gen_line.gif

In a few years' time I will come back to this one, hopefully next time I'll enjoy it more. Not to say that the novel is absolute rubbish, I just think it's quite overrated.

[Qwerty]

Just fininshed this one quite recently.

Congrats!

[Bond111]

Just fininshed this one quite recently.

Congrats!

Thanks, I consider it one of my greater accomplishments.

[Trident]

It's funny but I remember when first reading "Flashman" in 1984 (Right now I found out the book was first published in 1969! I can't believe it! Glidrose certainly had to ask him, didn't they?) I constantly had the feeling MacDonald Fraser would have been a worthy successor to Fleming. Strange, as his Flashman is a kind of anti-Bond and not excatly what I would call a hero to identify with easily. Only later I learned he was the author of the Octopussy script (though I'm not very happy with that movie and would rather have read an original Bond novel by him).

What makes MacDonald such a perfect candidate IMO is that he writes fantastically colourfull adventure storys and the Bond plot is always more on the adventurous side with often more than a bit of fantastic elements. There are lots of down-to-earth thriller writers that deliver quite "realistic" storys and still don't lack enough action to thrill the readers (Daniel Silva for example). But there are only such a few that provide the very special blend of adventure, strenous action, hair raising danger and exotic places and people required for a good Bond novel. And MacDonald surely is one of the few, as is O'Donnell.

On the other hand a story completly in fantastic setting and sf-elements with over-the-top action packed in every second page as Matthew Reilly became famous for would not work with Bond whose basics are set in the highly improbable (at the most), not in the downright impossible. This halfway-realistic basis of Bond is shared by Modesty Blaise (and Flashman for that matter). Reilly might write some pretty good action scenes for a Bond movie but I don't think it would work with the much slower pace of a Bond novel.

As regards to the slowing down of CS in the mid of the book I had a few difficulties myself, when first reading it. To tell the truth, I wasn't very fond of Markham (only later I learned, it was Amis) after that first reading. But when I picked it up after some Gardners (LR; FSS;ICEBREAKER and ROH, I think)a couple of years later I fell deeply in love with it. Ok, it has its weak sides and not all the story pulls off well. But it shows such a dramatic POTENTIAL! I know, its weired praising a book for what it might have been. But I simply can't help but thinking of all the works Amis might have written had he been given the chance.

A similar feeling creeps through my veins every time I read Christopher Woods "Moonraker" movie-tie-in. There is somebody actually capable of writing teriffic novels about Bond and bringing him into a modern world without throwing all his phantastic elements out of the window and Glidrose didn't seem to care! Just one example:
When Bond is fetched by jet from Dakar he has a fight with enemy-agents, disposes of one oponent by throwing him out of the plane and then gets thrown out himself; minus parachute, mind you. In the movie he simply caches up with the guy he just threw out, fights with him and then grabs his parachute and gets rid of the baddie for good (and then meets Jaws, fights with him and then gets rid of Jaws for not-so-good).

In the novelisation Wood explaines Bond had a refresher-course in parachuting in Aldershot where he met the 'Red Devils', an elite para-troop and got the hang on maneuvering in free fall at least in theory. Its only a few sentences that explain Bonds capability but they make the whole sequence so much more believable. And refering to Bonds alarming med-report, his cigarette intake, his drinks and later on his bumping heart, the sweat of fear and the pain in his head while trying to close the straps of his captured parachute lends to the tight atmosphere of the chapter.

A chapter that contains all the elements of Bond in itself: Bond luxuriating in a first class executive jet enjoying a cigarette (the 50.st!) and the looks of a beautiful and exotic girl while ordering a vodka-martini. Then the life-threatening danger on the point of a gun barrel; a fierce struggle with the enemy, first on board then in mid-air. And lastly the hair-breadth rescue, accomplished by a live-and-death fight and sheer willpower. Magnificent! (Please forgive me. I've got taken away.)

Edited by Trident, 03 March 2005 - 03:52 PM.

[spynovelfan]

Great post, Trident. I think you're spot-on about O'Donnell and Fraser. Fraser, especially, seems to me to have everythign Fleming had and moire besides. Fleming managed to take obscure and fascinating pieces of research, about countries, cultures, the natural world, weaponry, crime, and so on, and weave them into a gripping and stylish story. Fraser does that, but even more so. If Fleming manages to take an interesting fact and cleverly and coherently use it in an exciting manner by 1,000 fold, I think Fraser does it by a higher factor even than that. Has anyone ever found anything but the tiniest of errors in his books? Consider the amount of research he must have done to pull that off. And yet, despite all the painstaking research, it doesn't slow anything down. I read Flashman adventures when I was 14 or 15, and loved them. Granted, I might not have read all the footnotes, but the research never felt it was serving the story - the two always seemed to fit effortlessly together. I also don't think Flashman and Bond are *so* very different. Everyone else's impression of Flashman is identical to how the world sees Bond. And they're both rogering rogues, winning out for the empire, fading to black with the girl in their arms, having somehow, against all the odds, managed to survive and saved the world in the process. Sure, Bond isn't a coward, and he really was trying to save the world, but I think the two characters share a lot of the same spirit. I wish there'd been a little more of Flashman in Amis' Bond, for example.

I think some enterprising and imaginative people could make a proper series of Flashman films a great success. Won't happen, of course.

For anyone who hasn't read Flashman, do. They are brilliantly executed entertainments on a par with Ian Fleming's best work.

[Lazenby880]

Just had Colonel Sun delivered from abebooks.com and I thoroughly look forward to reading it. Will post a review once I have read it, which should not be long given that - from the reviews already posted here and elsewhere in the Amis forum - this seems like exactly the sort of Bond novel I would enjoy.

[ACE]

I think Colonel Sun is the best non-Fleming James Bond novel.

While the story takes it's time, Amis understands Fleming's Bond. His introduction to the 1989 Coronet edition makes it clear that he was avoiding the filmic Bond. The James Bond Dossier and The Book of Bond (both written by Amis) set out the Amis' take on the literary Bond and his basic, survivalist, Bond is good. Amis hated M as a character and duly gave the Admiral tough treatment in CS.

I think Amis' writing is very good. His words work and he captures Athens beautifully. Having been there last year and followed, somewhat, in Bond's footsteps I think he conveyed the town and the people well. His description of the "crafty looking" horse in the Holbein tapestry in the bar of the Grande Bretagne is so accurate I laughed out loud while drinking there!

Amis never seriously considered writing a second Bond novel. I had an opportunity to ask him about this directly once and he said he'd run out of ideas. He also had his own literary journey to travel. He didn't want to spend his career polishing another man's gold.

I take SpyNovelFan's points about the lack of outlandishness and the bizarre in the novel but I always found it a worthy successor to Fleming. It was written with care and affection and belief and by a premiere writer of contemporary British fiction.

ACE

Edited by ACE, 24 August 2005 - 01:39 PM.

[spynovelfan]

I think that's a fair assessment, ACE. Facinated that you met him - what was he like? I always imagine him as a great angry toad. Pity he didn't write any other Bonds, or thrillers, I think - I'd have liked to have read them.

Of the non-Fleming Bond novels I've read, CS is easily the best - but I do feel it's become very over-rated. I think a combination of the circumstances and time in which it was written, the fact that it was a pseudonym for a very well known writer, that it was a one-shot (see OHMSS!), that it's become quite obscure and, as Jim points out in this thread, been fairly ignored by Fleming's estate, all give it an allure of a 'find', and I think people are consequently naturally inclinded to sing its praises.

But I'm repeating myself.

[ACE]

Yes, I dare not put CS and Brioni in the same sentence with you!

I agree. People "discovering" it tend to go a bit overboard. And I hear what you are saying about the lack of any comparisons. A number of 1960's spy novelists could have had as successful a crack at a continuation Bond.

Jim's point about the sort of orphan status of CS is noted. However, it was reprinted in the about 15 years ago and given a new forward by Amis.

In those days, Glidrose's view was let's concentrate on current product i.e. John Gardner. I'm sure now they want all attention on Charlie Higson and do not want the media waters muddied with attention on Benson, Gardner, Amis, Pearson, Wood and R D Mascott. Which is understandable.

To clear up a couple of points on this and other threads.

The "Reichenbach Falls" short story Amis relates in his wonderful Bondage #13 interview with Raymond Benson was very much tongue-in-cheek. It was not meant to be a serious attempt at a Bond short story.

CS is often mistakenly said to based on unused ideas from Fleming that Amis used as the basis for an original novel. This is actually put out in a couple of Eon film brochures. Seems to me a combination of the fact that Amis tidied up the manuscript of MWGG and also the Geoffrey Jenkins continuation novel Per Fine Ounce which had input from Fleming.

Amis was pithily critical of the subsequent film series and the early Gardner novels.

But for fans of the literary Bond, any half decent continuation novel was always eagerly anticipated if only to pan it for the gold of a couple of vintage Bond moments.

I eagerly await anything new on Bond and enjoy it to the fullest extent I allow myself to.

Even a new Rolling Stones reccud has one or two good moments...

ACE

[spynovelfan]

Brioni? Is he that villain in the unpublished story Fleming wrote?

I believe the Amis tidying TMWTGG is *also* a myth, and one that is dispelled in his collected letters. Think they asked him to do it and he made some critiques of it (Scaramanga queer, and so on), but they ignored him. He cut into the book after publication, I believe. Again, Chinese whispers, as is much of this stuff.

As it stands, we only have Jenkins' word for Fleming's input, but I'm currently knee-deep in that. News soon, *I hope*.

EDIT: In the interest of not spreading any more Chinese whispers, this should clear up the Amis/Gun question. The key letter is the one to Maschler on October 5, 1964. So yes, it looks like he proofread it, and was paid some bottles of wine for that, but rewriting or rejigging he doesn't seem to have done, and his suggestions on how some of that could be done were rejected. Is proofreading the same as tidying? In one thread, yes. In the next, it means rewriting. Five steps down the line, Amis wrote the whole novel and Frank Sinatra sang From Russia With Love.

[ACE]

Brioni? Is he that villain in the unpublished story Fleming wrote?

I believe the Amis tidying TMWTGG is *also* a myth, and one that is dispelled in his collected letters. Think they asked him to do it and he made some critiques of it (Scaramanga queer, and so on), but they ignored him. He cut into the book after publication, I believe. Again, Chinese whispers, as is much of this stuff.

As it stands, we only have Jenkins' word for Fleming's input, but I'm currently knee-deep in that. News soon, *I hope*.

LOL! Yes the short story was Crimes of Fashion.

Sorry, SNF, are correct. Again. What I meant to say Amis had some involvement (however defined) with a Fleming novel prior to publication. This is supposedly the kindling on which the fire of tidying up work by Fleming was built on. It was in his correspondence with Tom Maschler, I believe.

I hope you find what you are looking for, SNF.

ACE

Edited by ACE, 24 August 2005 - 02:04 PM.

[spynovelfan]

Beatchatoit.

On the other thing, fingers crossed.

[ACE]

When your numerous lady friends told me you were "quick", I didn't know what they meant.

Until now....



ACE

Edited by ACE, 24 August 2005 - 02:05 PM.

[Lazenby880]

I had an opportunity to ask him about this directly once and he said he'd run out of ideas.

Need to know; what was he like?

From the correspondence with Philip Larkin and his comments regarding John Gardner's Licence Renewed (and then saying something quite different to Mr Gardner's face leading to the latter's rather famous comment) I have always thought of him as a sanctimonious old coot. A literary great, but a pompous one nonetheless.

However, one could only know if one had met him, which ACE has. So come on ACE, spread the wealth.

Edited by Lazenby880, 24 August 2005 - 03:17 PM.

[ACE]

I met in him a context related to cricket.

I was at a gathering. I stole a few moments with him.

I had also spoken to him once on a radio phone in.

I do not know him at all. He was perfectly pleasant and polite and was slightly amused at the subject coming up in that present context.

It was like a lot of those rent-a-crowd (well, I had been invited) gatherings in London. You would have to know who Kingsley Amis was and what he looked like. He was not there as a celebrity and did not have a label on him.

In this manner I have "met" a lot of interesting people. As I'm sure have a lot of people posting here.

I did not know him. I cannot say anything in that he answered me with enthusiasm and intelligence and treated me perfectly well.

We never know celebrities. No matter how much press they take up, their inner workings are kept from most strangers.

Do we really know our friends, our family? A lot of time, people do not listen and are not interested in others. They spend the time that other people are talking thinking what they are going to say next.

So, let's not overstate my case. I met Amis. Briefly. Once. Spoke to him twice. Both occasions asked him about Colonel Sun. And Glidrose.

Sorry, no wealth to share.

And if he'd told me anything earth-shattering, I would think very carefully before posting it (if at all). Discretion is the better part of valour.

ACE

Edited by ACE, 24 August 2005 - 03:29 PM.

[Lazenby880]

I take your point about not having had the opportunity to have a lengthy conversation with Mr Amis, as well as your question about how well we really know people. Sometimes when people are rude there is a mitigating reason for it and they would not normally be like that. At least you got to meet him. Good to know he was polite.

The reason I asked was that I know people who have met vaguely famous persons and their perceptions of them were quite different than the reality. In my case it tends to be politicians, many of whom are rather different than what they appear publicly (shan't mention names though and most of them are, contrary to what people tend to think, very friendly).

And if he'd told me anything earth-shattering, I would think very carefully before posting it (if at all). Discretion is the better part of valour.

Edited by Lazenby880, 24 August 2005 - 03:52 PM.

[spynovelfan]

Very interesting indeed. Nice observations, too. I think one advantage of this sort of discussion is that people do tend to listen more (although perhaps I'm deluding myself there, as people also just skip posts or don't read them properly in their rush to proclaim their opinion - ever the optimist). If we 'know' Amis at all, his personal correspondence, which I'm sure he never thought would be published, offers a glimpse. Although, of course, even there I'm sure there was much posing going on. Certainly seems clear that Larkin very much wanted to pose as a worldy 'I know Bond as well as you' bluff hearty chap with a sharp wit to please Amis, when most of what else we know of him suggests he was nothing of the sort. But are any of us even one identity?

Getting a bit deep.

My impression of Amis from reading some of his letters and essays is that he was a pretty big to a lot of people. As if it matters. I think the saying something different to Gardner's face is a little unfair, because Gardner threw it at him, and what was he going to do? What would you do? Would you *really* say, 'Yes, sorry John, but I do think they're dire and that you can't write exciting thrillers. Pisspoor and lame. Sorry, but I do. Now, where are we sitting?' or would you just think 'Bugger' and say 'No, no, old chap, of course not, of course not!' he was caught out; unfortunate, but I think most of us would be cowards in that situation. I once found myself sitting next to John Bayley at dinner, and told him how much I'd enjoyed reading his essays on Shakespeare. We started discussing literature, and I said I had a fondness for novels written in the Fifties and Sixties. We discusses various writers we both enjoyed, and then he asked me if I'd read anything by his wife, Iris Murdoch, who was sitting at the other end of the table (her Alzheimer's was fairly advanced). I had to confess I hadn't, and was most embarrassed.

Getting a bit names-droppy.

One thing I didn't like of Amis' were some comments in his collected essays, in which he took to task his supposedly very good friend John Braine for what he thought was his weak writing. It was not only very condescending and backstabbing, but I think quite unjustified. As I've written elsewhere on this site, I think the two spy thrillers Braine wrote in the Seventies were far better than COLONEL SUN, and I suppose Amis never bothered to read them.

Getting a bit dull.

[ACE]

"The innate superiority of British conservatism."

Ah, yes, now it all fits!

ACE

[Lazenby880]

[quote name='ACE' date='24 August 2005 - 15:51']"The innate superiority of British conservatism."

Ah, yes, now it all fits!

Edited by Lazenby880, 24 August 2005 - 04:01 PM.

[ACE]

I know Lazenby880! I wasn't making a political point, just interested in your motivation behind the question. Amis, in his non-Bond, MacDonald-Fraser-ish guise would be very interesting to you too, nicht wahr?

My philosophical guru wrote this on the subject...

The Stranger by Billy Joel

Well we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out and show ourselves
When everyone has gone
Some are satin some are steel
Some are silk and some are leather
They're the faces of the stranger
But we love to try them on

Well, we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?

Don't be afraid to try again
Everone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it, why can't someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself

Once I used to believe
I was such a great romancer
Then I came home to a woman
That I could not recognize
When I pressed her for a reason
She refused to even answer
It was then I felt the stranger
Kick me right between the eyes

You may never understand
How the stranger is inspired
But he isn't always evil
And he isn't always wrong
Though you drown in good intentions
You will never quench the fire
You'll give in to your desire
When the stranger comes along.

Edited by ACE, 24 August 2005 - 04:06 PM.

[spynovelfan]

Malcolm Rifkind for Bond!

[ACE]

Malcolm Rifkind for Bond!

LOL! Actually Portillo would be quite good.

What about Aitken?

I jest, Lazenby880. See what we (SNF - you are guilty too!) are doing. Extrapolating two minor factoids gleaned from the little we have about you and spinning a yarn.

No offence intended.

Actually, I do want an Aitken to be the next Bond. Sorta.

Jack Davenport IS James Bond.

Serious as a heart attack.

ACE

Edited by ACE, 24 August 2005 - 04:10 PM.

[spynovelfan]

I know Lazenby880! I wasn't making a political point, just interested in your motivation behind the question. Amis, in his non-Bond, MacDonald-Fraser-ish guise would be very interesting to you too, nicht wahr?

My philosophical guru wrote this on the subject...

The Stranger by Billy Joel

Well we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out and show ourselves
When everyone has gone
Some are satin some are steel
Some are silk and some are leather
They're the faces of the stranger

But we love to try them on
Well, we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger

Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?
Don't be afraid to try again
Everone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it, why can't someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself

Once I used to believe
I was such a great romancer
Then I came home to a woman
That I could not recognize
When I pressed her for a reason
She refused to even answer
It was then I felt the stranger
Kick me right between the eyes

Well, we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?

Don't be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it why can't someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself

You may never understand
How the stranger is inspired
But he isn't always evil
And he isn't always wrong
Though you drown in good intentions
You will never quench the fire
You'll give in to your desire
When the stranger comes along.

That's a great lyric - 'reads' a lot like Paul Simon. I really must get some Billy Joel albums. I only know the hits, and Judd Nelson's line in ST ELMO'S FIRE. 'No Springsteen leaves this house! You can have all the Billy Joel records - except The Stranger.'

On Amis' politics, my theory is that he only pretended to veer to the right, and was a KGB asset all along, cf Guy Burgess.

[Lazenby880]

No offence taken chaps.

But Rifkind? Aitken? Portillo?

David Davis?

I very much would have liked to 'chat' to Mr Amis about his political conversion from the hard left to the right of centre, in particular having read in his obituary in the Guardian that he was an admirer of Mrs Thatcher in every respect but for her government's policy towards higher education.

Back on topic, a review should follow soon.

Edited by Lazenby880, 24 August 2005 - 06:27 PM.

[spynovelfan]

I've thought of a great game: we mention someone vaguely famous, and then we have to tell stories about how we met them, and connections with Bond. ACE has already kicked off with his Amis encounter, so I'll follow. I interviewed Jonathan Aitken in 2001 and told him I thought he'd make a great James Bond! Absolutely true. Not sure what I was thinking, but I'd found a reference in Hansard he'd made to John le Carr

[ACE]

Well, SNF, being famous yourself, it's hard to top your stories because they will all feature you.

Nice idea but I'd rather not do it on a forum. Which sort of defeats the object.

Nice story about Aitken. Good to see you taking your James Bondage to work. My colleagues and quite a few of my friends have no inkling I like Bond as much as I do. They just think I like films. Which I do.

BTW, I wasn't trying to namedrop Amis - I was trying to illustrate a point with reference to something other than opinion. I was surprised at the interest, perhaps because I knew how minor it was.

ACE

Edited by ACE, 24 August 2005 - 06:52 PM.

[spynovelfan]

I wasn't *really* expecting you to play along, ACE - just a hook for some more totally unnecessary name-dropping on my part. I take all my interests to work, and I do say the silliest things sometimes. But it seems to work. At the end of the interview, Aitken asked if we had any vacancies going because his daughter wanted to break into journalism and it was proving very hard! But he was a very cool customer. Used to be a journalist himself, of course - famously took LSD for a story for the Evening Standard. Should have asked him about his sister and nephew, but didn't.

And I know you weren't namedropping Amis - again, I was just being silly and pulling you into my shameful habit of namesdropping. 'Discretion may be the better part of valour' is probably something I have yet to learn. Lazenby880 is probably Jonathan Aitken's former PPA - or Aitken himself. In which case, do you remember meeting a slightly strange and intense journalist in a vicar's house in 2001, who asked you if you'd consider playing James Bond?

[Lazenby880]

[quote name='spynovelfan' date='24 August 2005 - 18:55']Lazenby880 is probably Jonathan Aitken's former PPA - or Aitken himself. In which case, do you remember meeting a slightly strange and intense journalist in a

Edited by Lazenby880, 24 August 2005 - 07:04 PM.