38 replies to this topic

[TortillaFactory]

Is Bond too PC? No, not when he can gun down Elektra in cold blood and shamelessly hand Moneypenny a blatantly phallic cigar container. Unless you want to set the films in the 50s or 60s, there are going to be some moments of clash between Bond, the ruthless man's man, and the politically correct modern world.

I agree that Bond is purely fantasy, but unless he's set in an alternative universe, he needs some grains of reality to keep us grounded. It's fun to see how he deals with modern mores; I don't see him acting cowed or embarassed, and for those who say they have, I'd like it if they'd cite specific scenes. I like how he and Monepenny occasionally switch roles, though it's clear she still has the hots for him. She's learned not to expect anything from him - which shows character growth, and keeps her from being static. Maybe it's a 21st century zeitgeist that allows this, but that doesn't make it any less realistic or interesting. And it certainly doesn't mean it should be cut from the films.

I also think it's fun to see Bond working under (HAR!) a woman. I think it helps modern audiences to understand that Bond's not sexist, really; he just doesn't respect anybody much. If he were truly disturbed by the idea of a female boss, he'd quit. And I don't think Fleming's Bond would have been unduly bothered by it (though, since Fleming's Bond existed in a time where there WERE no female bosses, it's almost impossible to determine this - we can only judge by how he treated his female colleagues, of which there were a few. From this evidence I think we can determine that Bond might trust and/or respect a female superior just as easily as he would a male one - which is to say, not very easily at all, and he wouldn't necessarily admit it, but it might happen.)

If Bond were exactly the same as he was in the 60s, he'd lose his mind. I think Brosnan and the writers did a bang-up job of creating a Bond who has a slightly smoother varnish, but underneath is exactly the same guy as before. He can put up with a certain amount of "Oh, James, you ruthless killer you, don't you think about all the awful things you're doing?", as Moore's did in Octopussy, but he can only stand so much before he grabs the girl and kisses her senseless. I think the beach scene in Goldeneye is a perfect example of this. The 60s Bond probably wouldn't have gotten as far as "it's what keeps me alive", but it's imperative that the modern Bond do so, or he'd be a very boring character indeed.

Now, that said, about Jinx. Yes, they went too far. Just like the corset jokes in period pieces, the whole "strong savvy kick-butt woman" theme has been done to death. Bond would be complemented by a woman who does OTHER things as well as he does his OWN things - if they do the same things, equally well, they'll just drive each other nuts. Remember Bond said a woman could add to him if she made sauce bearnaise well - therein lies the secret to the perfect Bond girl. She can do things he can't, or won't. Similar skills, perhaps, but different attitudes and passions. She shouldn't set out to be better than he. And yes, she ought to maintain a modicum of ladylikeness, otherwise she might as well be Felix.

Re: smoking - well, since I happen to find it rather filthy and pointless, I have to admit that I'm glad Bond doesn't seem to do it much anymore. I think it's perfectly feasible that he should quit at least one of his vices, or at least cut down a bit. Try as I might, I can't associate smoking with machismo, and I just don't think that ceasing to chain-smoke is quite the same as being castrated. Besides, smoking - like all (potentially?) addictive habits, can be harmful in a career like his. It gives you a pungent smell, it distracts you from the task at hand if you get a craving, plenty of women these days find it a huge turn-off...the list goes on and on. I'm willing to accept smoking as something that Bond did because it was common - now that it makes him stand out, I can see him dropping it easily.

So, in conclusion: if I want two-dimensional characters, I'll read comic books. I like that we get to see Bond interacting with modern people in a modern world, and pandering to them to the extent that it gets him what he wants. It makes him interesting. I like that we see little peeks of his psyche - his psyche is one reason why I love him so much. The Bond films are not too P.C. as a rule, but they should definitely be careful lest they fall further into the trap.

[bryonalston]

No, not really, but they're certainly more politically correct than the Fleming novels, which is kind of a good thing. I remember being really offended and put off during certain parts of LALD and DN because of Fleming's use of the n-word and his view of Black people in general. I didn't expect to see the creator of James Bond turn out to be such a bigot, and I especially didn't expect to see one of the chapters titled "N----r Heaven." I addition to the racism in the early novels, the Bond girls were always portrayed as being kind of worthless, sex objects who always needed Bond to save them. I think that it's good that they created Bond girls in the movies that were tough, yet feminine, brave, and didn't really NEED James Bond to save them. I think they got it perfect with Pam Bouvier and Natalya Simonova, with Tracy, Octopussy, Anya, and Melina not far behind. However, characters who are blatantly written to be a female James Bond like Jinx and Wai Lin, fail miserably. In that since, those characters are politically correct.

[TortillaFactory]

bryan -

I see what you're saying, but it's important to remember that Fleming wrote in a different time. The N-word is just that: a word. When Fleming wrote it was not considered to be the horribly offensive blight on society that it is seen as now. Fleming used it because it was in common usage, and he was writing - let's face it - pulp fiction. At that time, saying "N***** Heaven" was no more offensive than saying "the bitch is dead."

Fleming's references to black people as a group ("they" are cunning, "they" are superstitious, etc.) were widely-held beliefs until quite recently, and calling Fleming a "bigot" for running with them is a bit much. There were times when the African-American culture was still deeply enmeshed in Voodoo, and for Fleming to skirt that issue to avoid offense would be silly - even if he wrote today, I wouldn't want him to do such a thing. Obviously he wouldn't use the N-word in such a cavalier manner, but I have no problem with his portrayal of the culture, once you look past the dated language.

Regarding sexism. As a woman, I have yet to be seriously upset by Fleming's perception of my gender. You can't view his characters as some representative sample of the whole, obviously: they are damsels in distress, troubled women who often have a history of rape/abuse (Pussy Galore, Honeychile Ryder, etc.) or deep-seated emotional problems (Tracy, anyone?). I actually find his no-nonsense portrayal to be refreshing, especially in this day and age when we're supposed to pretend that everything is normal and beautiful. No, it's NOT normal and beautiful when your uncle rapes you and you become a lesbian (and yes, that happens in real life, but that's not a debate I want to have now). And yes, you ARE likely to fall prey to the charms of a man whose strong-arm tactics and ruthless manner remind you of Uncle Pervert. They say Fleming spun fantastical tales, but he was brutally honest about issues that we won't touch nowadays. And for that, I admire him.

[k13oharts]

I miss Dink.

[Gri007]

I suppose some thing PC must have happened for Bond to survive in 4 generations. And for the audience to regenerate when a new bond picture come out.

[ACE]

Cor Blimey!

I thought I was on a forum on the internet when reading this thread.
Now I realize I am in an old people's home in Little England, horrified as they peer into their Daily Expresses and Mails!

I wholeheartedly agree with everything TotillaFactory has said except Jinx.

I thought she was great and just don't get people's antipathy towards her. She was ruthless and attractive and daring just underwritten. Bond is capable of withstanding the company of such a woman. And that bedroom scene, in Bond terms, was not PC.

Bond films are not too politically correct. They have always moved with the times and that's why they fascinate and endure and retain cultural resonance (albeit inadvertantly).

Get over it!

ACE

Edited by ACE, 02 August 2005 - 01:35 AM.

[bryonalston]

I think that if the Bond films were too politically correct, then Xenia Onatopp wouldn't have existed, or she would have been toned down a lot. However, they didn't show Bond chopping her to the back of her head. Also, on the GE commentary, they mentioned that they had to show those policemen crawling out of the car that had just been crushed by Bond's tank. I think that is an example where the Bond films can be to PC (who would have thought twice about those guys surviving anyways?)

[ACE]

Yes, look at what Fleming originally had in mind.

Go to

http://www.ohmss.ohm....com/ohmss.html

Then go to OHMSS pages
Then go to Trivia of Doubtful Veracity

Look at the draft book covers and titles at the bottom of the page.

Shocking, positively shocking

Drummond Grieve is a genius. With a very cool name!

ACE

Edited by ACE, 02 August 2005 - 08:32 AM.

[Lazenby880]

They stand him up, call him names and all have a giggle whilst he looks like he's trying to down play embarasment that these people even have jobs near him. Moneypenny and M are classic examples of this. What annoying dykes. Same goes for that silly Jinx slapper. Go back to the street corner you came from honey, you're just not a spy.

Love it. And yes, I'm sick of the whole 'This is the first time the Bond girl is the equal of Bond' however clearly untalented said 'spies' are. Have the Bond pictures become too politically correct? In this respect the answer would undoubtedly have to be a resounding yes. This is a James Bond movie, and the obligatory 'match-up' of a just-as-resourceful,-able-and-generally-hard-as-nails-as-James-Bond female with the title character is becoming wearisome and is quite patently a result of modern day feminist pressure.

With regards to Drummond Grieve's website it is indeed pretty tip-top:

Bond Screws 8 Birds in This One, Lads

Bond's New Bride Gets a Bullet in the Head on the Last Page

And my favourite satirical look at Mr Fleming's original titles:

Cuneo wisely altered the shockingly specific racist overtone of the title of Fleming's next offering,

All Black-skinned People are Drug Pushers, Pimps, Rapists and Corruptors of Civilised White Society

to reflect a more shockingly generalised racist overtone:

The Larger Majority of Black-skinned People are Drug Pushers, Pimps, Rapists and Corruptors of Civilised White Society

Very funny.

Edited by Lazenby880, 02 August 2005 - 07:34 PM.