17 replies to this topic

[freemo]

Loomis once entertained the notion that the only "real" Bond films were the ones starring Sean Connery. I'd like to extend that slightly and suggest that the only "real" Bond films are the 9 co-produced by Harry Saltzman. I'm not saying I really believe it, a tad ludicrous really, but I'm just pondering the idea for a moment.

Just from what I've seen on the documentarys, heard on the commentaries, and read in books, (which admittily is probably not enough to go on) it seems that Saltzman was the innovator, the ideas man. And it really is Bond films that he was involved in that were innovative, revolutionary. The bulk of the famous scenes, the ones that the man on the street knows of, the ones parodied in Austin Powers, etc, are the ones from the first nine.

I see a clear different between the films with Saltzman and films without him. That showmanship, that panahce, is missing from The Spy Who Loved Me onwards. I loved these latter films too, but in a way they are just rehashes or variations on a theme. They don't really offer anything knew the way that first nine did. "James Bond" film becomes a genre in itself. Also from The Spy Who Loved Me onwards it's kind of hit and miss, where as with Saltzman on board we had eight consecutive gems and then one that while rather silly is not without merit.

I'm not saying that Saltzman was better than Broccoli. If you could only have one of them then I'd go with Broccoli, and yes, I know there are other possible factors, like running out of Fleming books and other changes in the crew, but I think that Saltzmans contribution to the series has been underestimated, and I dare say that the Bond films he was involved in are the "real" Bond films.

[Righty007]

I like Cubby better. From what I understood from the DVD documentaries Saltzman had some great ideas but most of them were stupid. Do "elephant shoes" ring a bell?

[TheSaint]

I'm surprised there hasn't been a bio written on him yet.

[Qwerty]

My vote goes to Cubby for the one I like better, but Saltzman played an integral part. Cubby could make the films flow and the actors happy, Harry could come up with some fantastic idea, although usually with some bad ones.

I'm fond of the documentary they did for him on the From Russia With Love DVD.

[freemo]

I like Cubby better. From what I understood from the DVD documentaries Saltzman had some great ideas but most of them were stupid. Do "elephant shoes" ring a bell?

Well if I had to choose one to be sole producer I'd choose Broccoli to. A solo Saltzman Bond film would have been horrendous. You need someone to seperate the bad ideas from the good. But Saltzman really did bring something to the series, something that I like.

[Loomis]

Why do I get the impression (from things like the documentaries on the Bond DVDs) that the Broccoli family and Eon Productions nowadays seriously downplay Saltzman's contribution to the series, almost to the point of suggesting that "Cubby" was singlehandedly responsible for that wild, woolly and wonderful thing called "the Bond legacy"?

One of the docs (can't remember which one - may be on THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN) even seems to imply that Saltzman was an incompetent whom Cubby, out of the kindness of his heart, "carried" for many years.

[Qwerty]

Well I think it might be down to the fact that Cubby was with the films as much as he could be, so naturally they'd point out his role with them a bit more. And also since his family has taken over continuing the roles.

I wouldn't say they downsized Harry, his documentary does a pretty good job. They seemed to label him as the "spiky" director who came up with some very good ideas.

[quiller]

Loomis once entertained the notion that the only "real" Bond films were the ones starring Sean Connery. I'd like to extend that slightly and suggest that the only "real" Bond films are the 9 co-produced by Harry Saltzman. I'm not saying I really believe it, a tad ludicrous really, but I'm just pondering the idea for a moment.

Just from what I've seen on the documentarys, heard on the commentaries, and read in books, (which admittily is probably not enough to go on) it seems that Saltzman was the innovator, the ideas man. And it really is Bond films that he was involved in that were innovative, revolutionary. The bulk of the famous scenes, the ones that the man on the street knows of, the ones parodied in Austin Powers, etc, are the ones from the first nine.

I see a clear different between the films with Saltzman and films without him. That showmanship, that panahce, is missing from The Spy Who Loved Me onwards. I loved these latter films too, but in a way they are just rehashes or variations on a theme. They don't really offer anything knew the way that first nine did. "James Bond" film becomes a genre in itself. Also from The Spy Who Loved Me onwards it's kind of hit and miss, where as with Saltzman on board we had eight consecutive gems and then one that while rather silly is not without merit.

I'm not saying that Saltzman was better than Broccoli. If you could only have one of them then I'd go with Broccoli, and yes, I know there are other possible factors, like running out of Fleming books and other changes in the crew, but I think that Saltzmans contribution to the series has been underestimated, and I dare say that the Bond films he was involved in are the "real" Bond films.

much as i prefair connery to more( sorry roger old boy) i have to say that tswlm is one of the great bonds. it''s the great more bond. and it at least comes close to equalling gf in the showmanship stakes.

[Qwerty]

I'm glad though that he took The Spy Who Loved Me pretty much on his own.

[trs007]

As we learned at the John Barry Tribute, from Barry himself: Saltzman did not like the Goldfinger song, so much so, that he was going to change it, save for the facts that the film was 3 weeks from release and much of the score encompasses the theme.

Weeks later, after the song was a #1 success, and Barry ran into Saltzman at a London eatery, all Harry could muster was, "Thanks, John."

[Qwerty]

I think it was Saltzman too that intensely disliked Diamonds Are Forever by Shirley Bassey. (Correct me if I'm wrong ?)

So much that, from what some Bond sites and information has said that it drove Barry away for a while.

[Turn]

I think Cubby and Harry really complimented each other. You had Harry, the showman who had the big ideas and a lot of balls in the air at the same time with other projects, then you had Cubby, who was more down-to-earth and focused on the Bonds and more practical.

True, Harry was responsible for some strange things, but think about this: he and Cubby alternated main producing chores while the other took a lesser role after YOLT. Harry's first one turned out to be OHMSS. And I also believe he was the driving force behind getting Roger Moore his license to kill.

[Qwerty]

Yes, and while Harry Saltzman took over Live And Let Die, and The Man With The Golden Gun was more of Cubby's picture, wasn't it Diamonds Are Forever that was Cubby's also?

I never understood why they took films reigns on their own, but I suppose of the growing animosity between them.

[Turn]

I'd like to read the Cubby bio to find out more about their relationship. No wonder they didn't want Connery as a partner. They'd be about as dysfunctional a family as the people on Arrested Development.

[freemo]

Yes, and while Harry Saltzman took over Live And Let Die, and The Man With The Golden Gun was more of Cubby's picture, wasn't it Diamonds Are Forever that was Cubby's also?

That's my understanding. Makes sense when you watch the "making of" documentaries too. In the LALD one everybody interviewed talks about Saltzman, likewise DAF and Broccoli.

If this was indeed the case...

HS
On Her Majesty's Secret Service
Live and Let Die

ARB
Diamonds Are Forever
The Man With the Golden Gun

Most people (and that doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong) would probably consider Saltzman's list a wee bit more impressive.

[Blofeld's Cat]

One of the docs (can't remember which one - may be on THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN) even seems to imply that Saltzman was an incompetent whom Cubby, out of the kindness of his heart, "carried" for many years.

In that docco Tom Mankiewicz tells of a time he and Harry went scouting locations and came across elephants (wearing shoes) working the teak forests in Chiang Mai and Harry suddenly decides that they should get a heap of these shoes for the elephant stampede. Tom gave the impression, to me at least, that poor Harry was going senile.

[Qwerty]

Most people (and that doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong) would probably consider Saltzman's list a wee bit more impressive.

Yes, while Harry might have the glittering On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, all four films seem to be rather good. I wonder what these four films would have turned out if both directors equally worked on all of them.

[BondNumber7]

the only "real" Bond films are the 9 co-produced by Harry Saltzman. It seems that Saltzman was the innovator, the ideas man. And it really is Bond films that he was involved in that were innovative, revolutionary. The bulk of the famous scenes, the ones that the man on the street knows of, the ones parodied in Austin Powers, etc, are the ones from the first nine.

The series was innovative in the 1960s and early seventies because it was still new and fresh. By the time Broccoli took over it was getting older and more tiresome, and if it doesn't seem innovative anymore that is obviously because the series has been going on for over 40 years. Sometimes I feel they should just end it. Anyway Luke, I don't think Broccoli and his kids are the problem, it's really time.