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#301 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 12:26 PM

Curious. I'm pretty sure that the Fleming Bond books also get a brief mention in "The Human Factor" (although that obviously doesn't automatically imply approval).

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In WAYS OF ESCAPE, Greene wrote of the novel:

"My ambition after the war was to write a novel of espionage free from the conventional violence, which has not, in spite of James Bond, been a feature of the British Secret Service."

So it's a deliberate counter to Bond. In one of the early scenes, Davis complains to Castle that they never have anything interesting to do, and are never given any fancy gadgets to play with. He says something like 'James Bond wouldn't put up with this' but I'll have to look up the precise quote. I think it's affectionate, though of course it makes the point above.

I think there are several other subtle references to Bond in the novel. Colonel Daintry is a kind of Bond bachelor. He lives in a lonely two-roomed flat in St James' and struggles to prepare a meal for himself. Doctor Percival seems a riff on Sir James Molony, only he's much more unpleasant, and ditto Sir John Hargreaves, the murderous head of SIS.

One of the problems with the novel is that it took ten years for Greene to finish it. By the time it was finally published in 1978, there had been dozens of writers who had written novels of espionage free from the conventional violence. I like the novel a lot, but it's a little like reading a parody of Greene: you kind of know what's coming. Len Deighton's 1967 novel AN EXPENSIVE WAY TO DIE is, in some ways, more Human Factorish than THE HUMAN FACTOR, if you see what I mean. In Harold Pinter's 1966 script for THE QUILLER MEMORANDUM, there's a scene in which two senior British intelligence officers casually discuss the murder of an agent in Berlin over lunch:

'Interior. London club. Day.

A WAITER is serving potatoes to two gentlemen.

RUSHINGTON. Thanks. That's... quite sufficient, thank you.

The WAITER nods and goes.

GIBBS. Salt?

RUSHINGTON. Oh, thanks.

They salt their food and begin to eat.

GIBBS. What exactly is he doing now?

RUSHINGTON. He's on leave, actually. On vacation.

GIBBS. Ah.

They eat.

Well, perhaps someone might get in touch with him.

RUSHINGTON. Oh , yes, certainly. No difficulty about that.

GIBBS. Ask him if he'd mind popping over to Berlin.

RUSHINGTON. Mmmmm. I think so.

GIBBS. Good.

They eat.

Shame about K.L.J.

RUSHINGTON. Mmmmm.

GIBBS. How was he killed?

RUSHINGTON. Shot.

GIBBS. What gun?

RUSHINGTON. Long shot in the spine, actually. Nine point three. Same as Metzler.

GIBBS. Oh, really?

They eat.

How's your lunch?

RUSHINGTON. Rather good.

GIBBS. What is it?

RUSHINGTON. Pheasant.

GIBBS. Ah. Yes, that should be rather good. Is it?

RUSHINGTON. It is rather, yes.'

My copy of THE HUMAN FACTOR is at home, but anyone who's read it will remember that there are several scenes very similar to the above, in which Percival and Hargreaves talk about trout. Might track it down. Anyway, my point is that a lot of people were effectively writing the book a decade before Greene published it.

#302 Hitch

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 02:43 PM

Reminds me of one of my favourite lines from the film version of The Ipcress File (I've mentioned this before, but I've got a gun pointed at your stomach, so yah-boo sucks to all of you).

Harry Palmer's superiors, Major Dalby and Colonel Ross, share a pot of tea and have a prickly conversation, at the end of which Dalby gives a quick nod and says, "Very good tea." :tup:

SNF, when are you going to write the definitive history of the spy thriller?

I seem to remember one of Greene's "entertainments", Stamboul Express (I hope I've got the title correct), was fun until what seemed like a thin streak of anti-semitism began to surface. I read it years ago, so perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me. The Human Factor is bleak, and the ending is a slap in the face; good, cold work from the Greenemeister. Doctor Fischer of Geneva was forgettable bar a description of an explosion that reminded me of Casino Royale.

Did William Golding ever write a spy thriller? I would have liked to see the result. Here are the memorable last lines of The Paper Men. Wilfrid Barclay, a rich, curmudgeonly best-selling author, has led his eager young biographer by the nose until the poor man can take no more:

Rick is a hundred yards away across the river, flitting from tree to tree like playing Indians. I shall have an audience for my ritual. Now he is leaning against a tree and is peering at me through some instrument or other. How the devil did Rick L. Tucker manage to get hold of a gu

#303 Qwerty

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 02:49 PM

1) Commuter book: Sabre-Tooth by Peter O'Donnell - my first ever Modesty Blaise book!

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What do you think of that, ACE? Based on the Bond books and Titan books I've bought off Amazon, I keep getting the Blaise books as recommendations.

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I'll let you know when I have finished it.
My commuter books live in my briefcase and I have been working from home for the last few days.
Will gobble it up and let you know.

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Sounds good. Cheers.

#304 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 03:05 PM

Reminds me of one of my favourite lines from the film version of The Ipcress File (I've mentioned this before, but I've got a gun pointed at your stomach, so yah-boo sucks to all of you).

Harry Palmer's superiors, Major Dalby and Colonel Ross, share a pot of tea and have a prickly conversation, at the end of which Dalby gives a quick nod and says, "Very good tea." :D

SNF, when are you going to write the definitive history of the spy thriller?

I seem to remember one of Greene's "entertainments", Stamboul Express (I hope I've got the title correct), was fun until what seemed like a thin streak of anti-semitism began to surface. I read it years ago, so perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me. The Human Factor is bleak, and the ending is a slap in the face; good, cold work from the Greenemeister. Doctor Fischer of Geneva was forgettable bar a description of an explosion that reminded me of Casino Royale.

Did William Golding ever write a spy thriller? I would have liked to see the result. Here are the memorable last lines of The Paper Men. Wilfrid Barclay, a rich, curmudgeonly best-selling author, has led his eager young biographer by the nose until the poor man can take no more:

Rick is a hundred yards away across the river, flitting from tree to tree like playing Indians. I shall have an audience for my ritual. Now he is leaning against a tree and is peering at me through some instrument or other. How the devil did Rick L. Tucker manage to get hold of a gu

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Yes, both the book and film of IPCRESS have some Greene-ish stuff. I think Deighton's novels immediately after the 'Palmer' series and before the Samson series are the ones that have it the most effectively, though.

Yes, Stamboul Train's a bit uncomfortable - Myatt and his grey suede shoes. Here's a letter to the New York Review of Books on this very point:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1800

Of course, there are similar 'problems' with Fleming's work. But so much of this was common currency at the time, it's almost a surprise when you find a writer who works against it - as in EM Forster's marvellous essay Jew-Consciousness, written in 1939:

'Jew-consciousness is in the air, and it remains to be seen how far it will succeed in poisoning it...'

That essay was included in the collection Two Cheers For Democracy, in which Forster also wrote:

'If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.'

I think that sentence is the basis for The Human Factor - and a lot of other spy fiction. :D This book is also on-topic, as I've recently been dipping into it. Forster is refreshingly liberal and humane. I think he's even described as a humane liberalist on the back, in fact. :tup:

I'm afraid the only Golding I've read is Lord Of The Flies, which seems to have been adapted into a TV show at the moment. :D

#305 Hitch

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 03:40 PM

Thanks for the link, SNF. Bigotry is in the eye of the beholder, though I do remember feeling increasingly uncomfortable as the book went on. Must have been my cushion. :D

Not sure about the Golding TV reference - you've lost me there. I strongly recommend his To the Ends of the Earth trilogy. The first volume is complete in itself and is a real page-turner.

I hate to sully this esteemed thread with mention of my truly crappy fanfic, but I managed to cram the title of Forster's book into the mouth of one of my characters. Serendipity or just plain bad luck? :tup:

#306 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 03:42 PM

Was it Where Angels Fear To Tread, or Howard's End? :tup:

I will try to find the time to read it, Hitch - I really like your writing style.

And I was referring to Lost. :D

#307 Skudor

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 03:49 PM

Knife of Dreams by Robert Jordan. Fantasy. Book eleven of twelve (final yet to be written, so we'll see about that...). This thing has been going on for years, eleven 800+ page novels. Sometimes the story doesn't seem to move an inch, and yet I can't help getting the next one.. I just want to finish the job. The first 3-4 books in the series are highly recommended though (Eye of the World onwards).

#308 Hitch

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 03:53 PM

SNF - as I said, you lost me. :tup: And I think it was my Passage to India that caused the discomfort.

#309 james st.john smythe

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 07:05 PM

aggressor, andy mcnab

#310 Johnboy007

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 08:03 PM

Farewell, My Lovely - Raymond Chandler
Epitaph for a Spy - Eric Ambler
Walden - Henry David Thoreau

#311 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 08:28 PM

In one of the early scenes, Davis complains to Castle that they never have anything interesting to do, and are never given any fancy gadgets to play with. He says something like 'James Bond wouldn't put up with this' but I'll have to look up the precise quote...

In Harold Pinter's 1966 script for THE QUILLER MEMORANDUM, there's a scene in which two senior British intelligence officers casually discuss the murder of an agent in Berlin over lunch:

'Interior. London club. Day.

A WAITER is serving potatoes to two gentlemen.

RUSHINGTON. Thanks. That's... quite sufficient, thank you.

The WAITER nods and goes.

GIBBS. Salt?

RUSHINGTON. Oh, thanks.

They salt their food and begin to eat.

GIBBS. What exactly is he doing now?

RUSHINGTON. He's on leave, actually. On vacation.

GIBBS. Ah.

They eat.

Well, perhaps someone might get in touch with him.

RUSHINGTON. Oh , yes, certainly. No difficulty about that.

GIBBS. Ask him if he'd mind popping over to Berlin.

RUSHINGTON. Mmmmm. I think so.

GIBBS. Good.

They eat.

Shame about K.L.J.

RUSHINGTON. Mmmmm.

GIBBS. How was he killed?

RUSHINGTON. Shot.

GIBBS. What gun?

RUSHINGTON. Long shot in the spine, actually. Nine point three. Same as Metzler.

GIBBS. Oh, really?

They eat.

How's your lunch?

RUSHINGTON. Rather good.

GIBBS. What is it?

RUSHINGTON. Pheasant.

GIBBS. Ah. Yes, that should be rather good. Is it?

RUSHINGTON. It is rather, yes.'

My copy of THE HUMAN FACTOR is at home, but anyone who's read it will remember that there are several scenes very similar to the above, in which Percival and Hargreaves talk about trout. Might track it down. Anyway, my point is that a lot of people were effectively writing the book a decade before Greene published it.

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Just to get this off my chest, and then we can go back to what everyone's reading. :D Here are the relevant quotes from THE HUMAN FACTOR:

'"You know, Castle, when I joined this outfit, I was a romantic. I thought of atom secrets. They only took me on because I was a good mathematician, and my physics were not too bad, either."

"Atom secrets belong to Section 8."

"I thought I'd at least learn some interesting gadgets, like using secret ink. I'm sure you know all about secret ink."

"I did once - even to the use of bird :tup:. I had a course in it before they sent me on a mission at the end of the war. They gave me a handsome little wooden box, full of bottles like one of those chemistry cabinets for children. And an electric kettle - with a supply of knitting needles."

"What on earth for?"

"For opening letters."

"And did you ever? Open one, I mean?"

"No, though I did once try..."

"What about a Luger? I suppose you had a Luger. Or an explosive fountain-pen?"

"No. We've never been very James Bond minded here. I wasn't allowed to carry a gun, and my only car was a second-hand Morris Minor."

"We might at least have been given a Luger between us. It's the age of terrorism..."'

Later on the same page, Davis complains that 'James Bond would have had Cynthia [the secretary] a long while ago.' The scene continues, and Bond gets a few more mentions. 'I wasn't talking about marriage. Bond never had to marry' and so on.

The conversations between Hargreaves and Percival take place from Part Two on. They alternate between the Reform Club and the Travellers - Percival is a member of the former:

'"If I had a conscience,' Doctor Percival said, 'I would not remain a member here. I'm a member because of the food - and the smoked trout too, if you forgive me, John - is the best in London.'

'I like the food at the Travellers just as much,' Hargreaves said."

Two pages later, while they are still eating their lunch, Percival proposes they poison Davis with salted peanuts.

#312 Lazenby880

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 10:54 PM

Epitaph for a Spy - Eric Ambler

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Hope you enjoy that one, along with Cause For Alarm and A Coffin For Dimitrios it represents the pinnacle of Ambler's work. Farewell, My Lovely is also a cracking read, though of Chandler's books my favourite remains The Big Sleep.

Personally I am getting started on Len Deighton's Funeral In Berlin.

#313 Scrambled Eggs

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 12:47 AM

Ian McEwan - Enduring Love.
Haven't seen the film, but it doesn't strike me as an obviously filmable book. So much of it goes on in the head of the protagonist.
Not a huge McEwan fan but "The Innocent" is a cracking Cold War spy novel.

#314 Qwerty

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 03:59 AM

Farewell, My Lovely - Raymond Chandler
Epitaph for a Spy - Eric Ambler
Walden - Henry David Thoreau

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Did you finish "The Big Sleep", John?

#315 Pam Bouvier

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 05:28 AM

1) Commuter book: Sabre-Tooth by Peter O'Donnell - my first ever Modesty Blaise book!
ACE

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How was Sabre-Tooth? I've heard alot about Modesty Blaise, but I haven't read any the stories yet.

#316 Matt O'S oo4

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 08:10 AM

It has been quite a while, but I read a trilogy of books
called The Blue Adept.

A god mixture of fantasy and science fiction.

There was a subsequent trilogy written which I read also,

but, I didn't get into them as well as the first trilogy.

Ah, well.

Good fun.

004

#317 spynovelfan

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 09:01 AM

Epitaph for a Spy - Eric Ambler

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Hope you enjoy that one, along with Cause For Alarm and A Coffin For Dimitrios it represents the pinnacle of Ambler's work. Farewell, My Lovely is also a cracking read, though of Chandler's books my favourite remains The Big Sleep.

Personally I am getting started on Len Deighton's Funeral In Berlin.

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Ambler was a superb thriller writer, and a bigger influence on Ian Fleming than people generally acknowledge. But that's for another time. :tup: Ambler was an even bigger influence on Len Deighton - the character of Johnny Vulcan in FUNERAL IN BERLIN is very Ambleresque.

And Scrambled Eggs, I agree with you: THE INNOCENT is a cracking Cold War spy thriller. The scene with the walk through the streets with the corpse is a landmark in the genre - like TORN CURTAIN, it shows you in agonising detail just how hard it is to kill someone and get away with it!

#318 Joyce Carrington

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 09:11 AM

'Indelible' by Karin Slaughter. I love her work. :tup:

#319 MarcAngeDraco

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 09:52 AM

I've started "A Perfect Spy" -LeCarre but I'm having a hard time getting into it so far...

#320 spynovelfan

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 09:54 AM

I've started "A Perfect Spy" -LeCarre but I'm having a hard time getting into it so far...

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Yeah, it's a slow start - but I recommend keeping at it. One of le Carr

#321 Major Bloodnok

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 01:59 PM

[quote name='spynovelfan' date='6 December 2005 - 04:54'][quote name='MarcAngeDraco' date='6 December 2005 - 09:52']I've started "A Perfect Spy" -LeCarre but I'm having a hard time getting into it so far...

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[/quote]

Yeah, it's a slow start - but I recommend keeping at it. One of le Carr

#322 Lazenby880

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 06:54 PM

Ambler was a superb thriller writer, and a bigger influence on Ian Fleming than people generally acknowledge. But that's for another time. :tup: Ambler was an even bigger influence on Len Deighton - the character of Johnny Vulcan in FUNERAL IN BERLIN is very Ambleresque.

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Indeed. I learned from someone else that Fleming read A Coffin For Dimitrios while researching From Russia with Love in Istanbul (which makes sense given his mention of the book), and reading Ambler it is clear from where Fleming took much of his inspiration. But as you say, another time.

My appetite for Funeral In Berlin has been whetted with this promise of an Ambleresque character, very interesting indeed. It is just frustrating that despite being one of the United Kingdom's greatest thriller writers Mr Ambler seems to be more appreciated in the United States (where his books are far more readily available) than in his home country. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Mr Ambler is underrated across the board.

And Qwerty, what did you think of The Big Sleep?

Edited by Lazenby880, 06 December 2005 - 11:08 PM.


#323 Qwerty

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 06:57 PM

And Qwerty, what did you think of The Big Sleep?

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I found it to be quite enjoyable. It's been a while since I last read it (or any book by Chandler for that matter). While slightly slower in its pace, I think literary Bond fans would enjoy this book and the following ones by Chandler - Philip Marlowe is a great character.

Recommended.

#324 Johnboy007

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 07:04 PM

Farewell, My Lovely - Raymond Chandler
Epitaph for a Spy - Eric Ambler
Walden - Henry David Thoreau

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Did you finish "The Big Sleep", John?

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Yes I did, Sunday night. Everything cleared up as I went along, but I found the last scene a little predictable. Filled with bizarre characters, but the story and writing (especially the loads of dry humor!) were very satisfying. :tup:

#325 Lazenby880

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 07:21 PM

Yes I did, Sunday night.  Everything cleared up as I went along, but I found the last scene a little predictable.  Filled with bizarre characters, but the story and writing (especially the loads of dry humor!) were very satisfying.  :tup:

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Quite; the dry humour Chandler infuses his novels with make them most enjoyable reading, as well as the hard-boiled nature of his characters and plots.

Hope you enjoy Epitaph For A Spy and please do post your thoughts on it, I'd be most interested to read what others think of Ambler. :D

#326 Qwerty

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 07:22 PM

Farewell, My Lovely - Raymond Chandler
Epitaph for a Spy - Eric Ambler
Walden - Henry David Thoreau

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Did you finish "The Big Sleep", John?

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Yes I did, Sunday night. Everything cleared up as I went along, but I found the last scene a little predictable. Filled with bizarre characters, but the story and writing (especially the loads of dry humor!) were very satisfying. :D

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:tup:

Hope you enjoy Farewell, My Lovely.

#327 Gri007

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 06:23 PM

I am reading the posts on CBN :tup:

seriously, I am reading Casino Royale (again!)

#328 TortillaFactory

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 07:00 PM

Diary by Chuck Palahniuk kept me up until 4:30 this morning, then I had to sleep with all the lights on. God is he good. If Ch. 9 of BMB is a little weird, I'll have him to blame. It's a style that gets under your skin. Who else can start a novel with a woman calling to complain that her linen closet is missing?

As usual, every plot Palahniuk touches turns to gold. Can't recommend it enough.

#329 Quartermaster007

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 07:45 PM

Thunderball.

Hopefully will finish in time to read On Her Majesty’s Secret Service or You Only Live Twice for BLBC.

#330 Scottlee

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 08:09 PM

Reading Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire right now. I'm working my way through the series, and this is easily the best one so far. Good books.