117 replies to this topic

[Sensualist]

didn't Die Another Day, TWINE and Tomorrow Never Dies (Frankfurt hotel room scene, etc) have MORE bits'n pieces of FlemingBond than YOLT?

Not a view I'd subscribe to myself, but if you believe they did, does that have more to do with the casting of Brosnan or the producers and their choice of writer/director?

As Pierce admited himself, he tends to just go with the flow.

Well, a lot of CBn-ers would state that the first third of Die Another Day was more Flemingesque than BigCaperScreenBond-esque.

Sensualist would share that view.

And, to answer your question, Admiral, it likely has to do with the 'tone' Eon wanted the writers to work with coupled with Brosnan's stated desire to have more character and story and less explosions/CGI.

Edited by Sensualist, 20 March 2004 - 10:12 PM.

[Sensualist]

In fact, didn't Die Another Day, TWINE and Tomorrow Never Dies (Frankfurt hotel room scene, etc) have MORE bits'n pieces of FlemingBond than YOLT?

Don't think so.

Fleming's Bond didn't blub and get all clingy with women, mithering a load of sentimental balderdash about "getting too close".

Likewise, I don't think YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is a Fleming-free zone. Far from it, in fact.

Sensualist's view is to the contrary.

Fleming's Bond showed 'weakness' vis-a-vis women. Beside's Brosnan's Bond NEVER said anything about "getting too close". He did, however, say "I never miss" after blowing away his ex-lover into oblivion!*

YOLT was further removed from Fleming than Die Another Day. On a minute-to-minute basis Die Another Day, HANDS down, has more realistic elements to it than YOLT.

Sensualist loves 'em both. They are both fine little gems. Wonderful movies brimming with tremendous entertainment. And, full value for money.



*Hat's off to Eon and to Brosnan for pulling of a "feather-in-the-cap-for-the-cinematic-OO7" moment like that. That old Fleming would never have had he guts to pen such a scenario.

Fleming's dead. FlemingBond is dead. Long live EonBond!!!!

Edited by Sensualist, 20 March 2004 - 11:18 PM.

[SnakeEyes]

To me, it always seemed like an attempt at Flemingesque, rather than actual...well Fleming.

Sorta like they put some edgy moments in (all acted cheesily and spoilt I might add) to hope people would forget about the rest of the film or something.

YOLT might not be Fleming either, but then I dislike that film alot too.

[Sensualist]

The point, Snakeyes, was to illustrate that FlemingBond and ScreenBond parted company as far back as 1966 when dear old children's fantasy writer Roald Dahl did the screen play for the fifth James Bond movie.

The point, if you cared to "get" it, was to illustrate that the lack of FlemingBond in the films is not a 1995-2002 phenomenon.

It's irrelevant that you like or "dislike" the film. That wasn't the point.

[Loomis]

Brosnan's Bond NEVER said anything about "getting too close".

I suggest you re-watch TOMORROW NEVER DIES, Sensualist. Paris asks Bond: "Did I get too close?" Brosnan, looking like a blubby and shy adolescent, whispers: "Yes." Very moving. But not very Fleming.

I also suggest you re-read your Fleming if you think "YOLT was further removed from Fleming than Die Another Day." YOLT contains more Fleming characters and creations than DAD (Henderson, Kissy Suzuki, Blofeld, SPECTRE - apart from Bond, in DAD there's just M and Moneypenny [both of whom bear virtually no resemblance to Fleming's M and Moneypenny]), as well as a basic Fleming plot (007 goes to Japan and finds that the mastermind behind various terrible goings-on is none other than Blofeld), and, crucially, Fleming elements like snobbery, gastronomy, Englishness, kinkiness, a delight in exotic travel.... YOLT, the film, is a veritable hotbed of Fleming - DAD isn't.

Oh, and "realistic elements" (whether on a "minute-to-minute basis" or not) do not, as you seem to imply, equal "Fleming elements". In fact, Fleming is mostly not realistic at all - he's a writer of whacked-out, overblown escapist fantasies for adults with rather nasty senses of humour.

[Sensualist]

Brosnan's Bond NEVER said anything about "getting too close".

I suggest you re-watch TOMORROW NEVER DIES, Sensualist. Paris asks Bond: "Did I get too close?" Brosnan (replies): "Yes."

Again, Brosnan's Bond NEVER did say anything about "getting too close". Perhaps you ought to have the subtitles going, Loomie!

[Sensualist]

oops

Edited by Sensualist, 20 March 2004 - 11:35 PM.

[Sensualist]

YOLT, the film, is a veritable hotbed of Fleming - DAD isn't.

Nope. YOLT was further removed from Fleming than Die Another Day.

But that's ok. As mentioned before, Sensualist ADORES 'em both! Wonderfully fantastic Bondian entertainment!

A hell of a lot better than, um, er, License To Kill.

[SnakeEyes]

I wasn't posting for your 'point', I was just digging a DAD.

Hahaha, well, you go and enjoy your films, whilst I enjoy my books.

[Sensualist]

Hahaha, well, you go and enjoy your films, whilst I enjoy my books.

Sensualist loves the books too. Some more than others:

Live And Let Die
From Russia With Love
Thunderball
On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and
You Only Live Twice

are Sensualist's five favourite titles of all time...by any author!

Octopussy
The Hildebrand Rarity, and
Quantum Of Solace

are unforgetable short stories.

[SnakeEyes]

No 'extention' novels?

I don't like them either.

[1q2w3e4r]

YOLT, the film, is a veritable hotbed of Fleming - DAD isn't.

Nope. YOLT was further removed from Fleming than Die Another Day.

But that's ok. As mentioned before, Sensualist ADORES 'em both! Wonderfully fantastic Bondian entertainment!

A hell of a lot better than, um, er, License To Kill.

is it needed to reply to post after post with a new one instead of doing them all in one! Post count isn't everything

I can't really see how DAD is more in tune with Fleming than YOLT. I think some good points were made for YOLT which unlike DAD isn't a ripoff of MR. (probably due to it being filmed first!)

Though essentially, DAD is a ripoff of Moonraker... Which is a ripoff of TSWLM... Which is a ripoff (remake) of YOLT.

Interesting.

[Loomis]

YOLT was further removed from Fleming than Die Another Day.

Justify that statement.

[Sensualist]

YOLT was further removed from Fleming than Die Another Day.

Justify that statement.

Sensualist mentioned that on a "minute-by-minute" basis Die Another Day is closer to Fleming than You Only Live Twice.

The premise of YOLT would have you believe that China had a HUGELY superior space capability (to launch a rocket, capture an orbiting capsule in space, and then safely re-enter the atmosphere, fully intact no less) than the US or USSR at the time...and that the completion of an utterly sophisticated and avant garde 'enemy' rocket base in 'ally' territory, i.e. Japan could go completely undetected.

That premise is completely fantastical...far from the type of stories Fleming was writing (guano (LOL), anyone?...GUANO...i.e. bird ...LOL) which ALL seemed 'plausable'.

(Needless to say it was PURE Eon Bond...fun, outrageous, terrific.)

That premise, written by children's fantasy story teller, Roald Dahl, remains the most implausable, non-Flemingesque movie treatment in the history of the series in relation to its time (1966/67). Even Moonraker remains MORE PLAUSABLE in relation to 1979.

Meanwhile, right up to the exact point where Gustav Graves pulls the rip-chord to 'chute into Buckingham to receive his Knighthood, Die Another Day remains completely plausable with loads of Fleming elements ("British assassin", Bond captured and brutally tortured (Casino Royale, Dr. No (the book)), mis-trust by M/Bond separated by bullet-proof glass from M (TMWTGG book)...

...Later, the main villian, with identity changed (remember HUGO VON DRASCHER), deceives England into thinking that his creation is for good while the opposite is the case (all elements from Moonraker (the book))...

Sensualist feels the case has been made. Justified, if you will.


BTW...

Even Connery admitted that YOLT, complete with it's heavy reliance on gadgetry (little nellie, etc.) and out-of-this world plot, had broken the mould of character- and story-oriented Bond scripts...and that it no was longer about the man...but the man merely pushing buttons, being a mere cog in the machine.

Edited by Sensualist, 21 March 2004 - 09:10 PM.

[Loomis]

The premise of YOLT would have you believe that China had a superior space capability (to launch a rocket, capture an orbiting capsule in space, and then safely re-enter the atmosphere, fully intact no less) than the US or USSR at the time...

Time to re-watch YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, I think, Sen. China has no role in the story whatsoever. That country is not even mentioned.

...and that the completion of an enemy rocket base in an ally of the US, i.e. Japan could go completely undetected.

No more implausible than, say, a plot by an industrialist who's fawned over by the British establishment to launch an atomic weapon on London from the Kent coast; or a scheme to knock off Fort Knox.

That premise is completely fantastical...far from the type of stories Fleming was writing (guano (LOL), anyone?...GUANO...i.e. bird ...LOL)

Er, "Dr No" isn't about guano, you know. It's about a plot to topple rockets. Ooh, we're entering YOLT territory here, folks.

That premise, written by children's fantasy story teller, Roald Dahl, remains the most implausable non-Flemingesque movie treatment in the history of the series in relation to its time.

Dahl was more than a "children's fantasy story teller". Read his (brilliant) short stories for adults. He was also a very good drinking buddy of Ian Fleming. Can you imagine Fleming wanting to spend time in the company of Purvis and Wade? He'd dismiss them as clueless young punks!

Meanwhile, right up to the exact point where Gustav Graves pulls the rip-chord to 'chute into Buckingham to receive his Knighthood, Die Another Day remains completely plausable with loads of Fleming elements.

Completely plausible? Right, okay. Ignore the gene therapy and (offscreen) space weapon-building that's been going on till that "London Calling" moment. Also, I seriously doubt that Fleming would have had Bond.... surfing (maybe it's just me, though).

YOLT has its OTT elements, I grant you, but at least 90% of the film might as well have been a faithful albeit slightly jazzed-up adaptation of a Fleming original. If you believe that more than five minutes of DAD could have flowed from old Ian's typewriter, well, I suspect you've been indulging in rather too much of what I'm told is excellent Canadian "green".

[Sensualist]

Take a second look at Sensualist's previous post to see HUGE pieces of Fleming (Casino Royale, Moonraker, TMWTGG) in Die Another Day.

[SnakeEyes]

Plausable? Uhh, no.

Surfing in? Hmm, I think that guard is equiped with the latest Q gadet: eyes. He would have seen them.
Then, in daylight, they force the chopper to land. Again, they would have been seen and heard.
Then they take over the chopper, where does the crew go? Folded up into a suitcase in the back? Left alone? That's a mission compromise right there.
Then, Bond (haha mole 2 players) lands in the chopper and somehow expects not to be noticed that it's not the guy who was meant to get there.
The Koreans wouldn't just accept a guy to land without a background, surely...
Then Bond blows the case, ruins the mission and makes a totaly hilarious (in it's obvious failure) attempt escape and then promptly gets captured (not, I might add, before he can say the worst one liner in the history of Bond...well up untill the rest of the DAD script).

You think all this is plausable? You think Fleming would leave these holes unturned? You must be reading the wrong books. Fleming is almost meticulous in his fine detail. Sure it's all escapism rubbish (that I enjoy), but DAD is simply rubbish rubbish (that I have distaste for).

The entire pre titles is ok, when you look at the rest of the series, but comparing it to Fleming? HAHAHAHAHA no. YOLT turns DAD into strawberry jam, kicks the living daylights out of it and revokes anyone who acted in that films licence to be cool.

"Can you imagine Fleming wanting to spend time in the company of Purvis and Wade? He'd dismiss them as clueless young punks!"

Exactly. lol.

[Loomis]

Sensualist is not wrong when he asserts that there are Fleming elements in DIE ANOTHER DAY. That is not what I contest. What I contest is the idea that DAD is more "Flemingian" (or "Fleming-esque", or whatever) a Bond flick than YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE.

[Sensualist]

Time to re-watch YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, I think, Sen. China has no role in the story whatsoever.

...and that the completion of an enemy rocket base in an ally of the US, i.e. Japan could go completely undetected.

No more implausible than, say, a plot by an industrialist who's fawned over by the British establishment to launch an atomic weapon on London from the Kent coast

If you believe that more than five minutes of DAD could have flowed from old Ian's typewriter, well, I suspect you've been indulging in rather too much of what I'm told is excellent Canadian "green".

No no. YOU should re-watch YOLT. It's clear Red China developed the Intruder rocket and are paying SPECTRE to orchestrate WWIII between the Americans and Soviets.

And, yes, the premise is much, much less plausable than the premise of Moonraker the book.

And, as proved, there cetainly is more than 5 mins of Fleming in 'Day.

Sensualist has already pointed out the books from which Die Another Day came. (Casino Royale, Moonraker, TMWTGG)

As for 'Snakeyes'...he/she/it comes across as utterly juvenile...a horrible post without thinking about what is being discussed. Sensualist's offspring (having been exposed to James Bond DVDs from the age of three) can type an infinitely superior post. Certainly would be able to comprehend what Loomis and Sensualist are 'debating'.

Snakeeyes, what grade u in? 2? 3? Back to kindergarten to learn some debating and writing skills.

Edited by Sensualist, 21 March 2004 - 09:35 PM.

[Triton]

Interesting deviation from the main topic, I guess.

But back to the original topic. If we are to believe that the current uncertaintly over Brosnan's return as Bond is indeed over money, I really cannot blame Pierce Brosnan. Its business isn't it? The game is to make the maximum that the employer is willing to spend. I mean heaven forbid that he wants to be compensated for his time.

If Eon or MGM/UA are balking at the figure he is demanding and Brosnan is still the preferred choice as Bond actor, I believe that some agreement will be reached before the cameras roll on Bond XXI.

I don't agree with the idea that Brosnan owes it all to Bond. I mean he found work in television and film prior to being cast as Bond. Who's to say that he wouldn't have achieved superstardom by playing another character?

[Loomis]

No no. YOU should re-watch YOLT. It's clear Red China developed the Intruder rocket and are paying SPECTRE to orchestrate WWIII between the Americans and Soviets.

Saw it today, old buddy. China ain't mentioned at all (at least not in the edit I saw), and, no, I don't want to put money on it.

[Loomis]

I don't agree with the idea that Brosnan owes it all to Bond. I mean he found work in television and film prior to being cast as Bond. Who's to say that he wouldn't have achieved superstardom by playing another character?

No one. He might well have done. But as things have turned out, he does owe his level of stardom to Bond. If he'd played, say, John McClane in 1988, we'd now be saying he owed it all to the DIE HARDs, but as it happened it was 007. No shame in that.

[Sensualist]

No no. YOU should re-watch YOLT. It's clear Red China developed the Intruder rocket and are paying SPECTRE to orchestrate WWIII between the Americans and Soviets.

Saw it today, old buddy. China ain't mentioned at all (at least not in the edit I saw), and, no, I don't want to put money on it.

Ok...who, then, is paying Blofeld? Who created the Intruder Rocket? Who are the two Chinamen (one of whom accuses ESB of extortion just prior to witnessing Helga being fed to the piranah)?

Care to answer that, Loomie?

[Loomis]

Ok...who, then, is paying Blofeld?

Perhaps SPECTRE raised funds by approaching various venture capital organisations.

Who created the Intruder Rocket?

Some greedy egghead from eastern Europe, most probably. Another Wladislav Kutze, I imagine.

Who are the two Chinamen (one of whom accuses ESB of extortion just prior to witnessing Helga being fed to the piranah)?

Dunno. Might they not be Hong Kong Chinese or Taiwanese?

Aw, heck, Sen, you may well be right. Perhaps I wasn't paying enough attention at the time (must have been too busy ogling Mie Hama).

But I remain of the view that YOLT is much more "Fleming" than DAD.

Anyway, I'm off to the pub now, so I'll continue this discussion later. You drive me to drink, Sensualist!

[Triton]

No no. YOU should re-watch YOLT. It's clear Red China developed the Intruder rocket and are paying SPECTRE to orchestrate WWIII between the Americans and Soviets.

Saw it today, old buddy. China ain't mentioned at all (at least not in the edit I saw), and, no, I don't want to put money on it.

Ok...who, then, is paying Blofeld? Who created the Intruder Rocket? Who are the two Chinamen (one of whom accuses ESB of extortion just prior to witnessing Helga being fed to the piranah)?

Care to answer that, Loomie?

Sensualist you presume that since the two men are of Asian ancestory and since they wish war to break out between Russia and the United States, they are Chinese. But their nationality is never given in the film, so I am not entirely certain where they came from. We can only infer from the nature of the dialogue and their ancestry that they were meant to be Chinese.

The actor playing Blofeld's financier was Hisako Katakura, which sounds like a Japanese name to me. They could have been Japanese or Korean for all we know.

As for the intruder rocket, it was never revealed who actually manufactured that as well. But I presume with some of the German accented voices in the volcano control room, it was built by German rocket experts under the employ of SPECTRE.

[Sensualist]

Sensualist IS right, Loomie. No "mights" about it. (YOLT DVD, 1:06:10):

Blofeld complements the two Chinamen on THEIR equipment. And one of the geeks says that his GOVERNMENT is satisfied.

HELLO? Knock, Knock! Is there anyone in there?

They're clearly Red Chinese government bag boys.

To assume anything else is complete stupidity and a miscomprehension of the geo-political climate/circumstances/relationships at the time.

....................

Loomis...you really ought to be less critical when it seems you yourself have a, *ahem*, hearing "situation".

And Triton, old friend, there are dozens of actors in the history of the James Bond series whose nationalities were NOT the SAME as the nationalities of the characters they played? (So what's the point in bringing up the nationality of the ACTOR who played Blofeld's "financier"? There is NO logic in your point.) Also, Was Germany an enemy of the US? Was Japan? Nope and nope, respectively. So why would Germany or Japan want war to break out between the US and the USSR circa 1967? Why would their GOVERNMENTs want that, Triton? They wouldn't...They were allies...going about rebuilding their econemies and standards of living under aid of the Marshall Plan...busy building volkswagons and sony transistors.

(North Korea? um, they were economically and technologically INFERIOR and were like annoying little flies at worst (and minding their own business at best)...couldn't possibly have spared the dough ESB wanted deposited in his account in Buenos Aries. And Vietnam? Well...they could barely feed their population at the time and were either busy working away in their rice paddies or mustering enough low-end weaponry to fight the war. Neither had an inkling of space capability.)

Sensualist will also remind you both that it were the Red Chinese whackos that provided Goldfinger with the dirty bomb to cause economic chaos in the West.

Dirty rotten commies!!!

Edited by Sensualist, 22 March 2004 - 01:51 AM.

[Sensualist]

As for the intruder rocket, it was never revealed who actually manufactured that as well.

It WAS revealed. At precisely:

1h 06m 10sec.

Triton, old chap, forget your assumptions. Just check it.

Edited by Sensualist, 22 March 2004 - 12:33 AM.

[Loomis]

They're clearly Red Chinese government bag boys.

Possibly. But Fleming wouldn't have shied away from Red Chinese villains. "Colonel Sun", which was published the year after YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE opened, and which is far and away the most Fleming-esque of the continuation novels, features a baddie from the People's Republic. What's the problem?

If you say that YOLT overestimates the PRC's technological abilities, fair enough; but I don't notice your complaining that the Brosnan films absurdly overstate Britain's global influence and military might (just check out TOMORROW NEVER DIES, which is built on the ridiculous premise that the UK would be prepared to wage war on China singlehandedly, and at extremely short notice).

Back to DIE ANOTHER DAY: the character of Jinx is pure Fleming, isn't she? And Ian would have loved the idea of a Korean henchman turning himself into a German teenager. Not to mention Bond surfing, an invisible car, and Moneypenny (almost) masturbating to a virtual reality gizmo. And then there's Judi Dench's M - so Fleming you can almost smell the cigarette smoke and rancid end-of-Empire bigotry.

Fleming would have creamed himself over a "sassy" Moneypenny who "gives as good as she gets" ("You go girl!"), as well as over Robinson. A black Briton as Bond's equal? Yep, that really chimes with Fleming's '50s and '60s novels. Bond with a big shaggy beard? Verity the smartass American fencing instructor (an American woman as the fencing coach at Blades!)? Bond taking part in a VR training exercise? It's staring me in the face! DAD is truly a festival of Fleming! Wow, are we quite sure it wasn't a lost Fleming script that Purvis and Wade discovered and touched up?

So, I remain convinced that:

- YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is, broadly speaking, faithful to the spirit of the Fleming novels, and indeed a story that Fleming might have written (well, he wrote [or co-wrote] THUNDERBALL, which is about SPECTRE's theft of atomic bombs, for crying out loud!);

- DIE ANOTHER DAY, while containing plenty of "nods and winks" to the works of Fleming (and Amis, as well as to the 19 previous Eon films), is nonetheless far removed in terms of content and tone from anything the Master would have turned his hand to.

ETA: Staffers, perhaps this and the last few posts in this thread ought to be split off to form a new topic, "YOLT and DAD - which is closer to Fleming?", or something like that.