23 replies to this topic

[deth]

........ Where in the Benson books does anything go contrary to something in the Gardner books....... hell, he even mentions in Never Dream of Dying that he heard that Draco had died...... like Gardner writes in Nobody Lives Forever......



........is there anything?

[Qwerty]

Benson always used past elements from Bond books in his, such as the governor from Quantum of Solace in the opening of one of his novels.

There was a thread similar to this somewhere, but I see what you mean.

[zencat]

Benson was told he could use or change anything he wanted from the Gardner books and that he didn't need to worry about continuity. He made some wise changes, IMO. Like geting rid of the ASP (and bringing back the PPK), getting rid of the whole MicroGlobe One thingo, and changing Bond back to a "Commander." The Draco thing didn't bother me. Heck, ever I didn't notice that one.

[deth]

I'm interested to see how that whole MicroGlobe One thing goes...... I'm starting Seafire now.......... then Cold............. I wonder if it works.... it sounds a bit stupid, imo.....



........actually, I kind of like the Captain Bond....... I don't see anything wrong with that.........

..........and bringing back the PPK...... well, I don't really care actually...... I do think Gardner did a good job of giving a reason for the ASP........

[Loomis]

If I'm not mistaken (and I hope zencat, clinkeroo, Jim or someone equally au fait with the literary Bond will correct me if I am), Benson didn't think much of Gardner or his books. So he may have been only too pleased to change things that Gardner had written.

[clinkeroo]

If I'm not mistaken (and I hope zencat, clinkeroo, Jim or someone equally au fait with the literary Bond will correct me if I am), Benson didn't think much of Gardner or his books. So he may have been only too pleased to change things that Gardner had written.

Once I'm home from work, I can drag out the Bedside Companion and some old Benson interviews to give some quotes, but Raymond had some nice things to say about the Gardner novels. It's just that the things he disliked, and chose to ignore, or write off, in his own novels, received more attention.

BTW- personal thing, but thank God for the death of MicroGlobe One.

[Loomis]

Raymond had some nice things to say about the Gardner novels. It's just that the things he disliked, and chose to ignore, or write off, in his own novels, received more attention.

Perhaps, but I do think he could have shown more concern for Gardner's feelings on occasion (I'm not blaming him for not being a big Gardner fan, though). For instance, didn't he once interview Amis for a Bond fans' magazine, an interview that turned into a Gardner-bashing festival?

Also, there's Benson's famous putdown: "Fleming's works are to be savored at Sardi's, while Gardner's are to be munched at McDonalds."

[zencat]

[quote name='Loomis' date='11 March 2004 - 10:12'] [quote name='clinkeroo' date='11 March 2004 - 17:59'] Raymond had some nice things to say about the Gardner novels.

[Loomis]

And where exactly did that "McDonalds" quote come from? I know I've heard it but, again, I don't remember it being Benson who said it.

It's in the Bedside Companion - I no longer own a copy, so I can't give you the exact quotation, but I'm 100% sure it's in there.

As for the Bondage interview, I seem to remember a thread on this site a few months ago ("New Interview With Gardner", or something like that) in which Gardner complained of being slagged by Amis and Benson.

[clinkeroo]

Perhaps, but I do think he could have shown more concern for Gardner's feelings on occasion (I'm not blaming him for not being a big Gardner fan, though). For instance, didn't he once interview Amis for a Bond fans' magazine, an interview that turned into a Gardner-bashing festival?

Also, there's Benson's famous putdown: "Fleming's works are to be savored at Sardi's, while Gardner's are to be munched at McDonalds."

Fair point, Loomis.

I would love to have the complete text of the Amis interview; it was always fascinating to hear him talk Bond. Can anyone remember the magazine and issue?

I always loved the McDonald's quote; Stephen King often quotes a reviewer who said something similar of his (King's) writing.

Although I'm not a huge fan of his Bond work, I have to agree with you, in that, Gardner usually gives a steadfast "no comment" when asked about his opinions of Benson's Bond work. It takes a class act to refuse such a chance at reprisal.

In Raymond's defense, he spent much of his pre-Bond writing life as a fan, writing and speaking as such. As I recall, Gardner had some rather unfriendly things to say about Bond and Fleming himself before he took over the mantle.

[Loomis]

Although I'm not a huge fan of his Bond work, I have to agree with you, in that, Gardner usually gives a steadfast "no comment" when asked about his opinions of Benson's Bond work. It takes a class act to refuse such a chance at reprisal.

I agree. He drops little hints, though - for instance, in the thread I refer to in my above post I think he remarks (in response to a question like "How did you get on with the other continuation novelists?): "Kingsley was always very nice to my face."

A class act, indeed.

[Mister Asterix]

From The James Bond Bedside Companion page 149-150:

There is a semblance of a Back to top #13 Loomis Loomis Commander CMG Veterans 21862 posts Posted 11 March 2004 - 07:08 PM [quote name='Mister Asterix' date='11 March 2004 - 19:07'] There is a semblance of a Back to top #14 Simon Simon Commander Veterans 5884 posts Location:England Posted 11 March 2004 - 07:17 PM "But in a way, the novels move too quickly. They can be read easily and digested without much thought." 'Twould seem he didn't learn then from other's perceived mistakes as this is one such criticism I would lie at the door of Mr Benson. The number of times I had found myself having read a paragraph and realised that Bond had defeated the bad guy, bedded the good girl and crossed three continents... Back to top #15 Loomis Loomis Commander CMG Veterans 21862 posts Posted 11 March 2004 - 07:21 PM The number of times I had found myself having read a paragraph and realised that Bond had defeated the bad guy, bedded the good girl and crossed three continents... LOL. Exactly. Back to top #16 Simon Simon Commander Veterans 5884 posts Location:England Posted 11 March 2004 - 07:33 PM Perhaps it was a subconcious attempt to give his audience less to do to get to the end. (I'll stop sniping now - it's not very dignified) Back to top #17 TheSaint TheSaint Commander RNR Veterans Reserve 3067 posts Location:Bronx,NY Posted 12 March 2004 - 05:22 AM It's in the Bedside Companion - I no longer own a copy, so I can't give you the exact quotation, but I'm 100% sure it's in there. How does one no longer own a copy of, quite possibly, the best thing Benson has ever written? Back to top #18 Jim Jim Commander RNVR Commanding Officers 14266 posts Location:Oxfordshire Posted 12 March 2004 - 08:46 AM Yeah, the McDonald's thing... oh dear. That unwise Amis interview aside - (which is simply embarassing kowtowing and not an appealing interview as such - although marginally less cringe-inducing than "that was so fresh!" when agreeing with Timothy Dalton on how his reading of "Bond, James Bond" had been in LTK) - really is poor form and exposes a lack of class - Mr Benson does seem to value the Gardner output. He didn't abandon everything (after all, technically, Mr Gardner did introduce the female M into the literary Bond world, even if as a result, GoldenEye is out of sync with Cold. I appreciate that this was not Gardner's artistic decision. however; but then neither was it Mr Benson's). It is noticeable, however, that Mr Benson does tend to jettison some of Mr Gardner's more outre (and accordingly, "interesting") elements - Q'ute (like it or not, she was something new), plain cars (although the Jaguar XK8 is a bit of a "middle management hair loss recapture youth" tragi-wagon), traitortraitortraitortraitor (which, granted, became very silly), MicroGlobe One (pretty stupid idea, but it's an idea) - and as a result, the Benson books are terribly conservative (small c). And yes, he was probably forced to do them (I hesitate to venture "write them", naughty Jim) that way... but I still can't see what the Benson selection added (good ideas or bad). The only remotely "interesting" ones are High Time to Kill and Doubleshot, where he tried to play with the structure (but they are shockingly poorly written; however, that's another argument). However, in terms of moving Bond's world on, which is rather what I suspect Mr Gardner was intending to do, where do the Benson books go? Most of (even the sparse positive) criticism of Mr Benson's books are that they are a "return" or "take Bond back...[to wherever]"; not forward. The Gardner books, far from perfect, several far from good, seem, in retrospect, to be trying new ideas out. The Benson books, generally, don't. Again, this may well be the result of strict limitations on what he could write, so save that it's his name on the cover, it probably isn't his fault. But it's interesting to see the Benson advocates blaming the publishers' dicta for the things they don't like but ever-so-slightly inconsistently they seem unwilling to recognise that it may well be the result of the publishers and editor that produce the moments in the Benson books that they do appreciate. Funny, that. And then instantly depressing. Back to top #19 deth deth Lt. Commander Veterans 2651 posts Location:Berlin, Germany Posted 12 March 2004 - 11:27 PM yes, good point Jim....... I agree that Gardner does seem to be often trying out new ideas...... I think TMFB actually worked..... (maybe that's just me)...... I can't say for the MicroGlobe thing for another couple weeks (I'm reading Seafire and then Cold) ...... If Benson did indeed put down Gardner's work like that, then his work is very ironic........ (Q'ute should have been kept...... nothing at all wrong with that.... In fact, I felt Gardner handled that well..... he could easily have given her a bigger role all the way through his books..... instead he minimzed it.... that was wise) Back to top #20 marktmurphy marktmurphy Commander Veterans 9055 posts Location:London Posted 13 March 2004 - 12:23 PM Spot on Jim. Gardner is interesting and professional. With mixed results, but you don't feel like you've wasted your time quite as much as you do when you've let a Benson fall past your eyes. Back to top #21 Agent 76 Agent 76 Commander Veterans 7080 posts Location:Portugal Posted 18 March 2004 - 08:29 PM what is the best Bond book by Benson? some advice to buy... Back to top #22 Qwerty Qwerty Commander RNVR Commanding Officers 85605 posts Location:New York / Pennsylvania Posted 18 March 2004 - 08:34 PM It's all a matter of taste, Agent76, personally, I feel High Time to Kill and The Facts of Death are his two best, but I like all 9 of his novels. Many others will point out DoubleShot or The Man With the Red Tattoo or any of them, with Benson, I feel you have to just pick one and try it out. Back to top #23 doublenoughtspy doublenoughtspy Commander RNVR Commanding Officers 4122 posts Location:USA Posted 18 March 2004 - 08:40 PM Benson even threw out Pearson's ending of The James Bond Biography - that Irma Bunt was in Australia. While you have to give an author flexibility - the number of things he threw out from his predecessors was just too high. Either reward me for being a fan and reading all the books or make each adventure entirely self contained. But I am sure soon enough, when Benson's successor is named by IFP - that he will learn what it feels like when someone eliminates ideas, concepts, and characters you spent time developing. Back to top #24 zencat zencat Commander GCMG Commanding Officers 25814 posts Location:Studio City, CA Posted 28 March 2004 - 11:56 PM For the answers to many of the questions that have been raised here, check out my first in a series of interviews with Raymond Benson HERE. Back to top Back to Raymond Benson (1997-2002) Reply to quoted posts     Clear

[Loomis]

[quote name='Mister Asterix' date='11 March 2004 - 19:07'] There is a semblance of a

[Simon]

"But in a way, the novels move too quickly. They can be read easily and digested without much thought."

'Twould seem he didn't learn then from other's perceived mistakes as this is one such criticism I would lie at the door of Mr Benson.

The number of times I had found myself having read a paragraph and realised that Bond had defeated the bad guy, bedded the good girl and crossed three continents...

[Loomis]

The number of times I had found myself having read a paragraph and realised that Bond had defeated the bad guy, bedded the good girl and crossed three continents...

LOL. Exactly.

[Simon]

Perhaps it was a subconcious attempt to give his audience less to do to get to the end.

(I'll stop sniping now - it's not very dignified)

[TheSaint]

It's in the Bedside Companion - I no longer own a copy, so I can't give you the exact quotation, but I'm 100% sure it's in there.

How does one no longer own a copy of, quite possibly, the best thing Benson has ever written?

[Jim]

Yeah, the McDonald's thing... oh dear.

That unwise Amis interview aside - (which is simply embarassing kowtowing and not an appealing interview as such - although marginally less cringe-inducing than "that was so fresh!" when agreeing with Timothy Dalton on how his reading of "Bond, James Bond" had been in LTK) - really is poor form and exposes a lack of class - Mr Benson does seem to value the Gardner output.

He didn't abandon everything (after all, technically, Mr Gardner did introduce the female M into the literary Bond world, even if as a result, GoldenEye is out of sync with Cold. I appreciate that this was not Gardner's artistic decision. however; but then neither was it Mr Benson's).

It is noticeable, however, that Mr Benson does tend to jettison some of Mr Gardner's more outre (and accordingly, "interesting") elements - Q'ute (like it or not, she was something new), plain cars (although the Jaguar XK8 is a bit of a "middle management hair loss recapture youth" tragi-wagon), traitortraitortraitortraitor (which, granted, became very silly), MicroGlobe One (pretty stupid idea, but it's an idea) - and as a result, the Benson books are terribly conservative (small c).

And yes, he was probably forced to do them (I hesitate to venture "write them", naughty Jim) that way... but I still can't see what the Benson selection added (good ideas or bad).

The only remotely "interesting" ones are High Time to Kill and Doubleshot, where he tried to play with the structure (but they are shockingly poorly written; however, that's another argument). However, in terms of moving Bond's world on, which is rather what I suspect Mr Gardner was intending to do, where do the Benson books go? Most of (even the sparse positive) criticism of Mr Benson's books are that they are a "return" or "take Bond back...[to wherever]"; not forward.

The Gardner books, far from perfect, several far from good, seem, in retrospect, to be trying new ideas out. The Benson books, generally, don't. Again, this may well be the result of strict limitations on what he could write, so save that it's his name on the cover, it probably isn't his fault.

But it's interesting to see the Benson advocates blaming the publishers' dicta for the things they don't like but ever-so-slightly inconsistently they seem unwilling to recognise that it may well be the result of the publishers and editor that produce the moments in the Benson books that they do appreciate. Funny, that. And then instantly depressing.

[deth]

yes, good point Jim....... I agree that Gardner does seem to be often trying out new ideas...... I think TMFB actually worked..... (maybe that's just me)...... I can't say for the MicroGlobe thing for another couple weeks (I'm reading Seafire and then Cold)

...... If Benson did indeed put down Gardner's work like that, then his work is very ironic........


(Q'ute should have been kept...... nothing at all wrong with that.... In fact, I felt Gardner handled that well..... he could easily have given her a bigger role all the way through his books..... instead he minimzed it.... that was wise)

[marktmurphy]

Spot on Jim. Gardner is interesting and professional. With mixed results, but you don't feel like you've wasted your time quite as much as you do when you've let a Benson fall past your eyes.

[Agent 76]

what is the best Bond book by Benson? some advice to buy...

[Qwerty]

It's all a matter of taste, Agent76, personally, I feel High Time to Kill and The Facts of Death are his two best, but I like all 9 of his novels.

Many others will point out DoubleShot or The Man With the Red Tattoo or any of them, with Benson, I feel you have to just pick one and try it out.

[doublenoughtspy]

Benson even threw out Pearson's ending of The James Bond Biography - that Irma Bunt was in Australia.

While you have to give an author flexibility - the number of things he threw out from his predecessors was just too high. Either reward me for being a fan and reading all the books or make each adventure entirely self contained.

But I am sure soon enough, when Benson's successor is named by IFP - that he will learn what it feels like when someone eliminates ideas, concepts, and characters you spent time developing.

[zencat]

For the answers to many of the questions that have been raised here, check out my first in a series of interviews with Raymond Benson HERE.