56 replies to this topic

[Mister Asterix]

Just so nobody is confused. It is 007 (Zero-Zero-Seven).

[Bondian]

Hi Mr *,

No, you've made it quite clear it's 007 'Double O' Seven' but 007 is written in numerals.

Thanks for your excellent response Mr *.

All the best Mate,

Cheers,


Ian

[Mister Asterix]

I didn

[Bondian]

Hi Mister Asterix,

No confusion at all. Just wanted to say 'thank you' again.

Thank you again,

Cheers,


Ian

[mattbowyer]

Hmmm i've always said OO7 but you guys do make a compelling case.

Screw you guys, that renders about half of my internet and banking codes now WRONG!

[DLibrasnow]

To each his own I guess!

[Bondian]

Originally posted by mattbowyer
Hmmm i've always said OO7 but you guys do make a compelling case.

Screw you guys, that renders about half of my internet and banking codes now WRONG!

Hi Matt,

I'm sorry about that my friend.

That 'Mole' get's everywhere. LOL


Cheers,


Ian

[Jim]

It's a number, isn't it?

I go for the "calling a zero "Oh" theory". Two Zeros in the later Gardner books (a bad idea, but holds to this) and as Zencat pointed out, Tanaka and "Zero Zero" throughout.

Tiger, Tiger, burning bright, not a man who's talking ****e.

If it was literally double-oh, then his number could be pronounced Oooooh Seven, which is furiously camp.

[DLibrasnow]

That's right -- Bond was referred to as "Zero Zero" in YOLT.

[General Koskov]

The controversy around what Fleming typed, what the printer printed, and how the hell one pronounces either stems from the different fonts used at different times. I'm no typologist, or linguist, but I've looked at some different prints of Fleming, new books, and typed out '007' and 'OO7' on my computer in endless fonts and found the answer:

Fleming wrote the numeral '0' (zero). (Or at least intended to, if what Mr * says is true.) Whoever printed the books used a font (used in many fifties books) comparable to what MS Word calls 'Georgia' (perhaps it was called Georgia then, too). Anyway, the numeral zero is perfectly round in this font, with no bulges at the sides or anything (look hard at one of your old copies of Fleming). The font also prints threes, fours, fives, sevens, and nines with their 'tails' hanging below the line--the other numbers (including zero) are all as short as lower-case letters. In the case of zero, this makes it look rather like a lower-case 'o'. In fact, the font 'Times New Roman' was invented by the London Times in the nineteenth century to improve on this font's numerals. Times New Roman is the standard nowadays (including reprints of Fleming and Benson books) and thus gives us the tall, oval zeroes and the seven above the line.

The confusion resulting from this font is compounded by the fact that when Fleming wrote 'double-o' (i.e. without the '7', when referring to the section in general) he typed it (or it was printed) just as I did above, with a lower-case 'o'! Talk of inconsistency.

Going back to the 'no zero on his typewriter' idea (he could afford a gold typewriter, but not one extra key!), the printer may have seen every zero on the manuscript as a lower-case 'o', but only converted the obvious intended-numerals (dates, '007') to actual numerals, while ignoring the 'double-o's (by accident?).

All this adds up to a situation where when we read an old Fleming, it is really easy to confuse zero with lower-case 'o'. Moral of the story: Bond's number is just that, a set of numerals: two successive zeroes followed by a seven. End of story.

PS. One thing that bothers me about Benson's writing (or his editor or whoever) is the fact that he writes 'Double-Oh' instead of Fleming's 'Double-o', and worse he writes 'Double-Oh Seven' instead of '007'. The first is not a big thing, since it merely accentuates the colloquial pronounciation of the numeral, but I do wish he'd stop that and also stop referring to 'Double-Oh Seven'/'007' in the narrative. I believe Fleming always called him by name.

PPS. After this bout of 'research' (about a year ago; I think I wrote a thread too...?) the 'Georgia' font grew on me and I have set my Windows ME, Word, and Internet Explorer to display every webpage in 'Georgia'. When at CB.n, I read '007' as Fleming's printer meant it to be read!

PPPS. Sorry if this is long and confusing.

PPPPS. Sorry about making it even longer with that last post-post-post-script. And this one. Okay (or is it OK?!),I'll stop now.

[Mister Asterix]

You

[Bondian]

Hi General,

Thanks very much for your humorous and informative post. I agree that that font would look like an 'O' as opposed to a '0'.

All the best,

Cheers,


Ian

[Bondian]

Now, how about 0O7?, or O07?.

Ha, will I ever let it be...


Cheers,


Ian

[Bondian]

I do not like bumping old topics, but I thought this could hold more discussion considering the two previous Bond films use the "OO" or "00" in the titles.

[Hitch]

PS. One thing that bothers me about Benson's writing (or his editor or whoever) is the fact that he writes 'Double-Oh' instead of Fleming's 'Double-o'...

In the past, I've used "Double-O".

Poohsticks.

This is crying out for a poem entitled "Oh, James" - or should that be "O James" if one's feeling Wordsworthian?

[Mister Asterix]

I do not like bumping old topics, but I thought this could hold more discussion considering the two previous Bond films use the "OO" or "00" in the titles.

Neither Casino Royale or Quantum of Solace had 007 in the title, but I assume you refer to the movie’s logos. In which case, I’ll just say that is just design that uses O and 0 interchangeably. Nothing to it really. Unless do you think ‘CBn’ ends in a sideways ‘7’?

[Daddy Bond]

I know others have said or implied this, but I wanted to chime in. Well, it is 007 (as in the number). Bond's number is 007. However, in speech, saying the letter "O" is grammatically acceptable as a referance to the number "0" (this is likely because they look almost identical, if not potentially identical). It is not necessarily true that a person is confusing an O (letter) for a 0 (number) if they say "O" (letter) to describe "0" (number), because it is culturally acceptable to say "O" to represent the number.

Part of the reason we call the number "0" by the letter "O" as we do, is because of the way the letter sounds and is formed in our mouth. Such a description is phenomenologically appropriate for a zero as a verbal/visual description of the number without implying confusion as to whether the person is referring to a number because it is visually similar and has come to be used in such a way. It seems almost impossible to think that Fleming, an author, would not be aware of this fact, and there is no reason to assume that because he used the letter "O" (as in Double-O) to describe Bond that he meant anything other than the number 007. In fact, I would be shocked if he didn't know this. Another reason is "O" is shorter, easier to say and sounds better, smoother and cooler to say Double-O (meaning double 0 - number). "Zero, zero, seven" sound awkward (as it did in YOLT, however, it was accurate). I'm not sure why there's a confusion on this. I think Fleming would be surprised if anyone conluded that "Double-O" (letters) was referring to the actual letter "O" rather than the number "0". Personally, I thought this was common knowledge.

We all use language all the time that is technically inaccurate for various reasons (on purpose). What person is there who says, "That was a beautiful sunrise" who also believes that the sun travels around the earth? We all know better, we are not confused, we are using phenomenological language. So an O (letter) is perfectly acceptable as a term for a 0 zero in the English language, but I guess not everyone is aware of that fact.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

It has been always 007 for me. Double 0 seven. Altough, in english the "zero" can be also pronounced as an "oh".

Wait, according to the "Mr Kiss Kiss Bang Bang" theme it's zero...
That's why the zero's double...

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

I never had a problem with this, until I learnt english, because in spanish we just pronounce the 0 as a number, not as the letter O, therefore it was always "Cero-cero-siete" (zero-zero-seven) for me, and not "Doble-o-siete" (Double-o-seven).

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 25 January 2009 - 02:13 AM.

[ACE]

Ian Fleming is said to have got the "00" from the code for Top Secret files that passed his desk while he was working for DNI.

In the novels, various non-00 agents are given 3 number codes.
In "You Only Live Twice", Bond is promoted to a four digit number - 7777.

In English, "Oh" can be taken to mean Zero. That's why "Double-Oh Seven" is 007.

IMO, I thought is was always fairly clear that it that Bond's code is a 3-digit number.

I have always been perplexed why people use "OO" instead of "00" as a prefix to 7.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

I never had a problem with this, until I learnt english, because in spanish we just pronounce the 0 as a number, not as the letter O, therefore it was always "Cero-cero-siete" (zero-zero-seven) for me, and not "Doble-o-siete" (Double-o-seven).

Same to me.

[Joey Bond]

I never had a problem with this, until I learnt english, because in spanish we just pronounce the 0 as a number, not as the letter O, therefore it was always "Cero-cero-siete" (zero-zero-seven) for me, and not "Doble-o-siete" (Double-o-seven).

Same to me.

Same for Thai. It's the equilvalent of zero-zero-seven, although I think Double O sounds cooler

[Wronschien]

In French they say in the films "double zéro sept" ("double zero seven") but usually people say "zéro zéro sept"

Edited by Wronschien, 25 January 2009 - 10:59 AM.

[Harry Fawkes]

Double Oh as in O.

In Italian it's Zero Zero Sette

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Remember Red Grant in From Russia With Love when he says "Take it easy, 007" to Bond in the Orient Express? There he says "Oh Oh Seven"

[Double-Oh Agent]

In English, "Oh" can be taken to mean Zero. That's why "Double-Oh Seven" is 007.

Exactly. Besides, "oh" is easier to say than "zero" (and it certainly sounds cooler to say "Double-Oh-Seven" rather than "Double-Zero-Seven.")

So to answer the thread's question, it reads as numbers zero-zero-seven, but is pronounced Double-Oh-Seven.

[Daddy Bond]

Yes, Bond has a three digit number: number zero, number zero, number seven. In English, the number zero is sometimes read as the letter "O", while all the while STILL meaning the number zero, EVEN if the letter "O" is spoken.

OK, last time, sometimes in English, the number zero is read as the letter "O" without intentding to imply that the number has changed to a letter.

There should not be any confusion on this. Is anyone still struggling with this???