43 replies to this topic

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Tanger

I also think that Brown plays Hargreaves btw. It just seems logical.

I agree Tanger....it makes a lot of logical sense

This is partly because it is perfectly plausible that Admiral Hargreaves would be a candidate for replacing Sir Miles after Sir Miles' retirement (due to ill health that had him on convalescent leave in 1981).

Can anyone believe that M wouldn't have canceled his leave in 1981 when something as big as the ATAC was at risk if he was in good health!

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

it is perfectly plausible that Admiral Hargreaves would be a candidate for replacing Sir Miles after Sir Miles' retirement (due to ill health that had him on convalescent leave in 1981).  

How do we know that Admiral Hargreaves didn't die in, say, 1978, a few months after the events of THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, and that Brown's M isn't Admiral Sir Humphrey Hasselhoff, Admiral Sir Liam Gallagher-McCartney, or some previously unmentioned naval bigwig?

From http://www.mjnewton....bond/mult_m.htm:

The fact that Bond has a superior called M is another ingredient in the famous formula of the James Bond films. In The James Bond Bedside Companion, Raymond Benson suggests that the character was probably based on Rear Admiral John Godfrey, the British Director of Naval Intelligence, whom Ian Fleming worked for during the Second World War. However, the idea is clearly influenced by the fact that the real director general of the Secret Service is known as C (after Mansfield Cumming, the founder of MI6 and its original director general). In his biography of Fleming, John Pearson suggests that the choice of M was inspired by the fact that this was what a young Fleming called his mother.
To date three actors have played the part of M, the head of the Secret Service - Bernard Lee, Robert Brown and Judi Dench. GoldenEye made it clear for the first time that M was the designation for a position rather than one particular person, with Dench playing a new M. This approach was previously used in the non-EON film Never Say Never Again where Edward Fox played a new M.

It is clear that Bernard Lee's character, the original M, was intended to be the M of Fleming's novels, who was named as Admiral Sir Miles Messervy in "The Man With The Golden Gun". This is confirmed in the films in You Only Live Twice (M wears an Admiral's uniform), On Her Majesty's Secret Service (in which Bond visits Quarterdeck, M's home, and is directed towards "the Admiral") and The Spy Who Loved Me (in which General Gogol calls the character Miles). The first of these films is interesting since it is the only time that we have seen M off-duty. We discover that he has a butler, Chief Petty Officer Hammond, and collects butterflies.

Due to illness, Lee was almost absent from Live and Let Die, and Kenneth More was apparently set to resume the role. However, Lee recovered and continued until his death in 1981, prior to For Your Eyes Only. As a mark of respect the part was not immediately recast and M was said to be on leave. Then Robert Brown made his first appearance in Octopussy. There is an interesting debate as to whether Robert Brown's M is still intended to be Miles Messervy (in the way that Bond and Moneypenny have been played by different actors) or is actually a different character who has now been designated M. Indeed, it is has been speculated that the new M is in fact Admiral Hargreaves, the character that Brown played in The Spy Who Loved Me.

There is little evidence to point in either direction. For Brown's first appearance in Octopussy there is no dialogue to indicate a new M and it is all business as usual. This fits with the press material for the film which apparently stated that Brown was intended to be the same character as Lee. There appears to be some useful evidence when Brown's M is referred to as "Admiral" by General Gogol in A View to a Kill. Unfortunately, since both Messervy and Hargreaves were Admirals this evidence isn't particularly conclusive! As a final point on this issue, it is worth noting that in the literary continuity of the novels penned by John Gardner and Raymond Benson, it is made clear that it is Miles Messervy who is replaced by a female M.

Following the hiatus in the series between Licence To Kill and GoldenEye some changes were made to the role of M. Inspired by the fact that MI5, one of Britain's security agencies, was headed by a woman (Stella Rimmington) respected stage actress Judi Dench was cast as a new M. The character also reflected modern concerns in initially being considered more of an accountant than her predecessors, concerned more with budgets than her staff, again reminiscent of the Edward Fox character in Never Say Never Again, although Bond and the new M have a more stable working relationship by the time of Tomorrow Never Dies.

In his original Bond novel "The Facts Of Death" Raymond Benson names this M as Barbara Mawdsley. In GoldenEye it is mentioned that she has children. Early drafts of the script for that film also implied that Bond and M had had a relationship at some point in the past. However, we have learnt a little about the most recent M in the movies: both GoldenEye and The World Is Not Enough make reference to the fact that she has children, and the latter film reveals that she studied law at Oxford where she met Sir Robert King.

[Johnny Tower]

So, in effect, are we saying that Brad Whitaker from TLD came back from the dead and became Jack Wade in GE and that Dikko Henderson's death was faked in YOLT and he was really Blofeld with hair, minus the cat? And don't even get me started with Miss Andrea Anders and Octopussy! Just kidding. If I was to make an educated guess about the M situation, I would vote for Hargreaves was promoted as the new head of M.I.6. in Octopussy.

[Mister Asterix]

I am on the Brown played Sir Miles side, but I am willing to hear any evidence to the contrary. I think the producers may have left this intentionally ambiguous.

Whenever this comes up I ask for evidence. The arguement that if Brown is Sir Miles than Cleese must be Boothroyd doesn't hold since Boothroyd was played by Peter Burton and Desmond Llewelyn. So the same Q was played by two different actors and then the third actor played the new Q. That logic could also be applied to M. However, both arguements are flawed logic. (The elephant is pink, therefore all elephants are pink.)

And since Charles Gray played both Dikko Henderson and Blofeld within the Connery era&mdashclearly not intended to be the same character, the logic that since Brown played Hargreaves and M in the Moore era they must be the same character doesn

[DLibrasnow]

Fair enough - there is always the interview with Mike Wilson, the fact that Brown had already been identified as an Admiral Hargreaves and is later referred to as an Admiral in his role as M, the fact that M was on leave during a crucial moment for the UK in 1981 would suggest he was in ill health (a cause possibly for retirement).

Johnny Tower - the flaw in your point is that it is plauaible for Browns Admiral Hargreaves to assume the position of M following Sir Miles' retirement. However, that is not the case for either Joe Don Baker or Charles Gray' dual roles.

Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference, nothing said by anyone in this thread is going to change what the other side thinks.

[Blue Eyes]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
Can anyone believe that M wouldn't have canceled his leave in 1981 when something as big as the ATAC was at risk if he was in good health!

Yes. Because this issue doesn't lie solely in the world of Bond - but outside with the producers.

It's plausible that M doesn't cancel his leave because producers didn't want anyone else to take Bernard Lee's role. (Again this is a real-world and Bond-world issue.)

Loomis' aforementioned press packs are an interesting piece of evidence.

And be careful with tying M's leave with ill-health. One is a fact, another is just conjecture.

[Triton]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
Can anyone believe that M wouldn't have canceled his leave in 1981 when something as big as the ATAC was at risk if he was in good health!

In the world of James Bond, crises involving weapons of mass destruction are routine. Although we have only seen the missions of 007 for the most part, we can presume that there are 11 other Double-O agents involved in missions throughout the world involving issues of international importance.

If M were to cancel his holiday each time a nuclear crisis needed to dealt with, the poor man would never have any time off.

Besides Chief of Staff Bill Tanner is prefectly capable of running MI6 while M is away.

[DLibrasnow]

That's why M went to Japan in YOLT, Egypt in TSWLM and Venice in MR I would assume.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Just a thought here...

In Fleming's world of James Bond was M so-called because the British Secret Service was headed by Sir Miles Messervey?

If Fleming decided to have Sir Miles replaced due to death/retirement (whatever) would the M designation change to the 1st letter of the replacement's last name - as in H for Hargraves?

I'm not continueing the arguement here, I'm curious how Fleming would have done it. Impossible to determine I know, but wasn't the orignial head of the British Secret Service called C for Cunningham?

PS: My notion is backed up by the fact that the current M's last name (according to Benson at least) is Mawdsley.

[Triton]

Originally posted by Blofeld's Cat
Just a thought here...

In Fleming's world of James Bond was M so-called because the British Secret Service was headed by Sir Miles Messervey?

If Fleming decided to have Sir Miles replaced due to death/retirement (whatever) would the M designation change to the 1st letter of the replacement's last name - as in H for Hargraves?

I'm not continueing the arguement here, I'm curious how Fleming would have done it. Impossible to determine I know, but wasn't the orignial head of the British Secret Service called C for Cunningham?

PS: My notion is backed up by the fact that the current M's last name (according to Benson at least) is Mawdsley.

Actually the name of the first head of the British Secret Intelligence Service, then known as the Foreign Section of the Secret Service Bureau, in 1909 was Sir Mansfield Cumming. Cumming signed his correspondence with the first initial of his last name C. Subsequent heads of the British Secret Intelligence service have traditionally been addressed as C. Some speculate that it's an abbreviation for Chief.

But what if the designation M doesn't come from Miles Messervy, but the first initial in Mansfield Cumming's first name? We can also speculate that the M designation could also stand for "Minister", "Master", or "Mother" at Ian Fleming's fictional Military Intelligence section Six (MI6). Wherever it comes from though, I presume that the head of MI6 in the fictional Bond universe will always be M no matter if the first initial of their last name is M or not.

[Triton]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
That's why M went to Japan in YOLT, Egypt in TSWLM and Venice in MR I would assume.

Touch

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by Triton
Actually the name of the first head of the British Secret Intelligence Service, then known as the Foreign Section of the Secret Service Bureau, in 1909 was Sir Mansfield Cumming.

That's him, that's who I was thinking of. Thanks for correcting me on the exact name, Triton.

Wherever it comes from though, I presume that the head of MI6 in the fictional Bond universe will always be M no matter if the first initial of their last name is M or not.

As with the likes of the 007 designation, yes I can go with that too.

I wonder if Benson felt compelled though to give the name of M as Mawdsley to stay with the possible theory that M refers to the last name of who's in charge. It could also be just a minor co-incidence, I guess.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Triton

Wherever it comes from though, I presume that the head of MI6 in the fictional Bond universe will always be M no matter if the first initial of their last name is M or not.

That's the way I have always understood it....no matter what the persons name, in 007's world the head of Mi6 will always be referred to as M.

[Blue Eyes]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
That's why M went to Japan in YOLT, Egypt in TSWLM and Venice in MR I would assume.

That also highlights that the desk work of MI6 is able to be run by Tanner, with M able to place his sole attention on a particular mission of gravity.