74 replies to this topic

[gkgyver]

No, Loomis, if it was PJ's decision, then he surely didn't know what he was doing

My suspect is that he was told to. Like you said, he lived the movie for four years and he should know what is good for ROTK and what is not. And this cut is one of the worst things that could have happened to the film. I can't believe he wanted to do it.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by gkgyver

My suspect is that he was told to. Like you said, he lived the movie for four years and he should know what is good for ROTK and what is not. And this cut is one of the worst things that could have happened to the film. I can't believe he wanted to do it.  

You seem to be quite a hardcore LOTR/Tolkien fan, gkgyver. I must admit that I've only seen the theatrical versions of FELLOWSHIP and TTT, and I've never read the books, so I'm sure you know the material a heck of a lot better than I do. Therefore, if you say that the cut is a bizarre/bad decision, I'm more than happy to take your word for it. That's not to say that I believe Peter Jackson is clueless, just that I am sure you have very good grounds for writing what you're writing. And I'm still most unimpressed by what appears to be highly unprofessional tantrum-throwing on Lee's part.

[Matt O'S oo4]

Film is without a doubt, one of these most difficult mediums to deal with when attemping to recreate a novelization.

So far, it has been wonderful.

I can understand how those who have read the books (even if only once) find the film (to this point) to tantilizing.

It is a guarantee that the Lee scenes are cut?

004

[gkgyver]

You may be quite right about the "hardcore fan"

Trust me, removing Saruman and Wormtongue from ROTK will cause more problems and loose ends than it can solve.
I'm sure PJ COULD change and cut the movie to make it work, but just thinking about the "how" makes me shudder. Would be the biggest change in the whole trilogy IMHO.

If you want, I can explain to you why, since it won't appear on any screen until laaate 2004.

As for TTT, 004, I understand THOSE changes, but this one ...

[Loomis]

Originally posted by gkgyver

Trust me, removing Saruman and Wormtongue from ROTK will cause more problems and loose ends than it can solve.  
I'm sure PJ COULD change and cut the movie to make it work, but just thinking about the "how" makes me shudder. Would be the biggest change in the whole trilogy IMHO.  

If you want, I can explain to you why, since it won't appear on any screen until laaate 2004.

Yes, I'd be interested in reading more of your thoughts, gk, not only on ROTK but also on the LOTR trilogy as a whole.

To what extent has the news of these cuts affected your anticipation of ROTK? And do you really think that Jackson and the folks at New Line have made a colossal blunder, due to a desperate desire to grab a Best Picture Oscar?

See, I've been instinctively siding with Jackson here on the assumption that, while the removal of Lee was unfortunate, he was making the correct artistic decision. But I admit, it's only an assumption.

[Matt O'S oo4]

Is it a guarentee that the scenes has been cut, or is this just a story kicked off by "sources unknown" which has been published on the internet?

How valid is this?

004

[gkgyver]

I wish I could say that there's still hope for the scene, but there's not. Really. Shame on ... well, whoever you think.

Ok, I try to keep it as short as possible, but this is always a problem when you try to explain Tolkien

Ok, now: as we knew from TTT, Merry and Pippin landed in Isengart, along with a whole bunch of Ents. No, I have to start even earlier:
Gandalf, who wandered as Gandalf The White through Fangorn, had a few talks with Treebeard and knew that the Ents were going to flood Isengart (a scene that explain this will appear on the extended version of TTT).
After the battle for Helm's Deep, Gandalf, along with Theoden, Eomer, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and a couple of Rohirrim rides to Isengart, now here it comes, >with the intention to meet Saruman<.
After gandalf's "death", he was sent back as The White Wizard, the head of the White Council (don't know the English term for it, sorry), the "chief wizard" if you want.
Before Saruman's treachery, HE was the White Wizard and Gandalf was the Grey Wizard, one level below.
And now, it is Gandalf's JOB to "fire" Saruman. He talks to him and offers him to hand over his "magic wand" and the Key for Orthanc peacefully. Of course he refuses and Gandalf breaks his little magic stick.
Wormtongue, who is still at Saruman's side, tries to protect his master and tries to kill Gandalf by throwing the Palantir out of the window of Orthanc (Grima doesn't know the power and meaning of the stone).
You know, the thing Saruman uses to communicate with Sauron.
He missed him and the Palantir lands in the mud.

OK; until this point, the movie would most likely have followed the story of the book.
Now, in the book, after this Palantir-thing, Pippin picks it up and wants to look at it, but Gandalf rips it out of his hands and keeps it safe under his coat. As they walk away, they hear a scream from Grima. I suppose Saruman tortured him a bit for throwing the Palantir away.

In the movie, following would have happened:
Grima would have throwed the stone away, and Saruman, in rage, shouts that Grima killed Theoden's son by pouring poisen into his meal, adding the sentence "And you always do what you're told, don't you, worm?" or something like this.
Grima, enraged, grabs a knife, cuts Saruman's throat and kicks him over the balcony of Orthanc onto a spiked wheel. Then, Legolas grabs an arrow and shoots Grima.

Now, this is only the scene. But the consequences are important:
after this event, Pippin develops a strange affection to the Palantir and once at night, he steals it from Gandalf and looks into it. Sauron sees Pippin, thinking he's the Halfling with the ring, captured in Isengart (you know from FOTR that Uruk-Hai were sent out to look for "two halflings"). Sauron sends a winged Nazgul to Isengart to look how things are going. The Nazgul discovers the devastated Isengart, brings this news to Sauron, who, obviously in panic, sends his army earlier than planned to Minas Tirith, which is a factor why the city won't fall later on (oops, spoiler...).
However, Pippin screams after he faced the pure evil and Gandalf takes care of him. He begins to understand that Sauron believes now that Pippin is the ringbearer and rides with him to Minas Tirith because that is the safest place at that time in Middle-Earth. He also has in mind that Pippin can tell Denethor, stewart of Gondor, about his dead son Boromir.

Gandalf hands the Palantir to Aragorn, who is the rightful owner of it (due to the line of kings or whatever; don't ask me about THIS ).
He also looks into the stone and after a long mental fight, he is able to regain the power over the stone. Remember one scene from the first teaser of ROTK, where Aragorn says "He remained unchallenged long enough" ?
The fact that Aragorn, Isildur's heir, the heir of the one man who destroyed Sauron once, reveals himself to Sauron, drives him into even more panic.
The consequence is that Sauron focuses his eye even more on the other lands instead of his own, which gives Frodo a higher chance.


A bit compicated, isn't it?

Hope this helps.

[Loomis]

Thanks, gk. Looks like there may have been some strange goings-on at New Line.

[gkgyver]

"Yes, I'd be interested in reading more of your thoughts, gk, not only on ROTK but also on the LOTR trilogy as a whole."

If Jackson thinks he has to do some changes, well, so be it.
If it comes to adapting a particular scene for the big screen, my opinion is this: do it right or don't do it at all.
FOTR, especially the SEE, did a darn good job, with authentic dialogues and sets with microscopic details. That the old forest and Tom Bombadil got kicked completely is understandable, since it really has nothing to do at all with Frodo's journey.
TTT, well, some of you might think I'm crazy, but I really think it suffers from the running time. Three hours were not enough, even though they packed the departure of Boromir into the first movie (which actually takes place in book two).
The movie really needed time to breathe at some points. PJ says on the SEE of TTT that at some point he didn't believe anymore that he could bring TTT ever into an acceptable form and I believe him.
Then the changes. They're way heavier than in movie one. I understand the addition of Arwen, since she's important for ROTK and the whole thing reveals alot about Aragorn's motivations.

I can write a little bit about the most significant changes and additions, but since I have to leave now, I guess I'll "Write Another Day".

[gkgyver]

Ok then, let's go.

I'll divide the changes into three paragraphs, following the three parallel-storylines.
Looking at TTT as a whole, I have to say that the dialogues are far less authentic than in FOTR.

The Road of the Ringbearer: Some huge changes here. It is alright until they get to the Dead Marshes. Frodo falls into the water. Well, yes, great. I have explanations for most of the changes and additions, but not for this one. Sorry.
Then, the appearance of the Nazgul on its fell beast gets a bit over-the-top. I have to say now that THE ONLY TIME Frodo has a face-to-face confrontation with a ringwraith in the books is in book 1 on the Weathertop. Nothing before that, nothing after that.
I suppose this change wants to show us how badly Frodo got wounded and how this wound helps "them" to break his will.
Then the arrival at the Black Gates of Mordor. The troop of Eastlings that walks into Mordor is straight from the book btw.
The fall of Sam, on the other hand, is not. Raises the dramatic tension ... not too far away from the book. Also not too close to it, though.
Then the tension between Frodo and Sam about Gollum. This is another big change. The rows between the two tears Tolkien's ideal of true friendship completely apart. Yes, it's great they show us something about Frodo's affection to Sm

[Blue Eyes]

Originally posted by gkgyver
Then the arrival at the Black Gates of Mordor. The troop of Eastlings that walks into Mordor is straight from the book btw.

gkgyver, can you tell me something here, are the Eastlings meant to be female? I'm not sure if it's the heavy eyeliner, but the two who walk over near Frodo and Sam always seem to me to be women.

[gkgyver]

Erm, no, they're not. I suppose it's the heavy make-up
Tolkien would have never led an army of women into battle. Eowyn is really the only one who ... well, let's avoid spoilers, ok?
Though, Jackson decided to hide the faces of the Eastlings a little more, so they look not too human when they get killed. A rating-decision, I suppose.


However, let's get to Merry and Pippin's part of TTT (a part that has been cut heeeeavily).
Like with the other two storylines, this one starts out alright, but then goes downhill (concerning the heaviness of the changes).
It all starts with the Orc-slaughter-scene at the borders of Fangorn. Btw, it is nice that PJ made a little hommage to the Old Forest and Old Man Willow from book 1; but this is not the point.
The point is that the point of the whole scene got cut out (yes, it is on the SEE, but I'm talking about the theatrical version).
Originally, the Orcs from Mordor and the Uruks from Isengart (a distinction not made in the movie) had a hefty discussion about the Hobbits; some say they are unnecessary weight, some say that they have "some weapon" "he" needs for the war. The orcs thought the two have the ring. Now, either Merry or Pippin (can't remember) plays a dangerous game and says to one orc that he would give him the ring if he'd let them go.
However, it still ends with the charge of the Rohirrim (in the book too).
Well, then we go into Fangorn forest. That the two hobbits are chased by some orc is merely an addition and help to introduce Treebeard a little bit quicker. In the book, Merry and Pippin talk a bit about what to do and climb Treebeard's rock in order to get an overview over the forest. One of the two says "I almost thought I like this forest" or something like that. Then Treebeard appears and catches them. He says he would have stomped them if one of the hobbits hadn't said this sentence. All in all, he, exactly like Faramir, is presented to us in the movie in a lot more menacing way.
The character of the Ents makes a 180

[Jaelle]

Gk, I'm thoroughly enjoying your posts comparing the books and the films. I esp. want to chime in and agree with your comments on Treebeard. I was so looking forward to seeing Treebeard in TTT but was quite disappointed in him. He's much more of a wimp in the film than in the books.

Back to the subject at hand.... I did want to add a little comment about the overall narrative importance of the scene that Jackson has cut. While I understand Jackson's point of view, I can't help but wish the scene could've been kept in. One of the most memorable moments in the first film is the fight between Gandalf and Saruman, which Gandalf lost, tho he did escape. But the result of that fight was that Saruman remained as head of the order of Wizards, and kept his power.

The scene that Jackson has cut returns to this important conflict in the story, and resolves it. A final confrontation between the two powerful wizards, this time with Gandalf asserting himself as the White.

Watching this final battle between Gandalf and Saruman on the *big screen* would've been wonderful to see! It just won't have the same impact on the small screen. Gandalf and Aragorn are my two favorite characters and we saw precious little of Gandalf in the Two Towers. So this cut also affects Gandalf, not just Saruman. The battle between the two wizards in the first film is a major sequence. I think that general audiences who don't buy the extended dvds (and haven't read the books) but who have followed Jackson's trilogy since the first film would've appreciated seeing the two wizards conclude their own conflict in a battle to the finish. Here's a little piece from Empire magazine about the whole fracas.


http://www.empireonl....asp?story=5163

Saruman Snipped
13/11/2003

Rumblings can be heard far and wide among Tolkien fans this morning after news was leaked that Saruman the White will not be making an appearance in Return of the King. The climactic battle between Gandalf and Saruman, which was held over from the end of The Two Towers, has fallen to the cutting room floor - a decision that has left many people, including Lee himself, more than a little disappointed.

"Of course I am very shocked, that's all I can say," Lee told ITV's This Morning. "If you want to know why you would have to ask the company New Line or director Peter Jackson and his associates because I still don't really know why."

The scene in question is a seven-minute showdown between Gandalf and his former mentor amid the ruins of Isengard. A grudge match if ever there were one, this magic-fuelled set-to lets the two wizards finish what they started during their duel in the first film. The battle also has some far-reaching plot implications (involving the palantir), which will likely be excised from the film as well.

Some fans have, for the first time, been prompted to question Peter Jackson's judgment in this regard but all we can is: has the man let you down so far? We're sure Jackson knows what he's doing and, disappointed as you doubtless are, do bear in mind that you'll almost certainly be able to see the duel in all its apocalyptic glory when the eventual Extended Edition comes to DVD.

[Matt O'S oo4]

awesome as usual Jaelle!

Thanks for the ocntact!

I will do this immediately.

004

[gkgyver]

Thank you for the flowers

I just finished watching the extended cut, and the fact that the conflict between Gandalf and Saruman gets build up even more on it, makes this cut more questionable than ever.

However, just let me write shortly about the last storyline.
The three hunters ... many changes and even more material from the book that didn't make it onto the big screen. I'll try to list the most important ones.
All in all, I have to say that the events until they meet Gandalf in Fangorn fly past like nothing. Huge change of pace here compared to the book. Eomer stands in the same line with Faramir and Treebeard. Alot more aggressive than Tolkien's description.
On the plus side, his first encounter with Aragorn and Co. is close to the book and he even hints at a scene in the book by saying "The white wizard ... appears here and there ... as an old man, hooded and cloaked"; because in the book, one night, as the three are resting, an old man in white clothes suddenly appears and disappears the very next second. Shortly after that, they recognise that the horses were chased away. When they met Gandalf, he says that it wasn't him they saw.
But after calling for Shadowfax, the two missing horses come with him.

Ok, getting too far away now...
Now, we got stuck with Eomer. To make it short, he doesn't get banished at all in the book. He merely gets locked away because he tried to kill Grima in Meduseld (he had enough of Grima's "affection" to Eowyn, Eomer's sister).
Then who gets banished you ask? No one. It's not Eomer who comes to the rescue at Helms Deep. Eomer rides with Theoden to the fortress.
It's Erkenbrandt (if anyone can tell me which rank he has, I'd be grateful). Ok, Gandalf rides with Theoden to Helms Deep for about half of the way, but then he goes away to look for Erkenbrandt and his company (which the reader doesn't know yet btw).
I also have to add that there's no Warg attack or some silly "death"-scene of Aragorn. but I must say that his death was shot to give us a reason why Theoden knows about Saruman's army. In the book, some rider brings news about this to the king.
And Arwen isn't even mentioned once in the book.
Arwen reminds me of the Elvish army. It's not in the book. Actually, it was there to introduce Arwen to Helms Deep. Really, believe me, no joke. She was supposed to bring Aragorn the reforged Narsil. Her scenes GOT SHOT, but afterwards PJ decided to cut her scenes out for sparing us the worst nightmare a fan could ever come up with.
But you can still see a glimpse of her: after Gandalf joins battle, in these short sequences, you can see a rider on a white horse with a light-purple dress. That's her.

Also, Wormtongue doesn't ride straight to Isengart. As I understood it, he tells the Uruk-Hai troops about Theoden's plan and then rides back to Saruman.
Then the Helms Deep battle starts, and ends with the above mentioned Huorns and Erkenbrandt.

Well, where to go next?
Ah yes, the portray of Rohan and especially king Theoden is another 180