21 replies to this topic

[Peter]

What do you think?

In the teaser of DAF, Bond is on a manhunt for Blofeld, he's driven to avenge Tracy's death (presumably), and only seems to relax when fake Blofeld is dead.

Therefore, were the years between 1969 and 1971 absolutely filled with only this one thought of vengenance? And if Bond were obsessed with the ghost of Tracy, would he have slept with other women during this period?

Later in DAF, he nearly sleeps with Plenty, and sleeps with Tiffany (as part of the job) with no noticable thoughts of hesitation. If it was his first time since Tracy, they should have made a bigger deal about it. But I think we'd all agree that the film scripts aren't that deep, and the producers were hoping we'd just forget about OHMSS.

We know Bond is a stud, so it's not that he couldn't find a girl, but I think he didn't between those two films.

So if you think he did sleep with other girls in this period, who were they? Or do you think it was a long dry spell (by his choice)?

[kevrichardson]

Bond is never with out the company of a female . Plus in the world of EON . "OHMSS" never happen . Look how long they kept the film hidden from public view .

[Loomis]

For me, there are two ways of "reading" DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER:

1. As a sequel to ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE.

2. As a film that totally ignores the events of OHMSS and is a sequel to Connery's previous outing, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE.

If you go by the second interpretation, Bond is not determined to avenge Tracy's murder, because Tracy never happened, he was never married. The reason he's after Blofeld is because Blofeld got away at the end of YOLT and is still on the loose and unpunished for all his previous crimes. This theory is given weight by the fact that Bond does not seem in mourning during DAF, and his parting shot to Blofeld in the opening scene is "Welcome to hell, Blofeld", not "That's for Tracy" or something similar.

But going by the first interpretation, I'd guess that there would have been no long period of celibacy for 007. There might have been a period during which he was too overcome by shock and grief to be interested in women, but I imagine that the character would have turned to sex relatively soon after being widowed as a way of numbing his pain. He'd have slept with plenty of girls, but wouldn't have felt he was being disloyal to Tracy's memory since Tracy was the only woman he'd ever loved, and all his sexual encounters after her, as well as his sexual encounters before her and during his courtship of her (note that he sleeps with the Piz Gloria patients while he's supposed to be staying faithful to Tracy, although you could argue that he had no choice as his work necessitated his sleeping with them) were purely physical, loveless matters.

[kevrichardson]

Loomis "OHMSS" is more in line with your second statement . As a sequel , DAF never mentions events from "OHMSS" . Tracy is never mentioned , there is no real reason given for Bond's hunt for Blofeld . Unless it's a continuation of "YOLT" . Which in hinesight may be a good enogh reason for EON . The next time "Tracy" is named in a Bond is in "TSWLM" . before that Bond/Moore has already had two adventures (LALD and TMWTGG) .

[Mr. Kidd]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
Loomis "OHMSS" is more in line with your second statement . As a sequel , DAF never mentions events from "OHMSS" . Tracy is never mentioned , there is no real reason given for Bond's hunt for Blofeld . Unless it's a continuation of "YOLT" . Which in hinesight may be a good enogh reason for EON . The next time "Tracy" is named in a Bond is in "TSWLM" . before that Bond/Moore has already had two adventures (LALD and TMWTGG) .

I think clearly his pursuit of Blofeld in the DAF teaser is to avenge Tracy's murder. At the time before the opening frames of DAF the
last image any film audience saw of Bond was of him caressing his
dead wife. I don't think anyone in a theatre watching DAF for the
first time would construe Bond's action as anything but revenge for
Tracy's death. Nonetheless, shame on the screenwriters for making
the whole business ambiguous.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Mr. Kidd

I think clearly his pursuit of Blofeld in the DAF teaser is to avenge Tracy's murder. At the time before the opening frames of DAF the
last image any film audience saw of Bond was of him caressing his
dead wife. I don't think anyone in a theatre watching DAF for the
first time would construe Bond's action as anything but revenge for
Tracy's death. Nonetheless, shame on the screenwriters for making
the whole business ambiguous.

DAF was a attempt to remove the memory of Lazenby from the series . Had Lazenby stayed with the Bond franchise . Then "DAF" would have been more focus on the death of Tracy . During "OHMSS" a debate rage about how to end the film. On a happy note or with the death of Tracy . Peter Hunt won that , with the final scene of Tracy murder at the hands of Blofeld . With the return of Connery in "DAF" the slate was wiped clean . So never in the entire film is there a mention of Tracy Bond .

[Turn]

An interesting topic. Many of Bond's conquests were a result of mixing business with pleasure, winning the bad girls to his side (although it didn't always work). That's why it's interesting when he just uses Marie's top to throttle her with without taking liberties, so it's hard to say, but Bond being Bond it seems hard to associate the word celibate with 007.

[Xenobia]

Folks...folks...maybe Sean didn't mention it, but surely you have not missed Roger Moore's Bond and Timothy Dalton's Bond making reference to being married to Tracy. In other words...OHMSS did happen in the eyes of the producers, and I believe Connery was out for revenge in the pretitles of DAF.

That being said...I don't think Bond would have a celibate week, let along a celibate year. :-D

Yes, it probably took him a long while to get over Tracy, but that doesn't mean he wasn't sleeping with women. He probably was, if only to somehow hurt her by saying, "OK, you died on me. Fine. Look me I can have any woman I want. I don't need you, so there."

Am I reading too much into this...probably. But hey, you did ask.

So my answer is no...Bond was not celibate between those years.

One more things....in the novels that Fleming wrote, DAF comes before OHMSS.

-- Xenobia

[freemo]

I agree with Loomis about the "two ways of reading it" and I actually think that that was done deliberatly. I mean the pretitles start off in Japan right ? One could pull out OHMSS from the YOLT-OHMSS-DAF trilogy and there's nothing in DAF to fully suggest that you've missed anything. But ofcourse there's nothing in DAF to fully suggest that OHMSS doesn't count either, although Moneypenny asking for a diamond ring is a bit on the insensitive side.

PS, I'm sure Bond got "better aquainted" with many a lady between OHMSS and DAF, he's not made of stone.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by freemo
I agree with Loomis about the "two ways of reading it" and I actually think that that was done deliberatly. I mean the pretitles start off in Japan right ?

Very good observation, freemo. I'd never thought of that before. But by opening with Bond beating information out of a Japanese guy in a traditional Japanese-style room, DAF does allow viewers to interprete it as picking up in Japan very shortly after the events of YOLT.

My guess it that the whole "two ways of looking it" thing was indeed deliberate, and done out of deference to Connery (and to those fans who thought he was the one and only true James Bond)*. I suppose that Connery wouldn't have wanted his Bond to have been encumbered by the grief of Lazenby's Bond, so to speak, and bringing Connery back to the series (albeit only for one final throw) was, among other things, something of an admission that Lazenby had been a one-off.

There's also the point that not directly mentioning 007's bereavement in the previous film would have been in keeping with what continues to be the series' unwritten policy of making each picture self-contained and not specifically a sequel to its predecessor (I'm pretty sure that references in Bond films to earlier adventures are few and always brief and subtle, and references to events of the film immediately preceding are virtually nonexistent).

Then again, if one does conclude that the Bond of DAF is the same guy who underwent the trials of OHMSS, Moneypenny's request for a diamond ring is indeed a little tactless!

Xenobia, an excellent point: "Yes, it probably took him a long while to get over Tracy, but that doesn't mean he wasn't sleeping with women. He probably was, if only to somehow hurt her by saying, "OK, you died on me. Fine. Look me I can have any woman I want. I don't need you, so there."" I suppose 007's longest period of celibacy coincided with his 14 months under lock and key in DIE ANOTHER DAY, although I wouldn't be surprised if he'd somehow managed to score with Scorpion Girl offscreen.



*For a similar example of this kind of thinking at work, see DIE HARD WITH A VENGEANCE (1995), in which there are plenty of references to the events of DIE HARD (1988). What is never once mentioned - rather oddly, one might think - is the fact that not only did John McClane singlehandedly foil a terrorist plot in a Los Angeles skyscraper in 1988, he also did the same thing at Washington's Dulles Airport in 1990. Note that the first and third DIE HARDs were directed by John McTiernan, while DIE HARD 2 (1990) was helmed by Renny Harlin.

[Johnson Galore]

Great thread. To re-iterate the earlier posts, I really think OHMSS was largely meant to be ignored in DAF for 2 reasons. 1. It was perceived as a financial failure at the time. (It wasn't, but perception is everything.) 2. Connery himself states that one of the reasons the role was frustrating to him was that he wasn't James Bond, he was Sean Connery. But, producers insisted on the billing "Sean Connery IS James Bond." So, the logic follows, "George Lazenby IS NOT James Bond." With time and a critical re-evalutation, OHMSS was considered not only part of the canon, but an important one. So, to re-visit OHMSS scenarios during Moore's and Dalton's films was perfectly acceptable. But, in 1971, bringing Connery back was seen as make or break and DAF was meant to be a return to the fun of GF. (The hope was to bring back the US box office, as well.) How much fun is Bond if he is mourning his wife?

[Blofeld's Cat]

I've always thought that the precredits to Diamonds Are Forever ended up satisfying both camps (intentionally or not); those who want to think it follows directly from You Only Live Twice, and those who want to believe that it follows from On Her Majesty's Secret Service. Neither camp is right or wrong, it's just a matter of preference.

As to his celibacy, I don't think Bond needs to seek sexual gratification all the time. I'd like to think that he is strong willed enough to abstain from such activities if he chooses to for any period of time.

I supose that most of his conquests occur whilst "on the job," in a manner of speaking (he seems a busy spy), so free time conquests are most likely not that "urgent" anyway.

[Bryce (003)]

Bond's celibate years?

Birth to age 16;)

[SirMiles83]

Bond not celibate during greiving:
YOLT (novel)-- Bond dealing with the death of Tracy and seeing different doctors, "-the hypnotist, whose basic message had been that he must go out and regain his manhood by having a woman. As if he hadn't tried that! The ones who told him to take it easy up the stairs. The ones who had asked him to take them to Paris. The ones who had inquired indifferently, "Feeling better now, dearie?"...And now he had thrown up the fifty guinea course after only half the treatment and had come to sit in this secluded garden before going back to his office ten minutes away across the park."
Although this might or might not have happened in the "film series Bond", this is how I think the true Bond would react to Tracy's death. In YOLT, he was in shambles.

[Xenobia]

Sir Miles...what you are mentioning from YOLT is what I was thinking of as well, as it was referenced in the Pearson "biography" of Bond.

I suppose Bond could be celibate when he wants to be, but I guess the question is...when would he want to be?

-- Xenobia

[Double-Oh-Zero]

Excellent question. I've always thought that just the pretitles of DAF were sort of meant to be a follow-up to OHMSS. Maybe it's just me, but the tone of voice and actions that Connery uses in those first few minutes sound pretty vengeful. Then again, maybe the Bond producers didn't want to make the entire film a follow-up to OHMSS, and possibly confuse audiences who didn't bother to see OHMSS. As for the celibate question, I'll bet Bond just got completely drunk a few days after Tracy's death and drowned his sorrows in vodka. Seriously though, I think the only reason Bond tends to sleep with women is (as mentioned before) when he's on a mission, or just long periods of time between assignments. I don't know how long exactly that period is, so this could mean he does it a lot. Although I'll bet he could go for awhile without a shag. In the novel Live and Let Die, Bond went for several days without a drink of alcohol, and he drastically cut bag on cigarettes, so anything's possible. However, this is the cinematic Bond, so it could vary.

[rafterman]

yeah, the pretitles do start in Japan, so it's almost like DAF follows directly on the heels of YOLT, not OHMSS....seems they did try to forget the events of the film, cause you could say Bond was searching for Blofeld after the volcano...to me Bond doesn't look like a man out for revenge over his wife....sure later on they mention Tracy, but not in this film..and no, he was not celibate..

[Peter]

Thanks for all your ideas.

You all have convinced my that Bond was not celibate in those years, but probably drowned his sorrows with drink and call girls. Perhaps an occaisional pick up.

However, I do not believe that having the vegenance in DAF start in Japan is a suggestion that OHMSS never happened, but a mere coincidence to start the film with an exotic flair. After all, the only two story arcs that have continued in the film series are the fact that Bond was married and his wife was murdered, and the pursuit of Blofeld. (OHMSS starts much the same way as DAF, Bond tracking down Blofeld from the last mission) In the novels, there is much more connecting material, e g , Bond is sent to Jamaica for the easy assignment in Dr. No after the disaster in FRWL, ditto end of YOLT and the beginning of TMWTGG. My point is, if they had made a choice to end OHMSS with Tracy's death, they're not going to ignore it the very next time we see Bond. As a few people suggested, the producers want the films to primarily stand alone.

As for girls in between missions, we know from literary Bond that he "visits 3 similarly disposed married women" when he's not on mission in London. (he also had a year long affair with Tiffany Case after the novel DAF, we learn in the next book) That's not been addressed in the films other than occaisional girlfriend Sylvia Trench and a seemingly on and off again relationship with the doctor in TWINE. It seems to me that he would only have very casual girlfriends or affairs because of his job, and now because Tracy's death makes him hesitant to get seriously involved again. But again, literary Bond has "big" missions 1-3 times a year, film Bond only every other year, so I've always assumed he has more missions than we know about. That's the weird thing about Bond always being set in the present!

[Simon]

Bond celibate??

He probably went on a drunken bender with call girls before planning a rape and pillage affair with Blofeld's daughter. Because he is (literary) a cruel b-----d or (filmic) in the guise of Connery who doesn't give a damn about what is politically correct.

Well, perhaps a tough response, but no, he wasn't celibate.

[Xenobia]

Simon I was with you until you used the word rape.

Bond is many things...but rape is one line he will never cross. He may be a cruel bas**** at times, but he is also always a gentleman. He will never force himself on a woman like that.

-- Xenobia

[Simon]

You're probably right - don't know what came over me.

For the average guy though, I am sure such and worse thoughts would come to mind following such a devastating loss. However the average guy would never have the mind set to put these thoughts into practice.

For Bond, maybe his experience would make him feel less accountable and afraid of the consequences - certainly the ability to disappear would stand him in good stead.

But, as said above, you are in all probability right.

Recently, I have experienced a few situations that have left me utterly powerless and impotent to effect either legal recourse or retribution. Thoughts go through ones head as to what one should have done at the time of the incident and also following the incident. Ultimately, I find I can do absolutely nothing. A very unsatisfactory state of mind to be in.

Maybe this will go some way to explaining the initial statement. It goes without saying that I think rape is one of few Ultimate crimes and thus far I find punishments meted out have fallen way short of where I think they should go.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Xenobia

Simon I was with you until you used the word rape.

Bond is many things...but rape is one line he will never cross.  He may be a cruel bas**** at times, but he is also always a gentleman.  He will never force himself on a woman like that.

Xen, not to be too pedantic, or to condone the crime of rape (as I'm sure Simon wasn't intending to do either), but isn't it only the cinematic Bond who's "always a gentleman"? I'm on pretty thin ice having read only some of the novels, I know, but doesn't "Fleming's Bond" wink at sexual assault at various points? There is, for example, all that neanderthal nonsense in Fleming about things like "all women love semi-rape" (the offensiveness of which may be compounded by the fact that Fleming was trying to put such thoughts across as coming from the pen of a woman), Darko Kerim keeping a naked woman chained underneath a table, etc. Indeed, doesn't even the cinematic 007 effectively force himself on Miss Taro in DR. NO?

Certainly, according to some schools of feminist thinking, there must be much that is thoroughly objectionable in both the literary and cinematic Bond adventures.

I'm not sure that what Simon wrote was "out of order" (as us Brits put it) in any way. The mention of the word "rape" does not amount to condoning it, surely?

If you think I'm expressing myself in a way that might lead to misinterpretation (in other words that I think rape is okay because I think James Bond would think it's okay), please let me know and feel free to delete this post.