Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

How does Licence to Kill stack up now?


38 replies to this topic

#31 hoagy

hoagy

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 230 posts

Posted 28 October 2016 - 01:45 AM

Alas, the Cruncher death was depicted onscreen 5 years after the death by similarly-operating machine in Indiana Jones and the Lost Crusade.  It was another disappointing example of the lack of originality in the film.

 

As for the Farewell to Arms scene between Bond and M at the Hemingway House in Key West -- the cats were an interesting nod to Blofeld, but, did it mean M was in Blofeld's place ?  No.  And the cats are rather unavoidable there.  Frankly, they missed an opportunity for an interesting Blofeld reference, though not by name, of course, due to rights issues at the time.  At any rate, for me the attempts to replace Bernard Lee's M, until they re-booted and brought in Dame Judi Dench, were, well, with all due respect to the actors and understanding they were in a thankless position, meh...And, in the end, "meh" is an apt response to the film.  The observations made that it appeared to be a "low budget" Bond are entirely apt.

 

As for Bond's relationships with women, by the way, Commander -- you might recall how the films presented the nice-guy Bond, Roger Moore, as "tough" when, for a while, they routinely had him slap a lady in the face ?  What the ?  And there's no calling it a "product of the times" -- it was awful, out of character, and transparent.  And he was slapping "good guys" -- not villains !  Even in the old b&w films of the 30s, slapping a lady in the face was depicted as a moment of horrible behavior by a bad person.



#32 David_M

David_M

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1064 posts
  • Location:Richmond VA

Posted 28 October 2016 - 12:54 PM

I found it interesting that the producers - at the time of LALD - took a look at a Jamaican sugar cane mill as a possible setting for some action scenes where Kananga throws Bond into the works. When Cain and Hamilton took a look at such a real device they decided it was too big and dangerous a set for use in their film; probably also because you had to use at least a degree of gore there. From what I gather the cocaine cruncher in LTK must have been pretty close to just this thing - and its only good use was of course just that degree of gore. It's not the most blatant example of violence-for-violence's-sake, but it's an indicator the film sidestepped into territory that wasn't by definition its natural habitat. 

 

 

That's an interesting way to phrase it -- "not it's natural habitat" -- and I think it encapsulates my trouble with the premise.  I understand that the "Bond formula" is at once a strength and weakness, and that you have to push things into a different direction now and then to keep it fresh, but LTK, to me, was more a case of just throwing Bond into another genre entirely.  MR gets grief for jumping on the "Star Wars" bandwagon, LALD is criticised for cashing in on the "Blaxploitation" craze, TMWTGG is called out for the Kung-Fu movie swipes.  I think it's only fair to criticize LTK for the same sort of copycat tactics, trying to emulate the "dirty t-shirt" action films of its era.  

 

And I agree with your point that it's interesting to note how each era's sensibilities affect the films.  Felix's fate from the novel would've run totally counter to the mood and intentions of 1973's LALD, but seemed to fill a need in 1989.  And stuff like the "death by grinder," Krest's head blowing up and shots of the dead Heller and Sharkey probably would've never even been on the table for a Bond film prior to LTK (certainly not in the 70s entries!).  The Bond films -- especially in Cubby's day -- were always about "giving the people what they want," so it's fascinating to look back and see what exactly people did want at various points in time.

 

 

 

As for the Farewell to Arms scene between Bond and M at the Hemingway House in Key West -- the cats were an interesting nod to Blofeld, but, did it mean M was in Blofeld's place ?  No.  And the cats are rather unavoidable there.  Frankly, they missed an opportunity for an interesting Blofeld reference, though not by name, of course, due to rights issues at the time.  At any rate, for me the attempts to replace Bernard Lee's M, until they re-booted and brought in Dame Judi Dench, were, well, with all due respect to the actors and understanding they were in a thankless position, meh...And, in the end, "meh" is an apt response to the film.  The observations made that it appeared to be a "low budget" Bond are entirely apt.

 

I have to say I had never considered the cats of the Hemingway House a "nod to Blofeld."  I thought they were just there because the Hemingway House is famous for them.  Sometimes a cat is just a cat.  Honestly, it wasn't until the Brosnan era that the series started being obsessed with "nods" and "tributes" and "homages" to earlier films -- a tradition that continues to varying degrees in the Craig entries.  I can't say it's been a good thing, overall.

 

 

 

As for Bond's relationships with women, by the way, Commander -- you might recall how the films presented the nice-guy Bond, Roger Moore, as "tough" when, for a while, they routinely had him slap a lady in the face ?  What the ?  And there's no calling it a "product of the times" -- it was awful, out of character, and transparent.  And he was slapping "good guys" -- not villains !  Even in the old b&w films of the 30s, slapping a lady in the face was depicted as a moment of horrible behavior by a bad person.

 

 

I only remember him slapping Andrea in TMWTGG, but that was bad enough.  It was an obvious attempt to "toughen up" Roger in the role, but it had the opposite effect.  No man looks tough when he's slapping a woman.  It's also out of character for Fleming's Bond to slap a woman, and it doesn't come off any better when Connery does it in FRWL.  And it's clearly a very un-Roger thing to do.  By the end of his run, Roger's Bond was almost TOO chivalrous and gentlemanly, risking his life for example to save Stacey and Octopussy by clinging to the outsides of aircraft, like some kind of knight in shining armor, but swinging to the opposite extreme isn't good, either. (It's hard to imagine Connery's Bond putting himself at similar risk to save a "stupid twit" like Tiffany Case, but at least he didn't punch her for switching those tapes!)

 

It can be hard to get Bond right when it comes to what's "too caddish."  Handing the naked Fiona a pair of shoes in TB was just right, I think.  Having sex with Miss Taro only to turn her over to the cops, or with Rosie Carver only to threaten her at gunpoint was also fun (if not very true to Fleming, in either case), but filling Solitaire's deck with "Lovers" cards was going too far, I think, and the kind of thing you'd expect in a "Porky's"-like sex comedy.

 

Overall, Dalton probably has the best track record of any of them when it comes to treating women well.



#33 S K Y F A L L

S K Y F A L L

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6889 posts
  • Location:CANADA

Posted 28 October 2016 - 04:52 PM

Its not ok to hit anyone, but it is sexist to not hit a woman simply because she is a woman. When Bond does it it is usually a good reason for it. In GF Pussy was about to kill 60 thousand people needlessly. In TMWTGG Bond's life was threatened. I can't recall who he slaps in FRWL but in DAF I believe he slaps a woman in-order to find Blofeld, a mass murderer. So IMO all slaps were justified.



#34 hoagy

hoagy

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 230 posts

Posted 28 October 2016 - 09:48 PM

Were there 8 cats shown in LTK ?  (I actually wrote "LR" at first)  If there were 8 cats then CLEARLY it was an homage to OP !!!



#35 hilly

hilly

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 813 posts
  • Location:Lost. Last seen Brass Rubbing in Brittany

Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:53 AM

Its not ok to hit anyone, but it is sexist to not hit a woman simply because she is a woman. When Bond does it it is usually a good reason for it. In GF Pussy was about to kill 60 thousand people needlessly. In TMWTGG Bond's life was threatened. I can't recall who he slaps in FRWL but in DAF I believe he slaps a woman in-order to find Blofeld, a mass murderer. So IMO all slaps were justified.

 

Sorry. but I don't agree. I don't think any of them were justified

He hits them all in order to get information. Nothing more. That moment is not a life or death one. In fact in DAF he's been lounging by a swimming pool before Tiffany shows up

He has a physical fight with Onatopp in GE, but even then he throws her about in order to escape from her (literal) clutches and hits her male assistants rather than actually striking her.



#36 S K Y F A L L

S K Y F A L L

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6889 posts
  • Location:CANADA

Posted 31 October 2016 - 06:47 PM

 

Its not ok to hit anyone, but it is sexist to not hit a woman simply because she is a woman. When Bond does it it is usually a good reason for it. In GF Pussy was about to kill 60 thousand people needlessly. In TMWTGG Bond's life was threatened. I can't recall who he slaps in FRWL but in DAF I believe he slaps a woman in-order to find Blofeld, a mass murderer. So IMO all slaps were justified.

 

Sorry. but I don't agree. I don't think any of them were justified

He hits them all in order to get information. Nothing more. That moment is not a life or death one. In fact in DAF he's been lounging by a swimming pool before Tiffany shows up

He has a physical fight with Onatopp in GE, but even then he throws her about in order to escape from her (literal) clutches and hits her male assistants rather than actually striking her.

 

 
 
That's fine, I'm normally wrong about a lot of things.
I'm still ok with the logic though, that Bond needs 'information' that leads to the whereabouts of cold blooded killers. 

 

 



#37 sharpshooter

sharpshooter

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 8996 posts

Posted 01 November 2016 - 09:08 AM

Bond is a cool guy and the definition of an alpha male, but he's not a role model. For me, that's part of what makes him so interesting. He can turn on the charm when required and also kill the enemy with brutal efficiency. He's a cold hearted man who lives a solitary life, enjoying life's pleasures because he could be dead tomorrow.

#38 David_M

David_M

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1064 posts
  • Location:Richmond VA

Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:35 PM

Trust me, I don't object to Bond hitting women out of any feminist leanings.  In fact, my reasoning may be the opposite: I think it's uncool because they're "just" girls.  

 

It's impressive when Bond wins out over a frighteningly tough killer like Red Grant, or a superhuman monster like Oddjob.  It's even cool when he pulls a "jerk" move like knocking Sandor off the roof.  And I don't mind him killing Xenia, who's a real threat.  But there is nothing at all impressive about slapping around civilians...let's call them non-combatants...like Tania or Andrea.  And when they're women, even less so.  I wouldn't have been impressed in the third grade if a boy beat up a girl, and I'm not any more impressed when it's grown-ups doing it.

 

The worst, for me, comes in TWINE, when Brosnan Bond shoots Elektra dead.  He's a trained assassin who knows a million ways to kill with or without weapons, she's...um...a manipulative liar.  He has an automatic sidearm, she has...um...a walkie-talkie.  Wow, quite the victory, there.  This moment is always held up as an example of how "cool" Bond is, but to me it just underscores his weakness and impotence compared to Elektra.  She's out-witted, outmanuevered and just in general made a fool of Bond for the whole movie, so he shoots her and "proves" his superiority in the end.  Besides not being an impressive "victory," this scene in my opinion makes Bond seem pretty small.



#39 sharpshooter

sharpshooter

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 8996 posts

Posted 02 November 2016 - 09:28 AM

Bond does have a lot of admirable qualities. Calm under intense pressure. Top of the class skills in weapons, combat and vehicles. He never gives up and always finds a way to win. But yeah. I don't aspire to be a killer looking over my shoulder every day, having a couple close acquaintances and ultimately dying alone. Bond works because he's a character who is frozen in time. He's the man of the moment. We never see him age and suffer the true consequences of his life. He would very likely end up like Fleming himself, if an assassin's bullet didn't catch up with him first.