162 replies to this topic

[Surrie]

Maybe he doesn't want to gloat at all, and would rather dispose of Bond asap. But Bond is proving more difficult to get rid of than he originally anticipated - so he might as well satisfy his ego, at least while Bond is still alive anywany. 

[tdalton]

Maybe.  I think the one thing we can agree on is that the script isn't particularly well-constructed.  Several issues like this that could have easily been avoided with a few lines of dialogue (or a complete rewrite of the first act of the film).

[Surrie]

Agreed. If the script was tightened then SPECTRE would be, IMO, a truly great Bond film. I'm torn between whether I want SPECTRE to leave Swann's character as we know her now or whether I want them to bring her back for Bond 25. 

 

If Craig stays on then I'd want her back - but only in a Tracy-like capacity I think...

[Guy Haines]

Agreed. If the script was tightened then SPECTRE would be, IMO, a truly great Bond film. I'm torn between whether I want SPECTRE to leave Swann's character as we know her now or whether I want them to bring her back for Bond 25. 
 
If Craig stays on then I'd want her back - but only in a Tracy-like capacity I think...

Provided the Tracy like capacity doesn't include a Tracy like end, I'm OK with that. Bond out of the service perhaps, but called back to the colours because Blofeld has escaped - Madeleine realising he can't escape his past or his fate - they part, sadder but wiser? Something on those lines?

Maybe.  I think the one thing we can agree on is that the script isn't particularly well-constructed.  Several issues like this that could have easily been avoided with a few lines of dialogue (or a complete rewrite of the first act of the film).

Bond needed some kind of link to get to Blofeld - but it didn't have to be the "Skyfall revisited" childhood link revealed. The "Pale King" clue leading to Mr White should have been sufficient. Blofeld could have remained in the shadows at the board meeting - none of this "cuckoo" stuff - and using White's knowledge Bond could have tracked Blofeld down, leading to a final meeting - and maybe more screen time - beginning with our villain saying those words; "Mr Bond, I've been expecting you. What took you so long? Allow me to introduce myself, I am........" (we know the rest! ;-) )

[Surrie]

 

Agreed. If the script was tightened then SPECTRE would be, IMO, a truly great Bond film. I'm torn between whether I want SPECTRE to leave Swann's character as we know her now or whether I want them to bring her back for Bond 25. 
 
If Craig stays on then I'd want her back - but only in a Tracy-like capacity I think...

Provided the Tracy like capacity doesn't include a Tracy like end, I'm OK with that. Bond out of the service perhaps, but called back to the colours because Blofeld has escaped - Madeleine realising he can't escape his past or his fate - they part, sadder but wiser? Something on those lines?

 

 

 

If EON could bring Craig and Seydoux back, turn Swann into a Tracy-like character then I would be pleased. They can either do as you suggested and have them part ways due to the danger being together poses OR they could allow Craig's Bond his happy ending by having Swann turn into a modern day Tracy and allow them to drive off after being married. Drawing a close to Craig's era and reflecting on the end of OHMSS, and flipping it over as Craig's films can stand alone on a different timeline/universe. 

 

The issue I can foresee with this is many "fans" will cry bloody murder by seeing Bond married because they aren't aware of the background and history as much as we are (the hardcore fans!!)... and I'm just not sure EON are risque enough to go through with that.

[Dustin]

It's strange, back in the days of OHMSS some critic actually believed Bond and Tracy could turn into a Nick-and-Nora couple and stay this way within the series.

If you look closer you realise that way would have been the road to disaster. In the book Bond lamely convinces himself Tracy would let him live his fast dangerous life. But the truth of it is after just a few years of his philandering they would have ended up not much better than the Masters from the Quantum of Solace short story. They'd hate each other to pieces and burn in their very own field office of Hell.

Blofeld actually did Bond a favour. And Tracy most likely too.

[Guy Haines]

Agreed. If the script was tightened then SPECTRE would be, IMO, a truly great Bond film. I'm torn between whether I want SPECTRE to leave Swann's character as we know her now or whether I want them to bring her back for Bond 25.

If Craig stays on then I'd want her back - but only in a Tracy-like capacity I think...

Provided the Tracy like capacity doesn't include a Tracy like end, I'm OK with that. Bond out of the service perhaps, but called back to the colours because Blofeld has escaped - Madeleine realising he can't escape his past or his fate - they part, sadder but wiser? Something on those lines?

If EON could bring Craig and Seydoux back, turn Swann into a Tracy-like character then I would be pleased. They can either do as you suggested and have them part ways due to the danger being together poses OR they could allow Craig's Bond his happy ending by having Swann turn into a modern day Tracy and allow them to drive off after being married. Drawing a close to Craig's era and reflecting on the end of OHMSS, and flipping it over as Craig's films can stand alone on a different timeline/universe.

The issue I can foresee with this is many "fans" will cry bloody murder by seeing Bond married because they aren't aware of the background and history as much as we are (the hardcore fans!!)... and I'm just not sure EON are risque enough to go through with that.

I'm OK with either ending you suggest. The one scenario I'd rather not see Bond put through again is losing his love through her death - been there, done that, got the bullet through the car window or the suicide by drowning.

Of course there's one scenario we haven't considered, in view of Dustin's post above in the past few minutes - Craig-Bond, Madeleine, the happy ever after ending of Bond 25..... and the messy divorce we learn about when the new man appears in Bond 26? ;-)

[Surrie]

 

 

 

Agreed. If the script was tightened then SPECTRE would be, IMO, a truly great Bond film. I'm torn between whether I want SPECTRE to leave Swann's character as we know her now or whether I want them to bring her back for Bond 25.

If Craig stays on then I'd want her back - but only in a Tracy-like capacity I think...

Provided the Tracy like capacity doesn't include a Tracy like end, I'm OK with that. Bond out of the service perhaps, but called back to the colours because Blofeld has escaped - Madeleine realising he can't escape his past or his fate - they part, sadder but wiser? Something on those lines?

If EON could bring Craig and Seydoux back, turn Swann into a Tracy-like character then I would be pleased. They can either do as you suggested and have them part ways due to the danger being together poses OR they could allow Craig's Bond his happy ending by having Swann turn into a modern day Tracy and allow them to drive off after being married. Drawing a close to Craig's era and reflecting on the end of OHMSS, and flipping it over as Craig's films can stand alone on a different timeline/universe.

The issue I can foresee with this is many "fans" will cry bloody murder by seeing Bond married because they aren't aware of the background and history as much as we are (the hardcore fans!!)... and I'm just not sure EON are risque enough to go through with that.

I'm OK with either ending you suggest. The one scenario I'd rather not see Bond put through again is losing his love through her death - been there, done that, got the bullet through the car window or the suicide by drowning.

Of course there's one scenario we haven't considered, in view of Dustin's post above in the past few minutes - Craig-Bond, Madeleine, the happy ever after ending of Bond 25..... and the messy divorce we learn about when the new man appears in Bond 26? ;-)

 

 

Even if separate - Bond can be happy knowing they both tried. Craig's era has been a mix of Bond wanting to be a double O agent and wanting to show a level of humanity. At least he would have tried in achieving a 'normal life', but it's just not meant to be for him.

 

I agree - I would not like to see him lose another lover by death!

[glidrose]

It's strange, back in the days of OHMSS some critic actually believed Bond and Tracy could turn into a Nick-and-Nora couple and stay this way within the series.

Pauline Kael, New Yorker: "Diana Rigg is a tall, amusing Mrs. Bond; it's a shame they kill her off (in a bad 'sincere' ending). A wife never hurt Nick Charles and the Bond figure is beginning to need all the help he can get."

If you look closer you realise that way would have been the road to disaster. In the book Bond lamely convinces himself Tracy would let him live his fast dangerous life. But the truth of it is after just a few years of his philandering they would have ended up not much better than the Masters from the Quantum of Solace short story. They'd hate each other to pieces and burn in their very own field office of Hell.

My thoughts exactly. I never believed the marriage could last.

Blofeld actually did Bond a favour. And Tracy most likely too.

Well, I wouldn't go that far.

[Dustin]

Let's call it a possibility...
Thanks for digging up Kael, her name escaped me momentarily.

[Surrie]

In terms of Lazenby's Bond, the marriage I think would not have worked. Back in 1969 Bond (in cinema at least) was still relatively fresh, and the audience I feel wouldn't have wanted to see such a big changed in Bond's life so early on in the series. However, now we are 6 James Bond actors through, and over 50 years later it could work. Especially considering Craig's era is on a completely different timeline from the rest of the franchise. 

[Guy Haines]

In terms of Lazenby's Bond, the marriage I think would not have worked. Back in 1969 Bond (in cinema at least) was still relatively fresh, and the audience I feel wouldn't have wanted to see such a big changed in Bond's life so early on in the series. However, now we are 6 James Bond actors through, and over 50 years later it could work. Especially considering Craig's era is on a completely different timeline from the rest of the franchise.

I find myself agreeing with both Dustin and you. Bond as a married man - probably the relationship would end in tears, even if the lady doesn't end up dead. Either his career - whatever it became after MI6 - or his way of life would have worked against domestic bliss.

But equally, he and the lady - be it Madeleine or whoever - would have had some happy times together, and would have tried. I'd like to think the parting was amicable - he can't escape his way of life and she doesn't want to be trapped in it with him.

(What has the world come to? He isn't even married yet and already we're plotting the divorce! ;-) )

[Surrie]

 

In terms of Lazenby's Bond, the marriage I think would not have worked. Back in 1969 Bond (in cinema at least) was still relatively fresh, and the audience I feel wouldn't have wanted to see such a big changed in Bond's life so early on in the series. However, now we are 6 James Bond actors through, and over 50 years later it could work. Especially considering Craig's era is on a completely different timeline from the rest of the franchise.

I find myself agreeing with both Dustin and you. Bond as a married man - probably the relationship would end in tears, even if the lady doesn't end up dead. Either his career - whatever it became after MI6 - or his way of life would have worked against domestic bliss.

But equally, he and the lady - be it Madeleine or whoever - would have had some happy times together, and would have tried. I'd like to think the parting was amicable - he can't escape his way of life and she doesn't want to be trapped in it with him.

(What has the world come to? He isn't even married yet and already we're plotting the divorce! ;-) )

 

 

Ever the pessimists! 

[Bucky]

I have always wanted a faithful adaptation of You Only Live Twice, but now may not be the best time since Vesper has been such a strong presence through Craig's run as Bond. I think they could let SPECTRE go for any more films that Craig does.

 

They could bring back SPECTRE in a manner somewhat similar to For Special Services for the next actor where there is a history for Bond and it is believed that the organization had been eliminated.

 

(Of course I would not complain if they decided to go the YOLT route for Craig's swan song. Although I would like to see Lea Seydoux put to better use beyond making an appearance only to get gunned in the opening.)

[Surrie]

(Of course I would not complain if they decided to go the YOLT route for Craig's swan song. Although I would like to see Lea Seydoux put to better use beyond making an appearance only to get gunned in the opening.)

 

I would be quite happy if they decided to do YOLT for Craig's final film - but I agree with the Seydoux part, she deserves more than to be knocked off in the PTS!

[seawolfnyy]

Honestly, I would be happy with Madeleine just disappearing completely. The love story was painfully forced and never felt like Bond/Tracy or Bond/Vesper. Let Madeleine go and find another girl for the next film. I would even prefer to see Vesper somehow managed to survive and appear in Bond 25 than to have Madeleine back.

[Surrie]

It was a shame that their relationship did become forced - the script did not do it justice as there was so, so much potential. I would be ok with Madeleine not returning again, but if EON did bring her back, it would have to be in a modern day Tracy role to make it worthwhile. 

 

As for the return of Vesper - now that would be a complete mind melter, which I wouldn't welcome. Somehow, I don't think EON would go down this route. By doing so, they would be undoing all of what they achieved in the Craig era. 

[tdalton]

I think Swann already is the modern-day Tracy, regardless of whether or not EON goes forward with her marrying Bond or not. She's very similar to Tracy in several regards, being the daughter of the leader of a criminal syndicate, showing no interest in Bond at the outset before falling for Bond, then riding off into the sunset with Bond at the end of the film (although OHMSS and SPECTRE end differently on this point).

It'll be interesting to see what EON does with Bond 25, since SPECTRE is somehow being painted as a disappointment even though it's the second-highest grossing Bond film of all-time. The last time the public was disappointed with a Bond film, they completely ignored its existence in the next film. Hopefully they don't do that again this time, as they really do need to address the ending of SPECTRE in the next one.

[Guy Haines]

It was a shame that their relationship did become forced - the script did not do it justice as there was so, so much potential. I would be ok with Madeleine not returning again, but if EON did bring her back, it would have to be in a modern day Tracy role to make it worthwhile. 
 
As for the return of Vesper - now that would be a complete mind melter, which I wouldn't welcome. Somehow, I don't think EON would go down this route. By doing so, they would be undoing all of what they achieved in the Craig era.

Return of Vesper? How? We saw Bond desperately trying to revive her near the end of CR, to no avail. As likely as Tracy Bond recovering from the fatal head wound she suffered in OHMSS. The film makers have purposely set up Madeleine Swann as the first woman Craig's Bond has "gone off happily into the sunset with". To what purpose we may well see in Bond 25.

[FlemingBond]

It's strange, back in the days of OHMSS some critic actually believed Bond and Tracy could turn into a Nick-and-Nora couple and stay this way within the series.

If you look closer you realise that way would have been the road to disaster. In the book Bond lamely convinces himself Tracy would let him live his fast dangerous life. But the truth of it is after just a few years of his philandering they would have ended up not much better than the Masters from the Quantum of Solace short story. They'd hate each other to pieces and burn in their very own field office of Hell.

Blofeld actually did Bond a favour. And Tracy most likely too.

 

 

 

i doubt she prefered death

Edited by FlemingBond, 13 December 2015 - 03:25 AM.

[Surrie]

Honestly, I would be happy with Madeleine just disappearing completely. The love story was painfully forced and never felt like Bond/Tracy or Bond/Vesper. Let Madeleine go and find another girl for the next film. I would even prefer to see Vesper somehow managed to survive and appear in Bond 25 than to have Madeleine back.

 

 

 

It was a shame that their relationship did become forced - the script did not do it justice as there was so, so much potential. I would be ok with Madeleine not returning again, but if EON did bring her back, it would have to be in a modern day Tracy role to make it worthwhile. 
 
As for the return of Vesper - now that would be a complete mind melter, which I wouldn't welcome. Somehow, I don't think EON would go down this route. By doing so, they would be undoing all of what they achieved in the Craig era.

Return of Vesper? How? We saw Bond desperately trying to revive her near the end of CR, to no avail. As likely as Tracy Bond recovering from the fatal head wound she suffered in OHMSS. The film makers have purposely set up Madeleine Swann as the first woman Craig's Bond has "gone off happily into the sunset with". To what purpose we may well see in Bond 25.

 

 

Sorry Guy was replying to seawolfnyy but didn't quote!

I think Swann already is the modern-day Tracy, regardless of whether or not EON goes forward with her marrying Bond or not. She's very similar to Tracy in several regards, being the daughter of the leader of a criminal syndicate, showing no interest in Bond at the outset before falling for Bond, then riding off into the sunset with Bond at the end of the film (although OHMSS and SPECTRE end differently on this point).

It'll be interesting to see what EON does with Bond 25, since SPECTRE is somehow being painted as a disappointment even though it's the second-highest grossing Bond film of all-time. The last time the public was disappointed with a Bond film, they completely ignored its existence in the next film. Hopefully they don't do that again this time, as they really do need to address the ending of SPECTRE in the next one.

 

I don't agree with most people when they claim SPECTRE was a disappointment - personally, I think it's the most accomplished Bond film of the last 20 years, and Craig's best outing so far... but that's just my opinion. 

[Professor Pi]

Honestly, I would be happy with Madeleine just disappearing completely. The love story was painfully forced and never felt like Bond/Tracy or Bond/Vesper. Let Madeleine go and find another girl for the next film. I would even prefer to see Vesper somehow managed to survive and appear in Bond 25 than to have Madeleine back.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, seawolfnyy, but I don't think you were advocating for the return of Vesper, just pointing out how much you'd rather not have Madeleine back.  I think that was the point of seawolfnyy's reply here.

 

 

It was a shame that their relationship did become forced - the script did not do it justice as there was so, so much potential. I would be ok with Madeleine not returning again, but if EON did bring her back, it would have to be in a modern day Tracy role to make it worthwhile. 
 
As for the return of Vesper - now that would be a complete mind melter, which I wouldn't welcome. Somehow, I don't think EON would go down this route. By doing so, they would be undoing all of what they achieved in the Craig era.

Return of Vesper? How? We saw Bond desperately trying to revive her near the end of CR, to no avail. As likely as Tracy Bond recovering from the fatal head wound she suffered in OHMSS. The film makers have purposely set up Madeleine Swann as the first woman Craig's Bond has "gone off happily into the sunset with". To what purpose we may well see in Bond 25.

 

 

If they bring anyone back, I'd want Camille (Babs has said this was a possibility once.)  But I don't think they'll do that either.

 

Madeleine's fate is probably already filmed (in case Lea can't come back or has contract/scheduling issues) and we will either see it in the next movie, or never at all (like Mr. White's deleted scene from QoS.)

 

If Craig comes back, I think they're doing the YOLT novel.  If not, then stand alone missions again (with or without Blofeld, he is a "tough man to kill", afterall.)

[tdalton]

 

 

I don't agree with most people when they claim SPECTRE was a disappointment - personally, I think it's the most accomplished Bond film of the last 20 years, and Craig's best outing so far... but that's just my opinion. 

 

 

I don't agree with them either, but once EON gets it into their mind that a Bond film is unpopular, good luck getting any acknowledgment out of them that the film does in fact exist.  The only time they'll acknowledge such a film is if they go out of their way to criticize it. 

[Surrie]

 

 

 

I don't agree with most people when they claim SPECTRE was a disappointment - personally, I think it's the most accomplished Bond film of the last 20 years, and Craig's best outing so far... but that's just my opinion. 

 

 

I don't agree with them either, but once EON gets it into their mind that a Bond film is unpopular, good luck getting any acknowledgment out of them that the film does in fact exist.  The only time they'll acknowledge such a film is if they go out of their way to criticize it. 

 

 

Let's hope they don't take the criticisms too hard, but instead focus on the fact that it's the 2nd largest grossing film in the franchise.

[seawolfnyy]

Well, Quantum of Solace was also the second highest grossing Bond film at the time.

[tdalton]

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with most people when they claim SPECTRE was a disappointment - personally, I think it's the most accomplished Bond film of the last 20 years, and Craig's best outing so far... but that's just my opinion. 

 

 

I don't agree with them either, but once EON gets it into their mind that a Bond film is unpopular, good luck getting any acknowledgment out of them that the film does in fact exist.  The only time they'll acknowledge such a film is if they go out of their way to criticize it. 

 

 

Let's hope they don't take the criticisms too hard, but instead focus on the fact that it's the 2nd largest grossing film in the franchise.

 

 

They won't.  They'll promote the next one by saying how they're fixing the mistake they made with SPECTRE.  This has usually been the party line for the current EON regime.  It happened each and every time during the Brosnan films, and GoldenEye even took the time to actually try to erase the Dalton films from the timeline.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

 

They won't.  They'll promote the next one by saying how they're fixing the mistake they made with SPECTRE.  This has usually been the party line for the current EON regime.  It happened each and every time during the Brosnan films, and GoldenEye even took the time to actually try to erase the Dalton films from the timeline.

 

 

You mean with the PTS set in 1986? Since GE's script was originally written with Dalton's Bond in mind, I interpreted it as having 006's "death" on a mission occurring between the events of AVTAK and TLD and retroactively see Dalton's moodiness and harder edge post-Moore-era take on the role during his 2 film tenure being his Bond's subconscious way of dealing with his guilt feelings over Trevelyan's alleged "death."

 

I think even the old EON regime did the so-called "fix the mistake of the previous film" routine, e.g., in DAF which basically seemed to ignore the events of OHMSS and plays more like a sequel to YOLT.

[Professor Pi]

I've always viewed DAF as a sequel to YOLT.  Weird that they ignore OHMSS with DAF and then make a wife joke in LALD, seriously acknowledge her in TSWLM, visualize her existence in FYEO, verbally refer to it in LTK, and then imply it in TWINE.  Finally, every effort is made in SPECTRE to remake OHMSS. 

[Odd Jobbies]

Is She Tracy... Yes (imo).

[Surrie]

Is She Tracy... Yes (imo).

 

Was she Tracy in SPECTRE or will she be Tracy in Bond 25... what do you think?