41 replies to this topic

[mttvolcano]

I had looked this up once before, and I heard the names of all the M characters, and Robert Brown beginning in the spy who loved me as Admiral Hargreaves becomes M. I can't remember the rest of his name though, the first I mean. But, I think it had an M.
However, is he a different character or just promoted in your opinion?

[seawolfnyy]

I think he was promoted after Miles Masservy retired. I think Masservy was retired after the death of Bernard Lee as a tribute to him.

[Double-0-Seven]

I've always just looked at him as a promoted Hargreaves rather than a recasting of Miles Messervy.

[David_M]

I don't believe Hargreaves' first name was ever mentioned.

Whether he's "promoted" to M is pretty much down to viewer choice. There's certainly precedents where one actor plays multiple roles in the series (Maud Adams, Charles Gray, Ed Bishop, Shane Rimmer, Joe Don Baker, etc) so you could just as easily interpret the "resemblance" as mere coincidence.

[marktmurphy]

It could be the same character if you want it to be. Is it likely the post would have two Admirals in a row? I don't know.

[mrevans]

I kind of assumed he was promoted. This wouldn't be against formula (Judy Dench clearly addressed as "the new M" in Goldeneye). Plus, I realize continuity in never a good argument when speaking about the Bond franchise, but the relationship between Bond and M is very different from beyond that point. Where with Lee there was a sense of professionalism but also dry fondness and respect. You could see father-son like moments through antagonism and common ground alike. Lee's M generally seemed to have more confidence and faith in Bond. From the introduction of Robert Brown's M on, and cemented in LTK, Bond and M's relationship seems to stop at professional and not go much farther.

Edited by mrevans, 13 November 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[David_M]

I kind of assumed he was promoted. This wouldn't be against formula (Judy Dench clearly addressed as "the new M" in Goldeneye).

Yes, but when M is suddenly wearing a skirt, you kind of have to acknowledge it in some way, don't you? :-) And since it happens *after* the Lee-to-Brown switch, it can't be cited as a precedent.

With Lee and Brown, it's just as likely they're playing the same guy. After all, the guy on the other side of the desk -- you know, the main character in the series -- has already changed faces three times by 1983, so why not a supporting player?

I'm not saying I don't like the idea of Hargreaves taking over, mind you, but there's really nothing in the scripts to support that conclusion.

[Walecs]

I had looked this up once before, and I heard the names of all the M characters, and Robert Brown beginning in the spy who loved me as Admiral Hargreaves becomes M. I can't remember the rest of his name though, the first I mean.

Did you hear Judi Dench's M name as well? I don't remember it to be ever revealed.

[Miles Miservy]

It never occured to me that M in Octopussy was the Adm. Hargreaves character from TSWLM. Makes perfect sense.

Edited by Miles Miservy, 13 November 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[doublenoughtspy]

There is zero film-based evidence that Admiral Hargreaves becomes the new M. Apparently the James Bond CD-Rom dossier does have an image collage that shows a shot of Brown from TSWLM in a collage of images about M - I'll have to check it out.

One bit of fan wank evidence that "proves" it isn't the same character - when the Robert Brown M is in naval uniform at the beginning of TLD - he is a lower rank Admiral than Hargreaves.

So he got demoted and then got promoted to the head of the secret service? That doesn't make sense.

While I understand the fan based "logic" of saying that Hargreaves and M are the same character - then you, by the same logic, should conclude that Henderson and Blofeld are the same person, Whitaker and Jack Wade are the same person, etc. etc. And God help you explaining people like Shane Rimmer and the others who have played numerous characters in multiple films.

I lean in the direction that Brown was playing the same M because he had the same secretary, the same office, and absolutely nothing was said about "The old regime", "Things are different now", "My predecessor" or anything of that ilk.

I understand the need to create continuity, but the film out now features Daniel with Pierce's M and Sean's DB5. Come on. THEY. DON'T. CARE. ABOUT. CONTINUITY.

[MajorB]

I always assumed that Brown's M was meant to be the same character. But since there's no definitive evidence either way, it's whichever one you choose to imagine. It's fiction, after all.

[Yellow Pinky]

I also always assumed Brown to be playing the same character as Bernard Lee. I suppose that could be wrong, but I never consciously linked Brown's Hargreaves as being promoted into the position. It is an interesting theory though, and very well may be the case.

[Gothamite]

There is zero film-based evidence that Admiral Hargreaves becomes the new M. Apparently the James Bond CD-Rom dossier does have an image collage that shows a shot of Brown from TSWLM in a collage of images about M - I'll have to check it out.

One bit of fan wank evidence that "proves" it isn't the same character - when the Robert Brown M is in naval uniform at the beginning of TLD - he is a lower rank Admiral than Hargreaves.

So he got demoted and then got promoted to the head of the secret service? That doesn't make sense.

The way I see it is that he's a promoted Admiral Hargreaves in the Moore era, but he's Miles Messervy again in the Dalton era.

I view all Bond eras as reboots, that make Bond younger and only retain certain elements of previous films (Tracy's death or a female M). This is the easiest way to watch them.

[Bill]

I always thought that Robert Brown was playing the same M as Robert Brown. I know the Interactive Dossier states that they are two different people, but I think it is fairly clear in John Gardner's novelization of Licence To Kill that Brown's M is Miles Messervy.

SKYFALL SPOILER follows:

Before seeing Skyfall, I would have argued until I was blue in the face that the first 20 films did have continuity, and with 2006's Casino Royale that continuity was erased. As a fan, I absolutey hated that idea. However, with the last two minutes of Skyfall, with the glorious reintroduction of Moneypenny, Q from earlier in the film, and the terrific reveal for all and intents and purposes, Bernard Lee's office, occupied by the new M who could be Bernard Lee (although I wish he was called Messervy) continuity is now reesatblished, as Sam Mendes succeeds in linking us back to Dr. No, which was his intention. I know it does not make sense--Bond meeting Leiter for the first time twice is just one example, but in an overall sense I think it works. For fans wishing to clearly distinguish the Craig films from the first 20, they still can, but that scene and the Aston Martin clearly from Goldfinger makes such a hard line between the two timelines much blurrier. Instead, we now have a Bond who could still be the same Bond that we have been seeing since 1962--and again, I am not pretending that that makes any sense, but by the same token it did not make sense that Bond met Blofeld for the first time back in 1967 and again in 1969.

Thus, at the end of the day, I think that Robert Brown could be playing Admiral Hargreaves or Miles Messervy as M--at the end of the day, it is all fiction. Yet it is all still Bond.

[marktmurphy]

Did you hear Judi Dench's M name as well? I don't remember it to be ever revealed.

It's revealed in Raymond Benson's The Facts of Death (1998) - Mrs Barbara Mawdsley.

Bleh- I hate that. Always feels like a name for an Englishwoman that an American guy would make up. I tend to ignore that.
Plus, I'm not even convinced that she doesn't play two different Ms

One bit of fan wank evidence that "proves" it isn't the same character - when the Robert Brown M is in naval uniform at the beginning of TLD - he is a lower rank Admiral than Hargreaves.

Is that right? That's interesting.

[doublenoughtspy]

One bit of fan wank evidence that "proves" it isn't the same character - when the Robert Brown M is in naval uniform at the beginning of TLD - he is a lower rank Admiral than Hargreaves.

Is that right? That's interesting.

Yes it is right.

Hargreaves is a Vice Admiral in TSWLM (Nato Code: OF8)

M in TLD is a Rear Admiral. (Nato Code: OF7)

And though he is wearing the summer uniform in YOLT, we can tell from his epaulettes that Bernard Lee's M is a Rear Admiral.

[Syndicate]

Isn't it was never really clear was Robert Brown's character Admiral Hargreaves from The Spy who Love Me promoted the role of M in the Octopussy, or it the same M as Bernard Lee's.

[larrythefatcat]

I always thought that Robert Brown was playing the same M as Robert Brown.

I concur...

[seawolfnyy]

Did you hear Judi Dench's M name as well? I don't remember it to be ever revealed.

It's revealed in Raymond Benson's The Facts of Death (1998) - Mrs Barbara Mawdsley.

Bleh- I hate that. Always feels like a name for an Englishwoman that an American guy would make up. I tend to ignore that.
Plus, I'm not even convinced that she doesn't play two different Ms

I agree that she plays two different characters between the Brozza films and the Craig films. Also, if you pay attention to Craig's lips in Casino Royale, the word he was going to say before M cuts him off does not start with B....(granted he could have been saying Mawdsley, but I highly doubt it.) I also don't consider the crapfest that Benson gave us to be canon. His works tended to be even more absurd than the Brosnan films.

[graric]

I always saw the relationships that he held with Moore and Dalton's as evidence that he was not the same M as Lee. That does not mean that he is necessarily Hargreaves (he could be an entirely new character with an unknown M) because while the other recast roles in the series tend to keep some core characteristics (Bond drinks, gets the women and has some sense of humour/ Moneypenny flirts with Bond) and fairly consistent relationships with the other characters, Brown's M viewed Bond as far less of a trusted agent that Lee's. The only trait they share is the job: while Lee's M would look the other way when Moneypenny helps Bond is his own private vendetta, Brown's M is kept entirely in the dark and is focusing all his energy on bringing Bond back by any means necessary.

[mrevans]

Same here. While I think its true that the filmmakers didn't intend them to be different, I've always seen it this way. This probably had more to do with the way actors chose to play the roles or their chemistry with one another.

[glidrose]

I understand and appreciate DNS's arguments. But I still prefer to think that Admiral Hargreaves has taken over as head of the service.

[Bill]

larrythefatcat:

All I can say is oops! I obviously meant to say I always thought that Robert Brown was playing the same M as Bernard Lee!

Sorry everybody!

[doublenoughtspy]

I understand and appreciate DNS's arguments. But I still prefer to think that Admiral Hargreaves has taken over as head of the service.

So I guess Sir Hilary Bray decided to forego the College of Arms and join the Royal Navy submarine service, since George Baker is in OHMSS and TSWLM, and Shane Rimmer's radar operator in YOLT also decides to join the US Navy submarine service.

It's just a Smörgåsbord of promotions in the Bond films.

People can believe whatever floats their boat (see what I did there?) but I find it odd to single out ONE case among the HUNDREDS of cases where the same actors have played different roles in the 50 year history of the Bond films and say "Hargreaves is the same person, the others, not so much."

I sure wish Robert Brown were still alive so we could ask him if he felt he was playing the same character.

I'll go the ultimate fan wank level for arugment's sake. The moroccan motorcylcist from TLD got so angry that Bond landed on his motorcycle after the magic carpet incident that he joined the Russian army so he could kill Bond. (Eddie Kidd played the motorcyclist in TLD and a Russian soldier in GE.) Oooh - how about Whitaker and Wade were twins in an orphanage that got seperated and adopted by two different couples.

[mrevans]

I understand and appreciate DNS's arguments. But I still prefer to think that Admiral Hargreaves has taken over as head of the service.

So I guess Sir Hilary Bray decided to forego the College of Arms and join the Royal Navy submarine service, since George Baker is in OHMSS and TSWLM, and Shane Rimmer's radar operator in YOLT also decides to join the US Navy submarine service.

It's just a Smörgåsbord of promotions in the Bond films.

People can believe whatever floats their boat (see what I did there?) but I find it odd to single out ONE case among the HUNDREDS of cases where the same actors have played different roles in the 50 year history of the Bond films and say "Hargreaves is the same person, the others, not so much."

I sure wish Robert Brown were still alive so we could ask him if he felt he was playing the same character.

I'll go the ultimate fan wank level for arugment's sake. The moroccan motorcylcist from TLD got so angry that Bond landed on his motorcycle after the magic carpet incident that he joined the Russian army so he could kill Bond. (Eddie Kidd played the motorcyclist in TLD and a Russian soldier in GE.) Oooh - how about Whitaker and Wade were twins in an orphanage that got seperated and adopted by two different couples.

I get what your saying but actors play characters. Each role they play is in the context of that particular film. Therefore, if you see a familiar face in multiple films playing a different character, it is not necessarily a proper jump to say they are the same character with promotion, legal name change, etc. I agree there.
But in that same vein, "M" is a title, not a proper name, just as Q is a title. while yet to be precedent, the series would go on to give another character this title in GE, in retrospect, making it still plausible within the universe. To be clear, I do not think this was the intention of the filmmakers at the time. They probably wanted to not address the change and just stick to formula. But at the same time i do not see any logical blockade to looking at it this way (that they are different Ms).

[Pussfeller]

All signs indicate that Brown-M is a promoted Hargreaves. It's certainly not a Whitaker/Wade situation, where the same actor is playing two irreconcilably different characters. Indeed, it requires a deliberate effort not to identify the two characters played by Brown as the same personage. Hargreaves and Brown-M are both high-ranking British crusty guys with a security clearance, both have the same gruff navy-man personality, the same sour attitude to Bond, and even the same mannerisms: Note the raised-eyebrow expression on the lines "They can totally undermine our western defence strategy" (TSWLM) and "He's gotta be stopped" (LTK). Intentionally or not, Brown is playing the same character.

[Miles Miservy]

larrythefatcat:

All I can say is oops! I obviously meant to say I always thought that Robert Brown was playing the same M as Bernard Lee!

Sorry everybody!

Well, it's certainly NOT as if Judi Dench could play the same M as Bernard Lee, is it?

[Pussfeller]

No. It's stated quite clearly that they prefer different kinds of liquor.

[glidrose]

All signs indicate that Brown-M is a promoted Hargreaves. It's certainly not a Whitaker/Wade situation, where the same actor is playing two irreconcilably different characters.

Well spoken, Pussfeller.

Now that I think about it the fact that Brown's M wears lower-ranking admiral's stripes than Hargreaves can be chalked up to yet another continuity error in a series famous for them.

So I guess Sir Hilary Bray decided to forego the College of Arms and join the Royal Navy submarine service, since George Baker is in OHMSS and TSWLM, and Shane Rimmer's radar operator in YOLT also decides to join the US Navy submarine service.

Nope, not at all.

I'll go the ultimate fan wank level for arugment's sake. The moroccan motorcylcist from TLD got so angry that Bond landed on his motorcycle after the magic carpet incident that he joined the Russian army so he could kill Bond. (Eddie Kidd played the motorcyclist in TLD and a Russian soldier in GE.) Oooh - how about Whitaker and Wade were twins in an orphanage that got seperated and adopted by two different couples.

Talk about reducing everything to the most extreme position. Get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Oops, you're a mod here? Um... your OHMSS book is fantastic!

Edited by glidrose, 16 November 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[doublenoughtspy]

All signs indicate that Brown-M is a promoted Hargreaves.

What "signs" are those? You must give me the name of your occulist. The signs I see say just the opposite.

1) Different, lower rank.
2) Octopussy publicity material says he's playing the same character as Bernard Lee (I don't have this in front of me but someone in a different thread stated this - I'll have to check. I don't suppose it says Miles Messervy - just M, but I'll have to see.)
3) No on screen or even in script reference that he was a "new" M.

Are Morenzy and Gogol the same person?