63 replies to this topic

[DogWalker]

I have been a huge bond fan all my life. I have followed the production of many Bonds throughout the years. I have these observations and criticisms to make.

This is clearly Barbara's James Bond now. She evidently had no interest in working with Brosnan and he was afforded little to no input. Now of course she has her model for which she can frame as she likes in Daniel Craig. In addition American's seem to be increasing in numbers where the power and decisions behind Bond.

There is no doubt the Craig era has increased the IQ level of Bond. The quality of the films has increased. This does not make a better Bond film.

I personally am starting to lose faith in the Bond films. Perhaps I am becoming more of an adult and have less time to sacrafice on a fictional character. Allow me to get to the point: In many of the Craig films I do no longer want to be James Bond. He is weighed down. I find it an illegitimate argument from the producers that they are making Bond more into Fleming's Bond. In the books Bond is fantastical. In addition after forty years of Bond in film that is for many who Bond is. Not the "Fleming" Bond they insist upon making him.

Craig is a fine actor and I see a lot of Bond in him in "Layer Cake" but for me he is not James Bond.

The worry is that by increasing the quality and altering the make-up of a Bond film they are turning a timeless character and franchise into a finite resource. Whilst I wanted Bond to be Bond I accepted Casino Royale because it established at the end Bond was Bond. Then of course it was deceptive, he wasn't actually Bond in Quantum of Solace. He was becoming Bond again. Then again in SkyFall the script may weirdly have him as an experienced Bond but it doesn't play like that. They only establish him at the end as Bond. Though after another minimum of two years wait for Bond 24 will he actually be Bond?! Or will they insist on giving him more trauma.

The Bourne comparisons are too numerous in SkyFall. From the running on the beach and drinking beer to the being shot on a bridge. What I found most alarming in SkyFall is that Bond repairs himself from his apparent death by drinking rather than using the charm and suaveness which of course is his shield. He does bed a woman but it is not quite Brosnan.

They refuse to use the Bond theme as they had done for the first forty years. They change the gunbarrel. Why are they so afraid of letting Bond be Bond.

I fear they have changed too much. Worse they have lost sight. You can kill something with too much thought.

[The Shark]

He does bed a woman but it is not quite Brosnan.

I believe Pierce was away filming, so Berenice was second choice.

[Simon]

Dear boy, you are of course entirely entitled to your opinion, and I celebrate that. (the entitlement, not necessarily your opinion though), however;

The Bourne comparisons are too numerous in SkyFall. From the running on the beach and drinking beer to the being shot on a bridge. What I found most alarming in SkyFall is that Bond repairs himself from his apparent death by drinking rather than using the charm and suaveness which of course is his shield.

I am not sure that running on a beach, which didn't happen in Skyfall, or drinking beer is an indication of anything comparative. As for drinking, from a purely Fleming origin, he was a drinking and drug using character, right from roughly page one of Casino Royale.

He does bed a woman but it is not quite Brosnan.

Did you really want to say this?

Allow me to get to the point:

Do you have one?

In many of the Craig films I do no longer want to be James Bond.

And again sir, did you really want to say this?

[JCRendle]

I have been a huge bond fan all my life. I have followed the production of many Bonds throughout the years. I have these observations and criticisms to make.

This is clearly Barbara's James Bond now. She evidently had no interest in working with Brosnan and he was afforded little to no input. Now of course she has her model for which she can frame as she likes in Daniel Craig. In addition American's seem to be increasing in numbers where the power and decisions behind Bond.

Americans have been involved with the Bond films for years, starting with American "Cubby" Broccoli and Richard Maibaum
the screenwriter for Dr. No. Harry Saltzman was Canadian.

Then again in SkyFall the script may weirdly have him as an experienced Bond but it doesn't play like that. They only establish him at the end as Bond.

The Bourne comparisons are too numerous in SkyFall. From the running on the beach

They refuse to use the Bond theme as they had done for the first forty years.

I disagree with all these points, and some don't read like you've seen the film at all. The Bond theme is used several times, and even when it isn't prominent it can still be heard threaded through the score. QoS often felt like a homage to the Bourne films, I could not say the same for Skyfall - If anything I'd say it's taken some hints from the Nolan Batman films and it's helped the direction of the film - it's not the first film and it won't be the last to take inspiration from nolan.

Bond films have always taken inspiration from what's popular at the time, just look at Moonraker at the hight of the sci-fi craze.

[PeteNeon]

I partly agree with what you've said. It's been 6 years now and Bond is "finally" Bond. I have enjoyed his Daniel Craig's films though and his interpretation of the character, but does irk me a bit how they have resisted the familiar trappings for so long.

If the two film story arc is going to happen, we're probably not going to get a Bond-by-numbers any time soon, which isn't a bad thing, but I would like the next Craig films to embrace the series' traditions in a bigger way than it did in Skyfall, which it seems, going by the ending, is what's going to happen.

IMO, the pre-titles should have had a really great classic Bond vibe, with proper use of the theme, especially when he adjusts his cufflinks, before he gets shot and has to (again) "become Bond."

[MkB]

Well, even though I don't agree, I can see where you're coming from.

I would really like to see a top-notch Bond, at the top of his professional efficiency. In the CR / QoS story arc, Bond made mistakes because he was a rookie. In SF, he makes mistakes because he's "damaged". It's about time we get a flamboyant Bond in the next one - but I presume that's the plan, given the SF ending.

[JimmyBond]

I'm not sure Craig is interested in playing the role if it's just going to be the infallible, perfect Bond.

[DogWalker]

Exactly. The opening was fine but nowhere near as powerful had it opened with the gunbarrel. It just seems odd that they have it at their disposal and refuse to utilize it properly. They seem to be apologetic for having what makes them better than their competitors and ashamed of using their unique selling points.

Forgive me I am exhausted but there is no denying there are a lot of comparisons in SkyFall with Bourne. In Bourne his girlfriend is assassinated and drives off a bridge into water. Bond falls into water apparently assassinated all be it by accident. Bond is in a beach hut messed up and feels betrayed just as Bourne did. In addition had they shot in India then I believe that is where Bourne hid out (Goa) in the second Bourne film.

I adore the final scene and hope they do revert back to Bond formula for the 24th Bond film. However and here is where my argument is strong they have apologized and contemporaized the Bond setting from CR. So if they revert back then by their own admission they are dated?!

Bond has adapted but he has always been his own man, it's own entity. Never ever until Craig has Bond tried to copy or is directly comparible with its competitors. Bond by remote as a forum member pointed out is incredibly irritating. Bond is the best. They send him when no one else can do the job. A lot of Skyfall could have been Mission Impossible.

The title sequence was awful...The one shot of the beautiful Bond girl was so much stronger than everything else. Everything new and "fresh". The third act was so far removed. It felt like a totally different franchise. It could have been any other film. It should have been any other film, actually.

They need to stop being ashamed of what they have and let Bond be Bond with the over the top Bond theme. Letting Bond get on with his job. I am not against contemporaizing Bond. In fact I am all for him having to seduce a male Bond boy and having half naked Bond men in the title sequence. But let Bond be Bond for god's sake.

[Vauxhall]

Never ever until Craig has Bond tried to copy or is directly comparible with its competitors.

If we accept that Bourne is the only credible competitor to Bond that we've ever had, that's surely an inevitability?

[DogWalker]

Who cares what Daniel Craig is interested in?! He seems to have far too much input into Bond. If he isn't interested in playing Bond as Bond then replace him. He seems to be constantly trying to turn Bond into a different character. Then have him go play another character in another film in another franchise.

A flamboyant Bond is Bond is what we want. These films take years to make and it irks me a great deal that we still have not got a proper James Bond movie. He is either damaged, a rookie, traumatized, ill equipped or going through some sort of bloody trauma. This is not the cinematic Bond. You cannot go for forty years with an infallible suave Bond then suddenly for a decade force onto us a different type of Bond and claim as the producers do that this is the real James Bond. It simply is not. Craig's Bond is diametric opposite to who cinematic Bond is.

I hope with the 24th Bond they do give us Bond gets his mission and is the infallible superhero of secret agents and is allowed to just get on with his damn job. I wont hold my breath. I am sure there is some new trauma he has yet to encounter. I can feel the American vibes creeping into the franchise.

Trust me when i say quality will kill the franchise. Constantly trying to make it complex, smart, too clever, new and fresh and foregoing the formula will kill it. There new Bond model does not work. How can they top SkyFall? How can they keep topping their films with a cast and production values like SkyFall? They had a formula that did not age and was timeless. They have changed that and they are going to find it increasingly difficult.

Silva was just Alec Trevelyan except Silva just wanted to Kill M rather than steal money and send London into a financial meltdown. They are the same character except Silva takes place in an emotional, complex melodrama. Where as Trevelyan existed in a true Bond world with big show pieces.

Bourne will run out of steam. It is telling a story. Bond never did tell a story. It is a series of set pieces and can go on forever. By trying to respond to Bourne and give it the biggest praise by mimmicking it they have told a story and in effect created a weakness in the franchise where there was none before.

[Pussfeller]

Trust me when i say quality will kill the franchise. Constantly trying to make it complex, smart, too clever, new and fresh and foregoing the formula will kill it. There new Bond model does not work. How can they top SkyFall? How can they keep topping their films with a cast and production values like SkyFall? They had a formula that did not age and was timeless. They have changed that and they are going to find it increasingly difficult.

No offense, but... Never mind. I can't think of a way to end that sentence.

[JimmyBond]

The formula seemed pretty worn out with the Brosnan films (as much as I liked them).

As for your other complaint, I heard the same thing when QoS came out, that quality is wrong for thsi franchise. And yet other people are complaining because Skyfall is too much like other Bond films and thus ruins the whole impact of the rebooted Bond.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Oh, and for the record, I care what Daniel Craig thinks. I think he's a terrific Bond and a powerful asset for the franchise.

[DogWalker]

and this obsession with Nolan from the world of filmmakers needs to end. The Dark Knight's entire third act did not belong to the first two acts and oh look at Skyfall's third act. The Dark Knight Rises is a rather poor film. This obsession with making characters designed to be fantasy dark and emotional back stories and trauma is fundamentally wrong. Sending Roger Moore into Space because Star Wars was successful is very different to making Roger Moore's Bond more grumpy and difficult because Harrison Ford's Han Solo character worked and was successful with audiences.

[Tony_OO_Black]

So you want Die Another Day again, basically?

That won't kill the franchise at all. No, sir.

[DogWalker]

Guys if Bond does not get back on track and give us this fantasy another new character will come along and take Bonds mantle. If Bond as with a lot of recent films continues to be dark and complex and emotional then something "new and fresh" will come along and people will gravitate to it.

[Tony_OO_Black]

You seem to be under the impression the masses don't want to watch a Bond movie with well written drama, characterisation AND action. Go see the Skyfall box office receipts in a month and then tell us people don't want this kind of movie.

[DogWalker]

I happen to think Die Another Day is one of the best bond films up until the second part of Iceland and the tacked on plane ending. Most people wouid agree its a great film up until this point. Then it becomes too American. At least in DAD you wanted to be Bond. It made me walk through a hotel wanting to be like Bond. The suaveness, the sophistication, the glamour. I have sat on a remote beach drinking beer and feeling depressed, I have slept with people in beach huts just like Craig's Bond. i can do a lot of what Craigs Bond has done. I cant do what brosnan;s Bond did.

I am not saying people do not want this kind of movie. I imagine SkyFall will be the highest grossing but then again so was Die Another Day. I just want my Bond movies to feel like true Bond movies and not be ashamed of their USP's.

[JimmyBond]

Guys if Bond does not get back on track and give us this fantasy another new character will come along and take Bonds mantle. If Bond as with a lot of recent films continues to be dark and complex and emotional then something "new and fresh" will come along and people will gravitate to it.

And if that ever happens, the producers will regroup and remake Bond to be more successful. They've done it when Bourne came around, they did it in the 80s (though many people will say that wasn't successful ). But from all accounts, this seems to be the type of Bond film people want at the moment.

Personally, I love the direction Bond is going into, it's such a breath of fresh air after Brosnan's films teased us but never fully delivered.

[Tony_OO_Black]

Can you free run up a crane and break into an African embassy? Can you fly a bi-plane practically into the atmosphere, sky dive out of it and survive the landing? Can you play high stakes baccarat and win millions of dollars?

If you can, that's awesome.

[THX-007]

There are a lot of comparsions beween the newer Bond films and the Bourne films and with good reasons. In the early 2000's you had two spy films based on characters created by two well known novelists. When Bourne Identity came out it was a fresh and gritty take on the spy genre while DAD came out it was...bad. Comparing the two, DAD is the one that's wearing the clown shoes. So I had no problem with the Bond series looking to match the Bourne series except for the shaky camera and the quick edits. The problem with the Bond was that after Goldeneye the producers seemingly didn't want to take any risks or explore new concepts. Brosnan's era fell to being by the book standard action films.

I find it an illegitimate argument from the producers that they are making Bond more into Fleming's Bond. In the books Bond is fantastical. In addition after forty years of Bond in film that is for many who Bond is. Not the "Fleming" Bond they insist upon making him.

The problem with that arguement is back in the 1980s audiences and critics were growing tired of Roger Moore and his fantasical films. Despite Moonraker being a big hit I think many were rolling their eyes with the concept of Bond in space so the more down to earth For Your Eyes Only was necessary. The move into Casino Royale is something that has happened over the course of the series. The films get too fantasical that they have to brought back down to (sometimes literally) Earth. YOLT > OHMSS. MR > FYEO. AVTAK > TLD & LTK. DAD > CR.
Not everyone is a fan of the fantasical Bond film and these days you can find fantasical in other films. And given the overwhelming reception CR got compared to what DAD got, I think audience do want to see a more darker take on the character. Also there's the change in the political climate. Terrorist are a lot more frighting that some crazed rich guy in an unecessarily large lair who wants WOLRD DOMINATION... same old dream.
Also certain classic or traditional traits of the Bond series don't work with certain actors. For instance having Dalton or Craig be in a Roger Moore type movie and have do the things Moore wouldn't have worked. Its quite clear that Dalton wasn't really comfortable with the traditional Bond quips nor was he was willing to go to bed with a lot of women. Sadly these were the reasons why some many critics of the time bashed Dalton's performance because he was *gasp* doing something different with the character.

*edit*

A flamboyant Bond is Bond is what we want. These films take years to make and it irks me a great deal that we still have not got a proper James Bond movie. He is either damaged, a rookie, traumatized, ill equipped or going through some sort of bloody trauma. This is not the cinematic Bond. You cannot go for forty years with an infallible suave Bond then suddenly for a decade force onto us a different type of Bond and claim as the producers do that this is the real James Bond. It simply is not.

Oh boy. Where to start?

A flamboyant Bond is Bond is what we want.

Not me.

He is either damaged, a rookie, traumatized, ill equipped or going through some sort of bloody trauma.

In my opinion some of Bond's best moments are where he shows actual character.

claim as the producers do that this is the real James Bond.

Where have producers said this is the "real James Bond." They've probably said this is a new James Bond or Fleming's Bond. If they said this is the "real James Bond" and that would be insulting to all of the former actors which they wouldn't do.

You cannot go for forty years with an infallible suave Bond then suddenly for a decade force onto us a different type of Bond

They have changed Bond over the years. After Connery set the stage we got: Lazenby: the more emotional Bond, first time the character of Bond has really been explored. Moore: the dandy Bond, not as tough as previous Bonds but charming and good at the quips. Dalton: Fleming's Bond, serious, always job first. Brosnan: I like to call him Safe Bond, didn't do anything new but was a universal image of movie going audiences had of Bond, drinks martinis, one liners, beds woman, shoots people and thats it. No other difining personality traits.

At least in DAD you wanted to be Bond.

I wanted the movie to be over.

and this obsession with Nolan from the world of filmmakers needs to end. This obsession with making characters designed to be fantasy dark and emotional back stories and trauma is fundamentally wrong.

In terms of Batman, Batman was created to be a gothic character. He became who he is because his parents were murdered. When the 89 Burton film appeared it re-established Batman as a dark, gothic character as opposed to the tongue-in-cheek Adam West TV series. Its a good thing Nolan came around with his three films because, whether you like the Nolan films or not, before that we were left with Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin which was a fantasical film that has gone down as one of the worst movies of all time.
And there's Bond, sure the situations in Fleming's novels were fantasical but the character was a cold, complex spy / assassin.

Edited by THX-007, 28 October 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[Pussfeller]

Nice effort, "DogWalker". I was fooled until this part:

I happen to think Die Another Day is one of the best bond films up until the second part of Iceland and the tacked on plane ending. Most people wouid agree its a great film up until this point. Then it becomes too American.

If you're going to punk people, you have to be subtle. Nobody thinks DAD is one of the best films ever - not even the people who like it. But I salute your sense of mischief. It was especially clever to include those digs against Americans. We can usually be counted on to take the bait.

[DogWalker]

I absolutely agree than when Bond is too fantastical they return him to Earth but I felt CR strayed a little too far from the character. Even if I was wrong he certainly should have been back to being Bond in the follow up to Casino Royale. Two films later and I am still waiting. That is why as fantastic as Dalton was ultimately he was not right for the character. Just as Craig is not. People say he is an incredible actor (although one just has to cry and be all emotional) to be a fantastic actor these days. Back to the point would Craig really be that successful without Bond?! Look at Clive Owen he is all but forgotten as a leading man these days. Craig's non-bond films often fall flat.

To be honest have as much melodrama and emotional back story as you want but let Bond react in a Bond way.

[MkB]

Not everyone is a fan of the fantasical Bond film and these days you can find fantasical in other films. And given the overwhelming reception CR got compared to what DAD got, I think audience do want to see a more darker take on the character. Also there's the change in the political climate. Terrorist are a lot more frighting that some crazed rich guy in an unecessarily large lair who wants WOLRD DOMINATION... same old dream.

Well... it's not mutually exclusive, is it?


Joking aside, I'm not for the supernatural Bond at all. I'm even complaining about some OTT things in Skyfall (like the fall from the bridge, that could not be survived in real life, shot or not). I'd just like to see the multidimensional CraigBond finally at the top of his trade.

[Pussfeller]

And you should create the account at least a week in advance. It's less obvious that way.

[DogWalker]

What is less obvious exactly? Are you paranoid?

[Pussfeller]

What do you think about Bond being officially confirmed as bisexual? I heard that was Barbara's idea.

[DogWalker]

Fantastic if he is.

They should introduce Bond men tbh

[THX-007]

That is why as fantastic as Dalton was ultimately he was not right for the character. Just as Craig is not.

Well Dalton is my favorite Bond and I think he was perfectly right for the character. The character created by Ian Fleming, you know that guy whose name appears in the credits. I don't know why you think Dalton's wasn't right for the character when he's driving a rocket powered Aston Martin.
So to be James Bond by you definition he has to sleep with a ton of women, always strut into a room wearing a tux, always have a funny quip or one liner, and never show any emotion or have semblence of character.

[jamie00007]

The Bourne comparisons are too numerous in SkyFall. From the running on the beach and drinking beer to the being shot on a bridge.

Yeah and in one scene Bond used a gun. Bourne comparison!

Come on.

[univex]

That is why as fantastic as Dalton was ultimately he was not right for the character. Just as Craig is not.

Claptrap you picked up while walking your dog´s bollocks. Dalton and Craig were the best thing to happen to the Bond franshise since the early 70s.

PS: Is that you Moomoo? If so, long time no see. If not, just the same old trolling around I suppose. Bloody conflict mongers. Craignotbond.com is still working, pay them a visit, they´ll be happy to entertain.

He does bed a woman but it is not quite Brosnan.

I believe Pierce was away filming, so Berenice was second choice.

Wonderfully done Shark.