55 replies to this topic

[Messervy]

And that's fine, I guess. My main problem with Bond smoking at this stage in history is that it would be anachronistic to the point of phony, like one of those latter-day Woody Allen protagonists who is twenty years old and a huge fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Tobacco-smoking has lost whatever stylish associations it once had. It's not an aspirational behavior indulged by suave rich people with big gay cigarette cases. Smoking these days is associated with the poor, dropouts, hicks, backwards foreigners, the tragically ironic, or (in the case of cigars) with geriatric machismo. The more elderly Bonds may have benefited from the prop, but Craig's Bond certainly isn't a vıagra-popper who needs to make a bold statement about his throwback masculinity.

Once again, I think you're mistaking your opinion for fact. You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I do repsect it. But it is nonetheless just your opinion, based on where you live and on the surrounding social percpetion of smoking. It seems you're from the US, so I guess there is indeed this view on things there. But please do take into account other possible perspectives. In other places, say Europe (save, perhaps, UK), smoking is absolutely not associated with everything you just described.

I'm not saying "smoking is good" as such and I'm not adverstising it (I don't smoke cigarettes, and smoke only 1 cigar every other week). I'm just saying it is not what some may think it is. "the poor, dropouts, hicks, backwards foreigners, the tragically ironic, or (in the case of cigars) with geriatric machismo"? Please! That's utter nonesense...

[Binyamin]

Yes- As Messervy says, smoking is still seen as "cool" in many parts of the world. How much time does Bond spend abroad?

On consideration, I genuinely believe that every French, German, Mexican, Chilean, and Honduran that I've ever met smoked. A surprising number of them are beautiful women. (Hate to see how they'll look in twenty years.) Many are from upper social classes in their respective countries.

Again -- In some corners of the globe, *not* smoking draws negative attention. You're viewed as a poindexter, similar to someone ordering virgin Shirley Temples while everyone else at the bar drinks bourbon. As M said above -- no, it's not "good," but it is reality.

[marktmurphy]

And that's fine, I guess. My main problem with Bond smoking at this stage in history is that it would be anachronistic to the point of phony, like one of those latter-day Woody Allen protagonists who is twenty years old and a huge fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Tobacco-smoking has lost whatever stylish associations it once had. It's not an aspirational behavior indulged by suave rich people with big gay cigarette cases. Smoking these days is associated with the poor, dropouts, hicks, backwards foreigners, the tragically ironic, or (in the case of cigars) with geriatric machismo. The more elderly Bonds may have benefited from the prop, but Craig's Bond certainly isn't a vıagra-popper who needs to make a bold statement about his throwback masculinity.

Once again, I think you're mistaking your opinion for fact. You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I do repsect it. But it is nonetheless just your opinion, based on where you live and on the surrounding social percpetion of smoking. It seems you're from the US, so I guess there is indeed this view on things there. But please do take into account other possible perspectives. In other places, say Europe (save, perhaps, UK), smoking is absolutely not associated with everything you just described.

In your opinion...

[Messervy]

And that's fine, I guess. My main problem with Bond smoking at this stage in history is that it would be anachronistic to the point of phony, like one of those latter-day Woody Allen protagonists who is twenty years old and a huge fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Tobacco-smoking has lost whatever stylish associations it once had. It's not an aspirational behavior indulged by suave rich people with big gay cigarette cases. Smoking these days is associated with the poor, dropouts, hicks, backwards foreigners, the tragically ironic, or (in the case of cigars) with geriatric machismo. The more elderly Bonds may have benefited from the prop, but Craig's Bond certainly isn't a vıagra-popper who needs to make a bold statement about his throwback masculinity.

Once again, I think you're mistaking your opinion for fact. You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I do repsect it. But it is nonetheless just your opinion, based on where you live and on the surrounding social percpetion of smoking. It seems you're from the US, so I guess there is indeed this view on things there. But please do take into account other possible perspectives. In other places, say Europe (save, perhaps, UK), smoking is absolutely not associated with everything you just described.

In your opinion...

Methinks

[Pussfeller]

Certainly, I'm not saying that any of those perceptions I mention are true. Personally, I have no beef with smoking, and I've enjoyed cigars, ganj, pistachio nuts... But on the one hand there's the uncomplicated enjoyment of a thing, and on the other hand there's the attachment of status and significance to that thing. This is arbitrary and illogical, and produces a constant arms race of changing tastes. Bond must always be on the vanguard of that arms race, even at the expense of former pleasures. His secret is to constantly find new frontiers of hedonistic excess, so that the audience is always panting to keep up with him.

[Binyamin]

Perhaps; But which NEW hedonistic pleasures has Craig-Bond found? That's part of the problem: Bond has abandoned several vices, but has never replaced them. The frontier has regressed, not advanced.

[Dustin]

Perhaps; But which NEW hedonistic pleasures has Craig-Bond found? That's part of the problem: Bond has abandoned several vices, but has never replaced them. The frontier has regressed, not advanced.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Keeping a vintage Aston is a vice in itself, and a damn hefty one, too. It's an indulgence every bit as ludicrous, selfish, unhealthy, dangerous and hedonistic as any - with the sole exception of heroin perhaps (I have no basis of comparison there).

Unfortunately it's also fun...

Edited by Dustin, 21 September 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Pussfeller]

I see where Binyamin is coming from, but I don't really agree. At least I think there are avenues open, even if the filmmakers have not yet committed to them.

I would argue that Craig-Bond is more physically reckless, which (if they choose to develop it) can become a very rich and distinctive quality to set him apart from his predecessors, and very much in line with Fleming. Physical exertion and danger is a major part of Fleming's concept of the Bond novels, and Craig is perhaps the purest distillation of that. It's a small step from physical courage to reckless thrill-seeking, and Craig-Bond is already skirting that line.

This Bond is also, especially in CR, more sexually aggressive and twisted. His fetish for married women is an interesting touch, and I like the idea of Bond taking sadistic pleasure from cuckolding other men. This is something that could be developed, and he could be given additional quirks and kinks. It's also pure Fleming: a roiling brew of sex, cruelty, and callousness.

Basically, I thnk many of the voices in this thread are focusing too exclusively on substances - alcohol, tobacco, drugs, food, etc - whereas the potential for morbid hedonism exists in many areas of life. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I really think of Craig-Bond as a more primal and direct kind of man, one less interested in consuming things and more interested in doing things and having things done to him. Connery's Bond was also located on this end of the spectrum, whereas Moore would lie as the opposite end - a refined consumer, an expert on food, wine, coffee, cigars, and clothes.

[Messervy]

Interesting.
But I think (and that's perhaps only me) that Bond is indeed the consumer and expert you mention. One of the recent films' lines says it all: he "takes pleasure in great beauty". That is a catchy sentence to sum it up. Bond is refined hedonism. He knows the vintage Champgane and the sherry blends. He knows the correct temperature for sake. Etc.

This is where I would differ from your view above: there's nothing twisted or sadistic in Bond. And that, to me, is precisely the issue: since the producers don't want to show him smoking or drinking too much (except in the plane in QoS...), they have to find new ways of telling us that Bond is nonetheless still reckless and cool and so on. So they'll resort to odd ideas, for the sole purpose of trying to depict a Bond living on the edge. But I fear we might lose Bond in the process, in the sense that Bond is not supposed to be a sadistic twisted agressive operative. That's ok for the "raw" early-age Bond that CR and QoS portrayed. But that's not Bond's character as such.

[Miles Miservy]

It's because kids are "impressionable" - If they see Bond smoking, they'll think it's cool and all do it. I mean, it's ok for kids to gun people down because Bond does it, to sleep around with several women because Bond does it and drink strong cocktails because Bond does it - but if they get a hint smoking is cool, bloody hell we can't have that!

That's just retarded. I've been a Bond fan since I was 8. All of the images that make OO7 cool are exactly that... just IMAGES. I don't smoke; I did but I quit. I did not start smoking because Bond did it. I don't like the taste of vodka. I did not start drinking martinis because Bond did it. I did not start seducing every beautiful woman with a heartbeat because Bond did it. I do not smack women on the backside because Bond did it; and I certainly don't kill villainous people just because Bond did it.

Sex, smoking, booze, location, death, intrigue, evil, excitement........ This is what makes OO7 survive for 50 years. Take any one of those elements away & you've got just another action movie.

We live in a world where governments now apologize to murderous terrorists who happen to get offended by what they read in a newspaper editorial. Politcal correctness is getting in the way of free thinking and actual thought provocation. Films, theater, television, even music are all being dumbed down to the simplest common denominator until nothing creative ever exists anymore. If I stopped to worry about if what I say might be found as offensive to some people, I probably wouldn't speak.

This is what happens when creativity is at the leash of the checkbook. Certain things cannot be expressed because the paymasters will not allow risks to be taken. However, I fail to see the contraversy of whether or not Bond has a cigarette. I felt it's absense in Brosanan's films rather blatant, though understandable due to his late wife's battle w/cancer. This, in all is a non-issue.

[marktmurphy]

It's because kids are "impressionable" - If they see Bond smoking, they'll think it's cool and all do it. I mean, it's ok for kids to gun people down because Bond does it, to sleep around with several women because Bond does it and drink strong cocktails because Bond does it - but if they get a hint smoking is cool, bloody hell we can't have that!

That's just retarded. I've been a Bond fan since I was 8. All of the images that make OO7 cool are exactly that... just IMAGES. I don't smoke; I did but I quit. I did not start smoking because Bond did it. I don't like the taste of vodka. I did not start drinking martinis because Bond did it. I did not start seducing every beautiful woman with a heartbeat because Bond did it. I do not smack women on the backside because Bond did it; and I certainly don't kill villainous people just because Bond did it.

I bet you've worn a suit, looked at yourself in the mirror and thought yourself a bit Bond. I bet you've probably held a toy gun like Bond at some point. I bet you've had a Bond soundtrack on in the car and pictured it as an Aston in your head at some point. Never bought any label or product name because it gets a mention in Bond? Never said a snappy line because Bond said it?
Face it, Bond is not an antihero: he's an audience fantasy fulfilment figure. No, not in everything: just because some people buy a pair of sunglasses he wears it doesn't mean that they want to be tortured on a chair with the bottom cut out. You've got to use some common sense.
If Bond wasn't a figure that people respected for his style then we wouldn't have countless companies clamouring to have their wares advertised in the movies, desperate to have Daniel Craig appear in character in their TV ads. And yet, I'm pretty sure that seems to happen. And it appears to have been tried and tested to work. I wonder why that is?

Seems 'retarded' to pretend that doesn't happen to me.

We live in a world where governments now apologize to murderous terrorists who happen to get offended by what they read in a newspaper editorial. Politcal correctness is getting in the way of free thinking and actual thought provocation. Films, theater, television, even music are all being dumbed down to the simplest common denominator until nothing creative ever exists anymore. If I stopped to worry about if what I say might be found as offensive to some people, I probably wouldn't speak.

This is what happens when creativity is at the leash of the checkbook. Certain things cannot be expressed because the paymasters will not allow risks to be taken.

Ridiculous over-reaction. The producers are responsible: they are more than aware of the power of Bond even if you're not.
Their creativity is not 'restricted' by that: it's much more restricted by aiming for a PG rating, losing the violence and sex and never including any swearing.
Besides: Bond shouldn't smoke. He'd just look like a loser in this day and age.

[Dustin]

... However, I fail to see the contraversy of whether or not Bond has a cigarette. I felt it's absense in Brosanan's films rather blatant,...

Really? Can't say that I did myself, it just never occurred to me something was missing. The films never played the '60-a-day' theme that prominently. In fact I can't at the moment remember if Connery smoked in DAF at all. Did he? And I'm pretty sure Moore wasn't seen smoking a lot during his whole tenure. It already came as a surprise when Dalton re-introduced the habit in TLD, but - truth be told - didn't it already look a bit awkward, a bit strange and unusual? Forced even?

I suppose the basic trait behind the smoking - hedonistic indulgence - can still be expressed within the boundaries of the film series, just with a different tool. Or set of tools, if necessary. Fact is: the cultural shorthand used by acting has changed significantly since the mid of last century. With it came a distinctive shift in the public perception of certain habits and customs, smoking just being one of the more obvious ones. It's not so much about how we ourselves perceive the depiction (or real-life encounter) of tobacco consumption, it's more what immediate associations are connected with the image. And this seems to be the crucial point: smoking is no longer seen as a glamorous indulgence universally. That's what effectively hinders its depiction in modern entertainment beyond a basic trait of questionable value, reserved for likewise questionable characters usually rooted in the anti-Bond's camp.

Edited by Dustin, 21 September 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[JCRendle]

It's because kids are "impressionable" - If they see Bond smoking, they'll think it's cool and all do it. I mean, it's ok for kids to gun people down because Bond does it, to sleep around with several women because Bond does it and drink strong cocktails because Bond does it - but if they get a hint smoking is cool, bloody hell we can't have that!

That's just retarded.

That was a joke...

[marktmurphy]

... However, I fail to see the contraversy of whether or not Bond has a cigarette. I felt it's absense in Brosanan's films rather blatant,...

Really? Can't say that I did myself, it just never occurred to me something was missing. The films never played the '60-a-day' theme that prominently. In fact I can't at the moment remember if Connery smoked in DAF at all. Did he? And I'm pretty sure Moore wasn't seen smoking a lot during his whole tenure. It already came as a surprise when Dalton re-introduced the habit in TLD, but - truth be told - didn't it already look a bit awkward, a bit strange and unusual? Forced even?

I believe you're right to say that Moore's Bond didn't smoke apart from a couple of cigars in Live and Let Die. I reckon it's probably true to say that Bond has been a non-smoker on screen longer than he has been a smoker.

Tim did light a couple up in Daylights (the scene in Gaydon springs to mind) but he did -without wanting to sound like a teenager- look a bit gay. Sorry, but he did. He really plays it up to the extent that he has a special smoking pose.

[The Shark]

... However, I fail to see the contraversy of whether or not Bond has a cigarette. I felt it's absense in Brosanan's films rather blatant,...

Really? Can't say that I did myself, it just never occurred to me something was missing. The films never played the '60-a-day' theme that prominently. In fact I can't at the moment remember if Connery smoked in DAF at all. Did he? And I'm pretty sure Moore wasn't seen smoking a lot during his whole tenure. It already came as a surprise when Dalton re-introduced the habit in TLD, but - truth be told - didn't it already look a bit awkward, a bit strange and unusual? Forced even?

I believe you're right to say that Moore's Bond didn't smoke apart from a couple of cigars in Live and Let Die.

I believe he does at least two in TMWTGG, as well.

[marktmurphy]

I believe he does at least two in TMWTGG, as well.

Fair enough, I don't recall. Does he have one in Beirut? That may make it half and half for smoking vs non-smoking!

How about Thunderball?

[AMC Hornet]

Can't smoke like a chimney and drink like a Russian commissar and scuba dive effectively. Fortunately, Bond had just come out of rehab Shrublands and was in better than usual shape for this particular mission.

Subsequently Osato nags him about smoking, which didn't stop him from lighting up at the casino in Portugal or at Draco's pad.

He did lay off in Las Vegas, and Connery must have learned from Moore's example, for the only time we see him with a coffin nail in NSNA is when he takes a slim cigar out of his 'bomb' case as he leaves the casino.

Of course, he'd just got out of rehab Shrublands, and was in better shape than usual for that particular mission...

[Mr Teddy Bear]

And that's fine, I guess. My main problem with Bond smoking at this stage in history is that it would be anachronistic to the point of phony, like one of those latter-day Woody Allen protagonists who is twenty years old and a huge fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Tobacco-smoking has lost whatever stylish associations it once had. It's not an aspirational behavior indulged by suave rich people with big gay cigarette cases. Smoking these days is associated with the poor, dropouts, hicks, backwards foreigners, the tragically ironic, or (in the case of cigars) with geriatric machismo. The more elderly Bonds may have benefited from the prop, but Craig's Bond certainly isn't a vıagra-popper who needs to make a bold statement about his throwback masculinity.

Once again, I think you're mistaking your opinion for fact. You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I do repsect it. But it is nonetheless just your opinion, based on where you live and on the surrounding social percpetion of smoking. It seems you're from the US, so I guess there is indeed this view on things there. But please do take into account other possible perspectives. In other places, say Europe (save, perhaps, UK), smoking is absolutely not associated with everything you just described.

I'm not saying "smoking is good" as such and I'm not adverstising it (I don't smoke cigarettes, and smoke only 1 cigar every other week). I'm just saying it is not what some may think it is. "the poor, dropouts, hicks, backwards foreigners, the tragically ironic, or (in the case of cigars) with geriatric machismo"? Please! That's utter nonesense...

Isn't the UK/US perception supremely important on this topic? I imagine the US and UK are two of Bond's biggest markets and they are certainly responsibly for most of the talent involved in the films.

[AgentBentley]

I don't particularly care whether he smokes or not. I never smoked in my life, but that doesn't mean I want to impose my habits on everybody else. I actually find Bond drinking Heineken far worse than him smoking.

[freemo]

My main problem with Bond smoking at this stage in history is that it would be anachronistic to the point of phony, like one of those latter-day Woody Allen protagonists who is twenty years old and a huge fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Tobacco-smoking has lost whatever stylish associations it once had. It's not an aspirational behavior indulged by suave rich people with big gay cigarette cases. Smoking these days is associated with the poor, dropouts, hicks, backwards foreigners, the tragically ironic, or (in the case of cigars) with geriatric machismo. The more elderly Bonds may have benefited from the prop, but Craig's Bond certainly isn't a vıagra-popper who needs to make a bold statement about his throwback masculinity.

Excellent posts on Bond smoking and of CraigBond, Pussfeller. I like your take on Craig's Bond as more of a "doer" than a "consumer" too.

Though I do think some thick clouds of smoke in the air would have added some atmosphere to the Casino Royale poker scenes, as unrealistic as such a thing might be "in this day and age". I think that's what I miss. Now it's just the scent and sweat that are nausiating at three o'clock in the morning.

[Binyamin]

Oh for a period film.

[AMC Hornet]

There are six period films - set and made in the 60s, plus one made the year after the first novel was published. How many more retro models do you need?

[Iceskater101]

Yeah see in order for it to be accurate wouldn't Bond be smoking a cigar. Besides that is a lot sexier than a cigarette. just saying..

[JimmyBond]

Yeah see in order for it to be accurate wouldn't Bond be smoking a cigar. Besides that is a lot sexier than a cigarette. just saying..

Roger Moore smoked cigars, as did Brosnan in Die Another Day. But the literary Bond was a heavy cigarette smoker. Smoking upwards of 70 a day (when I smoked I only smoked about eight a day, so I'm not sure how 70 would feel).

[Iceskater101]

Oh really? Interesting. I didn't know that. Still cigars are better.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

Correct me if I am mistaken but didn't Sir Rog had cigars only in LALD and TMWTGG and the next time we saw Bond smoking was in TLD?

Edited by AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän, 15 October 2012 - 04:06 AM.