271 replies to this topic

[The Shark]

Damn, we need a new film.

I'm just gonna say that I thought Bond displayed a good amount of humour in QOS. His first few lines are quips: "It's time to get out", "don't bleed to death", "If they wanted his soul, they should have made a deal with a priest".

What's remotely funny about these lines? There's no double meaning or wit to them.

Context.

1. Bond steps out of his half-wrecked Aston Martin after a brutal car chase to open the boot to a battered Mr White, a significant member of one of the world's most dangerous criminal organisations. He then smiles and says "It's time to get out." like a parent says to a child that has fallen asleep at the end of a long car journey.
2. The way Bond nonchalantly dumps the very injured Mr White while sarcastically saying this line, rounding it off by casually straightening his tie and cuff.
3. "I promised them Le Chiffre and they got Le Chiffre" "They got his BODY" "If they wanted his soul, they should have made a deal with a priest." That is certainly wit.

I see what you mean.

They do sound better when expounded up above, but I think my main problem is Craig's delivery. It's too nonchalant for it's own good, and comes off as bored, as if the lines are a chore that have to be done.

I get what you mean, but that kind of delivery in those beginning scenes works for me, given what Bond's frame of mind is at the time. It has to be cynical, dry, dark. I don't think doing the smarmy, one raised eyebrow quip delivery style of Moore/Broz would have been appropriate.

No, but they could have pulled a middle ground. After all, denial is one of the phases of mourning. It didn't have to be entirely morose.

[Mr. Blofeld]

It didn't have to be entirely morose.

Well, it wasn't entirely morose, was it? The freeze-frame into credits pretty much crystalizes the small smile on Bond's face; he's glad he's got White, after all that.

[The Shark]

It didn't have to be entirely morose.

Well, it wasn't entirely morose, was it? The freeze-frame into credits pretty much crystalizes the small smile on Bond's face; he's glad he's got White, after all that.

That's a sorry substitute for humour. Was the audience meant to laugh at that?

[jamie00007]

In Thunderball when Bond puts Fiona's body in the chair and says "Do you mind if my friend sits this one out? She's just dead" do you think the audience was meant to laugh at it? I seriously doubt it. Yet it has gone down as a series favorite and is often named when talking about the best lines in Bond. The above quotes are the exact same type of humour. They arent supposed to have them rolling in the aisles.

[jaguar007]

In Thunderball when Bond puts Fiona's body in the chair and says "Do you mind if my friend sits this one out? She's just dead" do you think the audience was meant to laugh at it?

Actually yes, I do think so. While I do agree with you that QoS does have a bit of humor here and there, none of it is quite as good as that line from TB.

My favorite line in QoS is the teachers of sabbatical line.

[The Shark]

In Thunderball when Bond puts Fiona's body in the chair and says "Do you mind if my friend sits this one out? She's just dead" do you think the audience was meant to laugh at it?

Actually yes, I do think so. While I do agree with you that QoS does have a bit of humor here and there, none of it is quite as good as that line from TB.

Exactly. That line alone puts every half-assed quip in the Craig-era to shame. Why does the TB gag work? Because it's got double, or even triple meaning. He's trying to be terribly civil and courteous to the couple, but then tells them (at the last minute) his wife's dead, and buggers off. It's out of necessity, since the authorities or SPECTRE goons could still be after him.

My favorite line in QoS is the teachers of sabbatical line.

There's irony to that too, and it got a got a laff in the theater. A one-off in the film.

[Mr_Wint]

In Thunderball when Bond puts Fiona's body in the chair and says "Do you mind if my friend sits this one out? She's just dead" do you think the audience was meant to laugh at it? I seriously doubt it.

What else could they do? Start weeping?

[Iroquois]

In Thunderball when Bond puts Fiona's body in the chair and says "Do you mind if my friend sits this one out? She's just dead" do you think the audience was meant to laugh at it?

Actually yes, I do think so. While I do agree with you that QoS does have a bit of humor here and there, none of it is quite as good as that line from TB.

Exactly. That line alone puts every half-assed quip in the Craig-era to shame. Why does the TB gag work? Because it's got double, or even triple meaning. He's trying to be terribly civil and courteous to the couple, but then tells them (at the last minute) his wife's dead, and buggers off. It's out of necessity, since the authorities or SPECTRE goons could still be after him.

The lines "Slate was a dead end" and "That last hand nearly killed me" serve a similar purpose. The "Yes, considerably" line is probably my favourite one-liner in the series though.

Also, the moment when Bond dumps an unconscious Camille on a stranger with the "Thank you, she's sea sick" line actually reminded me a lot of Thunderball. I don't know whether that was intentional, however, but I've always loved it for that reason and the way we get a rather retro version of the Bond theme leading up to it.

[jamie00007]

Yes, because laughing or weeping is obviously the only two reactIons an audience can have.

[The Shark]

In Thunderball when Bond puts Fiona's body in the chair and says "Do you mind if my friend sits this one out? She's just dead" do you think the audience was meant to laugh at it?

Actually yes, I do think so. While I do agree with you that QoS does have a bit of humor here and there, none of it is quite as good as that line from TB.

Exactly. That line alone puts every half-assed quip in the Craig-era to shame. Why does the TB gag work? Because it's got double, or even triple meaning. He's trying to be terribly civil and courteous to the couple, but then tells them (at the last minute) his wife's dead, and buggers off. It's out of necessity, since the authorities or SPECTRE goons could still be after him.

The lines "Slate was a dead end" and "That last hand nearly killed me" serve a similar purpose.

They aim to capture something like TB's humour, but fall flat IMO. They're more in the tradition of lines like "Looks like he came to a dead end" (LTK).

Also, the moment when Bond dumps an unconscious Camille on a stranger with the "Thank you, she's sea sick" line actually reminded me a lot of Thunderball.

Fairly sure that was intentional, but it misses the point of TB's very-English social comedy. There's not much of that in the Craig-era examples you give.

If Craig delivered it like an officer-class gentleman with a school boy smirk, then it would be Connery-like.

[Jack Spang]

In regards to QoS (which I love btw), I can understand people who want to accuse Craig's Bond of being humourless, a killing machine. not fun etc. In that particular movie, which was fairly downbeat as far as Bond films go (I still think there was plenty of fun throughout though), but I never understood and I still dont how people can say it about Casino Royale, either the film or Bond in it. Sometimes I feel like I saw a different movie than everyone else. Bond throughout the film was having fun, making dry jokes and generally had a cocky, devil-may-care attitude through the whole film. No different than any other Bond film. He was even making jokes while being tortures and being poisoned. One of the reasons I love the film so much is that it captures the right mix of fun and seriousness that the best early films did. Yet the anti-Craig mob wants to perpetuate this idea of a dour "emo" Bond If anything Brosnan in TWINE was far more "emo" than Craig in either film. Aside from the Vesper death scene Im struggling to think of a single scene in CR where Bond was particularly serious.

This is something I didn't like about CR. Too much humour I felt and in the wrong parts. One thing I liked about QOS was the balance of humour and seriousness. The humour was natural too and sprang from normal conversations. I bet they'll now fill up Bond 23 with a fair bit of humour and insert it back into the wrong parts since QOS was critiscised by the annoying critics for having too little.

"That last hand nearly killed me" line was appropriate and funny. It worked well. The tourture scene could have done without the quips.

Edited by Jack Spang, 13 May 2011 - 10:54 PM.

[iBond]

I just want a clean and new story! We are done with the whole who is behind Vesper thing. Let's start something new! Let's have him be the Bond that we all know and love! Sure, we can have something to do with Quantum...which is practically the new SPECTRE, but let's do something new with it!

[Major Tallon]

"That last hand nearly killed me" line was appropriate and funny. It worked well. The tourture scene could have done without the quips.

I don't know for sure, but I'm fairly certain that they had to use something of a light touch in the torture scene in order to avoid an R rating, which would have harmed the box office.

[Jack Spang]

"That last hand nearly killed me" line was appropriate and funny. It worked well. The tourture scene could have done without the quips.

I don't know for sure, but I'm fairly certain that they had to use something of a light touch in the torture scene in order to avoid an R rating, which would have harmed the box office.

It's a real shame when this sort of thing gets in the way and depletes artistic integrity. I'd prefer Bond to have an R16 rating, not that that will ever happen.

[Capsule in Space]

Let's have him be the Bond that we all know and love!

That sounds great to me!

[SecretAgentFan]

Let's have him be the Bond that we all know and love!

That sounds great to me!

To me, too! Oh, wait... which Bond did we all love? Okay, I love all of them. But it definitely occurs to me that most people here only love their particular favorite.

[00 Brosnan]

Now that I've seen some of them mentioned, CR and QoS actually did have a good bit of humor. It's just more subtle. I've been one to call for a little more humor in the Craig era, but now I'm not so sure.

Oh how I miss Desmond Llewelyn. I think Craig and him would have played off each other beautifully. I'd still like to see them reintroduce Q branch (even if they don't bring back the Q character, though I personally have no problem with John Cleese & thought he was a fine replacement) b/c I miss the cool gadgets very much. Sorry, but the "smart phone" tricks are neither cool or unique, they're played out.

Craig apparently has stated he wants Q to be reintroduced so that gives me some hope.

Edited by 00 Brosnan, 15 May 2011 - 01:14 PM.

[jaguar007]

Let's have him be the Bond that we all know and love!

That sounds great to me!

To me, too! Oh, wait... which Bond did we all love? Okay, I love all of them. But it definitely occurs to me that most people here only love their particular favorite.

Very true, there is no particular "The Bond we all know and love" Sean Connery's and Roger Moore's portrayals could not be further apart.

[Capsule in Space]

Very true, there is no particular "The Bond we all know and love" Sean Connery's and Roger Moore's portrayals could not be further apart.

I have to disagree. Certainly each actor brought something different to the role, but they all remained confined to the characteristics that had been established in Goldfinger, and those characteristics that defined Bond films were kept until 2002. The exception is how dark and moody they let Licence to Kill get with Timothy Dalton to disastrous box office results, but even that film contained some of the established Bond traits.

Sean Connery and Roger Moore bring differing elements to the table, but I could see Connery in some of Moore's films, and vice versa. I could see the other actors in some of these films too. However, Craig's Bond is like nothing we have ever seen prior to 2002. This is for many reasons, but mainly because he is completely devoid of charm.

The comparisons I see to Connery and Craig in this forum are completely asinine. For instance, Craig could not have carried Goldfinger. He could not pull off the golf match, he could not pull of the scenes with Blackman, and he could not pull off the scenes with Eaton. The Eaton scene was ripped off in QOS, and it came off as awkward and contrived. The problem is Craig cannot pull off Bond. He doesn't fit in the role. Nothing against Craig the actor, but he has been miscast.

People can like the Craig films, but he is not a traditional Bond. To state he is a traditional Bond is to state a misnomer. Craig's Bond is a new, "rebooted" Bond. This "new Bond" has little to do with what was established by EON from 1962-2002, and he has little to do with what Fleming established in his novels and stories.

[jaguar007]

The comparisons I see to Connery and Craig in this forum are completely asinine. For instance, Craig could not have carried Goldfinger. He could not pull off the golf match, he could not pull of the scenes with Blackman, and he could not pull off the scenes with Eaton. The Eaton scene was ripped off in QOS, and it came off as awkward and contrived. The problem is Craig cannot pull off Bond. He doesn't fit in the role. Nothing against Craig the actor, but he has been miscast.

Once again I have to disagree with you. It seems that you view of Craig is based solely on QoS and you are forgetting much of CR. Craig as Bond in the Bahamas scenes are the closest we have seen to the early Connery (ala GF and TB) since the 60s. Masculine yet still charming and not coming across as a playboy. The scenes with Solange suggest that he could be playful in scenes like GF. Gambling against Demetrius suggest that he could play the golf scene in GF.

[00 Brosnan]

Craig's Bond is like nothing we have ever seen prior to 2002. This is for many reasons, but mainly because he is completely devoid of charm.

I don't think Craig is devoid of charm. It's just a more subtle...more refined charm than what was in the pre-Craig films. It's not that "playboy" charm that Brosnan and Moore had. They were both good at it, it was natural to them and it worked well.

I think the scene on the train in CR where Bond meets Vesper is a good example of Craig's charm. Little bit of humor, sarcasm, teasing, and compliments all rolled into what is called "charm." Well played by Craig and Vesper seemed to agree.

Edited by 00 Brosnan, 20 May 2011 - 02:09 AM.

[jaguar007]

Craig's Bond is like nothing we have ever seen prior to 2002. This is for many reasons, but mainly because he is completely devoid of charm.

I don't think Craig is devoid of charm. It's just a more subtle...more refined charm than what was in the pre-Craig films. It's not that "playboy" charm that Brosnan and Moore had. They were both good at it, it was natural too them and it worked well.

I think the scene on the train in CR where Bond meets Vesper is a good example of Craig's charm. Little bit of humor, sarcasm, teasing, and compliments all rolled into what is called "charm." Well played by Craig and Vesper seemed to agree.

Exactly

[The Shark]

I think the Bahamas scenes are decent demonstrations of Craig's charm, but not that lousily written train 'verbal duel', or the following scene in the taxi. It plays like Paul 'CRASH' Haggis's attempt at Ernest Lehman's genuinely clever train dialogue from NORTH BY NORTHWEST. Which is exactly what it is.

Greene was simply miscast from day one (she couldn't convincingly play vulnerable, or show her character's mental decline). They needed someone cold, eerily beautiful, and aloof - yet unobtainable, like Kim Novak in VERTIGO.

That's what Fleming meant by the infamous "sweet tang of rape." Making love to such a passive woman, would feel like a violation. A taboo. And a strange turn-on, because of that.

[Chief of SIS]

I think the Bahamas scenes are decent demonstrations of Craig's charm, but not that lousily written train 'verbal duel', or the following scene in the taxi. It plays like Paul 'CRASH' Haggis's attempt at Ernest Lehman's genuinely clever train dialogue from NORTH BY NORTHWEST. Which is exactly what it is.

Greene was simply miscast from day one (she couldn't convincingly play vulnerable, or show her character's mental decline). They needed someone cold, eerily beautiful, and aloof - yet unobtainable, like Kim Novak in VERTIGO.

That's what Fleming meant by the infamous "sweet tang of rape." Making love to such a passive woman, would feel like a violation. A taboo. And a strange turn-on, because of that.

I agree that Miami highlights Craig's charm well but at the same time, I think the train scene is also superb in showing Craig's strength and his attention to the subtle nuances he has here and there. Do not get me wrong, the train scene dialogue is lazy but Craig's charm makes the scene sparkle for me. From the rebuttal he gives about his rear, to the way he says 'skewered' and even that light grin he gives once Vesper leaves are beautiful, small touches that Craig adds.

I'll agree with you on Greene though. I have always found her too volatile in the part. Her emotional changes were sporadic and hard to read. Though she is by no means horrible for anyone that has not read the novel, I do not think she really fit what Flemming's desired.

[byline]

Craig as Bond in the Bahamas scenes are the closest we have seen to the early Connery (ala GF and TB) since the 60s. Masculine yet still charming and not coming across as a playboy. The scenes with Solange suggest that he could be playful in scenes like GF. Gambling against Demetrius suggest that he could play the golf scene in GF.

I agree, and would go back even farther to "Dr. No"; for me, those films carry many striking parallels between the two actors.

Greene was simply miscast from day one (she couldn't convincingly play vulnerable, or show her character's mental decline). They needed someone cold, eerily beautiful, and aloof - yet unobtainable, like Kim Novak in VERTIGO.

I disagree overall; I think Eva Green was superb in the role, though I will concede on your point about Vesper's mental decline. We really only saw glimpses of that when, realistically, we should have seen more. Having said that, I really don't think that was due to Green's acting skills; I believe she was directed to act like that so that, for anyone who hadn't read the novel, Vesper's betrayal would come as a shock. Showing that mental decline (as Novak did in "Vertigo") telegraphs a betrayal from miles away, and I suspect that the powers that be didn't want it to be so obvious to the general audience.

[byline]

(Oops, sorry. Mods, feel free to delete.)

[The Shark]

Showing that mental decline (as Novak did in "Vertigo") telegraphs a betrayal from miles away, and I suspect that the powers that be didn't want it to be so obvious to the general audience.

There's a difference between telegraphing (this is what QOS does all the time) and foreshadowing. The later can be very powerful when handled right, with an overriding sense of something terrible going to happen, but not being sure what. A sense of impending doom. Music, mis-en-scene, performances, editing, and camera set-ups - can all work toward this, without any obvious dialogue. Or words at all.

If people have already read the book, and know the outcome from miles away - so what? Film makers shouldn't try to appeal to the 'Spoiler Alert!' crowd, and subsequently dumb down their picture.

It should be about how it happens, not what. That's where the audience's investment ultimately lies.

Because the film makers were afraid of foreshadowing Vesper's death (or didn't know how) - it feels rushed, awkward, and arbitrary.

What did Hitchcock say?

"There is no terror in a bang, [but there surely is] in the anticipation of it."

[Jack Spang]

"...and he (Craig) has little to do with what Fleming established in his novels and stories."

I don't believe that. There are many aspects of the literary Bond's personality that are mirrored in Craig's Bond. Craig's impulsiveness and lack of discipline however is heightened however. If you read Pearson's biography of Bond you'll see greater similarities in terms of this though when Bond was younger, as in, in his twenties.

Edited by Jack Spang, 20 May 2011 - 09:44 PM.

[The Shark]

"...and he (Craig) has little to do with what Fleming established in his novels and stories."

I don't believe that. There are many aspects of the literary Bond's personality that are mirrored in Craig's Bond. Craig's impulsiveness and lack of discipline however is heightened however. If you read Pearson's biography of Bond you'll see greater similarities in terms of this though when Bond was younger, as in, in his twenties.

That's understandable, but in his late 30s/turning 40?

[jaguar007]

"...and he (Craig) has little to do with what Fleming established in his novels and stories."

I don't believe that. There are many aspects of the literary Bond's personality that are mirrored in Craig's Bond. Craig's impulsiveness and lack of discipline however is heightened however. If you read Pearson's biography of Bond you'll see greater similarities in terms of this though when Bond was younger, as in, in his twenties.

That's understandable, but in his late 30s/turning 40?

You know they say 40 is the new 20.

Seriously, 30s, 40s or 50s, the cinematic Bond has always ha moments of impulsiveness and lack of discipline.