135 replies to this topic

[The Ghost Who Walks]

Just imagine:

http://007art.free.f...e_dalton_2.html

How do YOU think GoldenEye would have been with Dalton's involvement? Better? Worse?

I personally think I would enjoy the film a lot more with him in the role. Pierce is not very interesting in this film (he hit his stride in Tomorrow Never Dies, where he's fine), and the script feels, as pointed out by many, like it was written with Dalton's portrayal in mind.

GoldenEye would likely also be a film I would have some kind of interest in re-watching with Timothy in the part (I never watch this film these days).

[Mr_Wint]

and the script feels, as pointed out by many, like it was written with Dalton's portrayal in mind.

I can't see it. The GE script is clearly written for a more rounded Bond. Dalton's bitter, stale, take on the role would feel completely out of place in many scenes. A third Dalton film would be totally different (and probably less successful with the audience). Better or worse? Pointless speculation.

[Harmsway]

Depends on which draft of GOLDENEYE you're talking about. The final draft wasn't quite so Dalton-esque. But the Michael France draft definitely feels like it was written for Dalton in how it characterizes Bond (and for that matter, France's draft of GOLDENEYE has a few narrative links to Dalton's Bond sown in throughout the story, like Pushkin making an appearance).

[DamnCoffee]

Have you read the France draft, Harmsway?

There was a time where I would've LOVED Dalton in GoldenEye, but now I think i've come to appreciate it more. So no. I would've loved a 3rd Dalton movie though, but not GoldenEye.

[Harmsway]

Have you read the France draft, Harmsway?

I read it a while back. I've tried to find my copy since, but I'm beginning to think it's permanently lost.

[Royal Dalton]

Michael France's script could have been Dalton's 'Spy Who Loved Me' if things had turned out differently. It was pretty realistic, but with some quite outlandish sequences thrown into the mix (the Aston Martin vs. helicopter chase on the train roof, the freefall sequence, etc).

Jeffrey Caine's script is quite Daltonesque, as well.

[tdalton]

I think that GOLDENEYE would have been better with Dalton, but it would have taken a significant amount of work on the film in addition to bringing in Dalton to make GOLDENEYE watchable. For me, the main problem with the film is that it feels quite cheap, even though it's a major blockbuster film. Campbell's visual style on the film is awful (something he thankfully improved significantly with CASINO ROYALE) and borders on looking like a TV film.

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think the franchise would have lasted much longer with Dalton in GOLDENEYE and had the rest of the film remained the same. I don't think it's a very good movie at all on its own right, and putting Dalton in there, who was already unpopular, would have probably considerably weakened the film in the eyes of the general audience, as opposed to Brosnan, who everyone had warmed up to before even seeing the film (or at least it seemed that way).

[Jeao007]

I would have loved to see Dalton in Goldeneye. Whenever I watch the film I always find myself envisioning Dalton instead of Peirce. I think Dalton would have brought more life to the movie, Peirce's performance was rather dull.

[Turn]

and the script feels, as pointed out by many, like it was written with Dalton's portrayal in mind.

I can't see it. The GE script is clearly written for a more rounded Bond. Dalton's bitter, stale, take on the role would feel completely out of place in many scenes. A third Dalton film would be totally different (and probably less successful with the audience). Better or worse? Pointless speculation.

How do you think this is written for a more rounded Bond when GE was Brosnan's debut? I think part of the problem with GE is you've got a Bond film that wants it two ways: to reintroduce the character after 6 years with a new supporting cast and feel.

But it also wants you to believe in this history Bond has with Trevelyan. We're just supposed to accept Bond had a fellow 00 he had previous adventures and was somewhat close to when other 00s have been nameless, basically faceless fellow agents. It calls more for a Bond we're familiar with. It's not like a continuing partnership with Leiter or something. That's where the brooding on the beach thing doesn't work.

you can give the arguement Brosnan's Bond was accepted by the audience before the film, which is true in a sense, but storywise I just don't think it was a great move. I never have bought the intense issues between Bond and Trevelyan.

[Harmsway]

Jeffrey Caine's script is quite Daltonesque, as well.

I haven't read Caine's script. How does it differ from France's and Feirstein's versions?

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

But it also wants you to believe in this history Bond has with Trevelyan. We're just supposed to accept Bond had a fellow 00 he had previous adventures and was somewhat close to when other 00s have been nameless, basically faceless fellow agents. It calls more for a Bond we're familiar with. It's not like a continuing partnership with Leiter or something. That's where the brooding on the beach thing doesn't work.

you can give the arguement Brosnan's Bond was accepted by the audience before the film, which is true in a sense, but storywise I just don't think it was a great move. I never have bought the intense issues between Bond and Trevelyan.

I agree. For thirty plus years Bond had no interaction with any other 00 agent and then all of a sudden he is best drinking mates with another 00 in the service.

[jaguar007]

and the script feels, as pointed out by many, like it was written with Dalton's portrayal in mind.

I can't see it. The GE script is clearly written for a more rounded Bond. Dalton's bitter, stale, take on the role would feel completely out of place in many scenes. A third Dalton film would be totally different (and probably less successful with the audience). Better or worse? Pointless speculation.

Apparently you forgot to see TLD.

I think GE would have been far better with Dalton. Brosnan seemed to try to act like Dalton in much of GE, but it does not work for him. My biggest problem with GE (next to the score) is Brosnan does not seem confident as Bond in that film. Dalton comes off much more as a strong, confident alpha male where Brosnan comes across more boy like.

[Tybre]

Eh, while there are days I think Dalton would be better in GoldenEye, I'd rather have the unmade 3rd film than Dalton in GoldenEye. Never understood why people hated the robots in that thing. Doesn't bother me in the least. Mind you I've only read mi6's synopsis since the one place I found that had a draft of the script is dead.

[Conlazmoodalbrocra]

Dalton is my favourite Bond and Goldeneye is my favourite Bond movie, yet I can't see Dalton in Goldeneye at all. I think the main problem is that the dialogue scenes would work with Dalton, but the action was far more intense in Goldeneye (i.e. the fight with Trevelyan on the dish) than it had been in The Living Daylights and Licence To Kill, and I question whether the action would have been more dramatic and exciting with Dalton than Brosnan. However, the fact that Dalton only did two Bond movies still pains me today and I wish he'd have done more, but Goldeneye, for me, shouldn't have been one of them.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I'd be fine with another Timothy Dalton film but not with him in GoldenEye. I love GoldenEye as is and Pierce Brosnan is my favorite Bond so there you go.

[ChandlerBing]

I'd pay good money to see Dalton in Moonraker. Maybe one of these days, the moviegoer can mix and match their Bond actors in different movies. See Dalton look uncomfortable with Jaws. See Sean Connery slap Mary Goodnight in Golden Gun. See Pierce Brosnan mow down Oddjob with an Uzi in Goldeneye. See Daniel Craig come out of the ocean, instead of Ursulla Undress in Dr No.

[Trident]

But it also wants you to believe in this history Bond has with Trevelyan. We're just supposed to accept Bond had a fellow 00 he had previous adventures and was somewhat close to when other 00s have been nameless, basically faceless fellow agents. It calls more for a Bond we're familiar with. It's not like a continuing partnership with Leiter or something. That's where the brooding on the beach thing doesn't work.

you can give the arguement Brosnan's Bond was accepted by the audience before the film, which is true in a sense, but storywise I just don't think it was a great move. I never have bought the intense issues between Bond and Trevelyan.

Excellent, excellent rebuttal. I like the movie, but that part of the film has always bothered me. The beach sequence, on its own, is very good, but in the whole scheme of things seems to come out of nowhere. The scene just somehow does not fit.

I think it would have far better worked if Bond and Trevelyan actually had been shown most of the time together in the film, giving them the necessary space for a friendship the audience can believe in. And certainly not with Trevelyan as active 00 agent, rather as a station chief like Kerim Bey. He could have been a former 00 taken from the list due to a visual defect. I could have bought that any time over the drinking buddies GE's plot tries to sell us.

[jaguar007]

bringing the fun and some of the humor and style and sophistication back into the series...would never have worked with Dalton.

I disagree. I think they could have made a Bond movie with more humor and style with Dalton, it just would have been a different type of humor than with Moore or Brosnan. Dalton showed much more charm in TLD than he did in LTK plus he could have played a more slicker and humorous Bond then he did in his two movies. Check out his performance in The Rocketeer, Hot Fuzz and even Scarlett. He demonstrated that he can do comedy in those films.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I'd pay good money to see Dalton in Moonraker. Maybe one of these days, the moviegoer can mix and match their Bond actors in different movies.

Interesting idea. I'd like to see:

Dalton in GoldenEye and For Your Eyes Only,

Connery in The Spy Who Loved Me and The World is not Enough,

Brosnan in Moonraker and A View to a Kill,

Craig in Licence to Kill and Tomorrow Never Dies,

Moore in Goldfinger and Diamonds Are Forever,

Lazenby in The Man with the Golden Gun and You Only Live Twice.

[Mr_Wint]

and the script feels, as pointed out by many, like it was written with Dalton's portrayal in mind.

I can't see it. The GE script is clearly written for a more rounded Bond. Dalton's bitter, stale, take on the role would feel completely out of place in many scenes. A third Dalton film would be totally different (and probably less successful with the audience). Better or worse? Pointless speculation.

Apparently you forgot to see TLD.

I think GE would have been far better with Dalton. Brosnan seemed to try to act like Dalton in much of GE, but it does not work for him. My biggest problem with GE (next to the score) is Brosnan does not seem confident as Bond in that film. Dalton comes off much more as a strong, confident alpha male where Brosnan comes across more boy like.

I'm pretty sure that everyone in this thread has seen TLD, several times. I still can't see Dalton straighten his tie during a tank chase or fighting half-naked with Onatopp.

You can not put Dalton in GE without doing some big changes to the script. If this would lead to a better or worse film is impossible to say. I'm not going to waste my time with pointless guessing or what-if scenarios.

I wouldn't describe Dalton's Bond as a 'confident' alpha male. He's too sombre for that. Seriously, do you really think Brosnan tried to copy Dalton?

[Royal Dalton]

Jeffrey Caine's script is quite Daltonesque, as well.

I haven't read Caine's script. How does it differ from France's and Feirstein's versions?

It was pretty close to the Feirstein version, really. Caine put Ourumov in it and changed quite a few things around, like making Trevelyan 006. Instead of Jack Wade, Bond met a British contact called Jimmy Marks in St. Petersburg. M was still a man. Bill Tanner was just called 'Intelligence Analyst'. There was a Russian subway scene where Bond survived being run over by an underground train. The freefall sequence was still in it, and Trevelyan died after being electrocuted on the dish. Overall, though, it was quite similar to the shooting script.

I still can't see Dalton straighten his tie during a tank chase or fighting half-naked with Onatopp.

No, Dalton would never have done anything as cringeworthy as that.

[jaguar007]

I still can't see Dalton straighten his tie during a tank chase or fighting half-naked with Onatopp.

You can not put Dalton in GE without doing some big changes to the script. If this would lead to a better or worse film is impossible to say. I'm not going to waste my time with pointless guessing or what-if scenarios.

I can see Dalton straighten his tie, but differently than Brosnan did. I can see Dalton do more casually like Connery did at Kobe docks in YOLT. Straightening his tie in the tank scene is not a major script change, it is a minor one. Yes, with Dalton there would be some changes, that would have been with any different actor in the role. I'm sure there were script changes to accomidate Brosnan in the role.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

I disagree. I think they could have made a Bond movie with more humor and style with Dalton, it just would have been a different type of humor than with Moore or Brosnan. Dalton showed much more charm in TLD than he did in LTK plus he could have played a more slicker and humorous Bond then he did in his two movies. Check out his performance in The Rocketeer, Hot Fuzz and even Scarlett. He demonstrated that he can do comedy in those films.

I saw this clip on youtube recently. It does not appear Bondian at all, but I was kinda surprised to see Dalton do this kind of thing.

[Mr_Wint]

I still can't see Dalton straighten his tie during a tank chase or fighting half-naked with Onatopp.

You can not put Dalton in GE without doing some big changes to the script. If this would lead to a better or worse film is impossible to say. I'm not going to waste my time with pointless guessing or what-if scenarios.

I can see Dalton straighten his tie, but differently than Brosnan did. I can see Dalton do more casually like Connery did at Kobe docks in YOLT. Straightening his tie in the tank scene is not a major script change, it is a minor one. Yes, with Dalton there would be some changes, that would have been with any different actor in the role. I'm sure there were script changes to accomidate Brosnan in the role.

Removing the car chase with the Aston, the tank chase and the character Onatopp is what I call major script changes. None of these scenes would be there with him in the role. And it is not even sure that Campbell would direct the film with Dalton, or that the film company would pay for it. So we are talking about a completely different film or the end of the series.

Timothy Dalton's stage-actor approach to Bond was a mildly amusing experiment, but not worthy of a legacy. Dalton was finished after LTK. He had no more "petrol in the tank".

[Conlazmoodalbrocra]

I still can't see Dalton straighten his tie during a tank chase or fighting half-naked with Onatopp.

You can not put Dalton in GE without doing some big changes to the script. If this would lead to a better or worse film is impossible to say. I'm not going to waste my time with pointless guessing or what-if scenarios.

I can see Dalton straighten his tie, but differently than Brosnan did. I can see Dalton do more casually like Connery did at Kobe docks in YOLT. Straightening his tie in the tank scene is not a major script change, it is a minor one. Yes, with Dalton there would be some changes, that would have been with any different actor in the role. I'm sure there were script changes to accomidate Brosnan in the role.

Removing the car chase with the Aston, the tank chase and the character Onatopp is what I call major script changes. None of these scenes would be there with him in the role. And it is not even sure that Campbell would direct the film with Dalton, or that the film company would pay for it. So we are talking about a completely different film or the end of the series.

Timothy Dalton's stage-actor approach to Bond was a mildly amusing experiment, but not worthy of a legacy. Dalton was finished after LTK. He had no more "petrol in the tank".

I strongly disagree. Dalton's approach was arguably the most Fleming-esque of all the Bonds so far and for this his tenure as Bond needs to be admired for trying to take the Bond films away from the enjoyable yet farcical adventures of Roger Moore. Just because Licence To Kill wasn't as successful as the producers wanted it to be doesn't necessarily mean future Dalton movies would all flop. The Living Daylights was generally well-received and I'm adamant that another Dalton Bond movie, provided the script, cast and crew were all sound, could have been a great success.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

Timothy Dalton's stage-actor approach to Bond was a mildly amusing experiment, but not worthy of a legacy. Dalton was finished after LTK. He had no more "petrol in the tank".

I strongly disagree. Dalton's approach was arguably the most Fleming-esque of all the Bonds so far and for this his tenure as Bond needs to be admired for trying to take the Bond films away from the enjoyable yet farcical adventures of Roger Moore. Just because Licence To Kill wasn't as successful as the producers wanted it to be doesn't necessarily mean future Dalton movies would all flop. The Living Daylights was generally well-received and I'm adamant that another Dalton Bond movie, provided the script, cast and crew were all sound, could have been a great success.

I also disagree. If you think casting Dalton was a mildy amusing experiment fair enough, that's your opinion. I think In '87 his casting really woke up the series and was a major change in direction. It was never going to please everyone and I think EON knew that. I have said before I don't think Dalton was going to reach the box office highs (certainly in America) that Connery or Moore did, but I'm not aware of any evidence that suggests Dalton had no more 'petrol in the tank' after only just two films.

[Mr_Wint]

(...) or when Sanchez tells Bond he'll need to possess a certain skill that the locals in Isthmus don't have, and Bond looks around the room and says: 'That shouldn't be too difficult'. But I think those lines mostly went over the heads of the audience.

It doesn't take a "superior specimen" (or whatever you call yourself) to get this joke. It's not very deep.

[Tybre]

(...) or when Sanchez tells Bond he'll need to possess a certain skill that the locals in Isthmus don't have, and Bond looks around the room and says: 'That shouldn't be too difficult'. But I think those lines mostly went over the heads of the audience.

It doesn't take a "superior specimen" (or whatever you call yourself) to get this joke. It's not very deep.

No, but the majority of Americans, particularly teenagers these days, just goes SHOOP ride over their heads. They need a laugh track, or slapstick, or something else to make it beyond blatant. Subtlety is wasted on American youth, alas.

[Jeao007]

Most of today's youth are rather sad cases. Tybre, I believe you and I are the only 17 year olds I know of that can speak correct English.

[pparker007]

Goldeneye would have been horrible with Dalton!!!