625 replies to this topic

[The Shark]

I'm not asking for the doldrums of predictability, but I am asking for light camp. In the vein of MOONRAKER, FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, THUNDEBRALL, DR. NO, ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE and DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER.

Serious with a large degree of veracity, while still embracing the fun.

Moonraker and Diamonds are Forever had veracity?!

They sure did, with most of it coming from Bruce Glover & Putter Smith, Michel Lonsdale, Roger Moore, Bernard Lee, and John Barry. MOONRAKER in particular, has quite a few serious, dour scenes: Drax's speech to his minions, Corinne's death, Bond in the lab, trapped under the main propulsion engines of Drax's shuttle, pre-tile sequence hi-jack - even the (visually) ridiculous 'laser battle' and zero gravity sequences in the climax are scored as one haunting dirge.
While still being camp, Wint and Kidd's murders from DAF are still pretty chilling, for the standards of a Bond film. As I think is Bond being nearly being cremated alive, buried alive, and so on. John Barry helps all of a this a great deal - he provides the atmosphere.

Sort of like Hammer Horror at its best DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER experted juggles between clever, tasteful, self-deprecating wit (take note Purvis & Wade); theatricality; and menace.

[blueman]

Shark, do you notice the films you mention are quite old? You really expect EON to make a modern Bond film along such lines? I get what you're saying, and quite enjoy many of the films you list, but I also have zero expectation that EON makes anything like them anytime soon. Movie business demands keeping up with the times, they seem to have hit on what audiences want from Bond with the reboot. Just like with MR, TB, etc in their respective eras.

FWIW, I thought QOS found a nice seam between modern action thriller and old school Bond vibage. True, there was a grim undercurrent to it that IMO was organic to what Bond was going through. But I expect 23 to find it's vibe somewhere between QOS and the more angst-free CR, as befitting where Bond now is in his life/career. The one thing I do expect to continue is his bent against Quantum, don't know I'd call it personal but definitely an itch Bond feels he has to scratch.

23 could (and really should) end up being the modern equivalent of TB, and that ain't bad.

[The Shark]

Shark, do you notice the films you mention are quite old? You really expect EON to make a modern Bond film along such lines? I get what you're saying, and quite enjoy many of the films you list, but I also have zero expectation that EON makes anything like them anytime soon. Movie business demands keeping up with the times, they seem to have hit on what audiences want from Bond with the reboot. Just like with MR, TB, etc in their respective eras.

FWIW, I thought QOS found a nice seam between modern action thriller and old school Bond vibage. True, there was a grim undercurrent to it that IMO was organic to what Bond was going through. But I expect 23 to find it's vibe somewhere between QOS and the more angst-free CR, as befitting where Bond now is in his life/career. The one thing I do expect to continue is his bent against Quantum, don't know I'd call it personal but definitely an itch Bond feels he has to scratch.

23 could (and really should) end up being the modern equivalent of TB, and that ain't bad.

The whole 'dark and gritty nihilism' phrase is subsiding somewhat in Hollywood (i.e. THE GREEN LANTERN), and I predict Bond will follow in that fashion. They hit what audiences wanted with CR, but considerably less so with QOS, considering the mauling it got from the public and critics. So naturally they'll compensate for that, and head for something less joyless, humourless, aloof and neutered. Ideally something between CR, and pre-Dalton Bond.

[Chief of SIS]

Shark, do you notice the films you mention are quite old? You really expect EON to make a modern Bond film along such lines? I get what you're saying, and quite enjoy many of the films you list, but I also have zero expectation that EON makes anything like them anytime soon. Movie business demands keeping up with the times, they seem to have hit on what audiences want from Bond with the reboot. Just like with MR, TB, etc in their respective eras.

FWIW, I thought QOS found a nice seam between modern action thriller and old school Bond vibage. True, there was a grim undercurrent to it that IMO was organic to what Bond was going through. But I expect 23 to find it's vibe somewhere between QOS and the more angst-free CR, as befitting where Bond now is in his life/career. The one thing I do expect to continue is his bent against Quantum, don't know I'd call it personal but definitely an itch Bond feels he has to scratch.

23 could (and really should) end up being the modern equivalent of TB, and that ain't bad.

The whole 'dark and gritty nihilism' phrase is subsiding somewhat in Hollywood (i.e. THE GREEN LANTERN), and I predict Bond will follow in that fashion. They hit what audiences wanted with CR, but considerably less so with QOS, considering the mauling it got from the public and critics. So naturally they'll compensate for that, and head for something less joyless, humourless, aloof and neutered. Ideally something between CR, and pre-Dalton Bond.

While I wish things could also take a brighter turn from QoS, though the grit seemed fitting at times, I can't help but feel that that middle ground between CR and pre-Dalton just won't exist in modern Bond film. The Dark Knight has pushed the action film genre into surreal realities filled with dark messages warning of governments and down-to-earth villains. I don't see the next Bond film being farther off the spectrum than CR. Maybe a shift from QoS BACK to CR but not off it. Not in this post 9/11 society.

Edited by Chief of SIS, 30 November 2010 - 04:41 AM.

[blueman]

Shark, do you notice the films you mention are quite old? You really expect EON to make a modern Bond film along such lines? I get what you're saying, and quite enjoy many of the films you list, but I also have zero expectation that EON makes anything like them anytime soon. Movie business demands keeping up with the times, they seem to have hit on what audiences want from Bond with the reboot. Just like with MR, TB, etc in their respective eras.

FWIW, I thought QOS found a nice seam between modern action thriller and old school Bond vibage. True, there was a grim undercurrent to it that IMO was organic to what Bond was going through. But I expect 23 to find it's vibe somewhere between QOS and the more angst-free CR, as befitting where Bond now is in his life/career. The one thing I do expect to continue is his bent against Quantum, don't know I'd call it personal but definitely an itch Bond feels he has to scratch.

23 could (and really should) end up being the modern equivalent of TB, and that ain't bad.

The whole 'dark and gritty nihilism' phrase is subsiding somewhat in Hollywood (i.e. THE GREEN LANTERN), and I predict Bond will follow in that fashion. They hit what audiences wanted with CR, but considerably less so with QOS, considering the mauling it got from the public and critics. So naturally they'll compensate for that, and head for something less joyless, humourless, aloof and neutered. Ideally something between CR, and pre-Dalton Bond.

QOS got mauled by the public? If half a billion BO is a bad thing, I wanna be very bad. Bond fans wanting something more DAF/MR-ish didn't care for it, but luckily they don't feed EON's coffers all that much these days. As for the Green Lantern film, remains to be seen how that one does (I think it'll be a decent superhero hit making a tad shy of $200 mil in the states, but the public, bless 'em, can be fickle liking/not liking this or that "deserving/undeserving" film).

[The Shark]

Shark, do you notice the films you mention are quite old? You really expect EON to make a modern Bond film along such lines? I get what you're saying, and quite enjoy many of the films you list, but I also have zero expectation that EON makes anything like them anytime soon. Movie business demands keeping up with the times, they seem to have hit on what audiences want from Bond with the reboot. Just like with MR, TB, etc in their respective eras.

FWIW, I thought QOS found a nice seam between modern action thriller and old school Bond vibage. True, there was a grim undercurrent to it that IMO was organic to what Bond was going through. But I expect 23 to find it's vibe somewhere between QOS and the more angst-free CR, as befitting where Bond now is in his life/career. The one thing I do expect to continue is his bent against Quantum, don't know I'd call it personal but definitely an itch Bond feels he has to scratch.

23 could (and really should) end up being the modern equivalent of TB, and that ain't bad.

The whole 'dark and gritty nihilism' phrase is subsiding somewhat in Hollywood (i.e. THE GREEN LANTERN), and I predict Bond will follow in that fashion. They hit what audiences wanted with CR, but considerably less so with QOS, considering the mauling it got from the public and critics. So naturally they'll compensate for that, and head for something less joyless, humourless, aloof and neutered. Ideally something between CR, and pre-Dalton Bond.

QOS got mauled by the public? If half a billion BO is a bad thing, I wanna be very bad.

One only has to look to at reviews on Amazon and IMDB to see what a sample of the public (the former probably being a more accurate representation) thought of the film. Box Office figures don't mean much when gauging what the public's consensus. Particularly after CASINO ROYALE - more generally Daniel Craig's Bond hitting a chord with the public (also to note, a large female demographic that previously wasn't interested in Bond was brought into the equation), and with the huge viral marketing campaign unleashed before and during the film's release period.

Shark, do you notice the films you mention are quite old? You really expect EON to make a modern Bond film along such lines? I get what you're saying, and quite enjoy many of the films you list, but I also have zero expectation that EON makes anything like them anytime soon. Movie business demands keeping up with the times, they seem to have hit on what audiences want from Bond with the reboot. Just like with MR, TB, etc in their respective eras.

FWIW, I thought QOS found a nice seam between modern action thriller and old school Bond vibage. True, there was a grim undercurrent to it that IMO was organic to what Bond was going through. But I expect 23 to find it's vibe somewhere between QOS and the more angst-free CR, as befitting where Bond now is in his life/career. The one thing I do expect to continue is his bent against Quantum, don't know I'd call it personal but definitely an itch Bond feels he has to scratch.

23 could (and really should) end up being the modern equivalent of TB, and that ain't bad.

The whole 'dark and gritty nihilism' phrase is subsiding somewhat in Hollywood (i.e. THE GREEN LANTERN), and I predict Bond will follow in that fashion. They hit what audiences wanted with CR, but considerably less so with QOS, considering the mauling it got from the public and critics. So naturally they'll compensate for that, and head for something less joyless, humourless, aloof and neutered. Ideally something between CR, and pre-Dalton Bond.

While I wish things could also take a brighter turn from QoS, though the grit seemed fitting at times, I can't help but feel that that middle ground between CR and pre-Dalton just won't exist in modern Bond film. The Dark Knight has pushed the action film genre into surreal realities filled with dark messages warning of governments and down-to-earth villains. I don't see the next Bond film being farther off the spectrum than CR. Maybe a shift from QoS BACK to CR but not off it. Not in this post 9/11 society.

I think THE DARK KNIGHT pushed that 'cool nihilism for teens' quotient as far as cinematic ally possible. Blockbusters seem to be getting somewhat more lighthearted as of late.

[Chief of SIS]

I think THE DARK KNIGHT pushed that 'cool nihilism for teens' quotient as far as cinematic ally possible. Blockbusters seem to be getting somewhat more lighthearted as of late.

Until the next batman flick that is. I don't know. Time will tell. I'm indifferent knowing that several different varieties work for Bond. Give me something a little more light hearted than CR and I will be smitten beyond belief.

[blueman]

Shark, do you notice the films you mention are quite old? You really expect EON to make a modern Bond film along such lines? I get what you're saying, and quite enjoy many of the films you list, but I also have zero expectation that EON makes anything like them anytime soon. Movie business demands keeping up with the times, they seem to have hit on what audiences want from Bond with the reboot. Just like with MR, TB, etc in their respective eras.

FWIW, I thought QOS found a nice seam between modern action thriller and old school Bond vibage. True, there was a grim undercurrent to it that IMO was organic to what Bond was going through. But I expect 23 to find it's vibe somewhere between QOS and the more angst-free CR, as befitting where Bond now is in his life/career. The one thing I do expect to continue is his bent against Quantum, don't know I'd call it personal but definitely an itch Bond feels he has to scratch.

23 could (and really should) end up being the modern equivalent of TB, and that ain't bad.

The whole 'dark and gritty nihilism' phrase is subsiding somewhat in Hollywood (i.e. THE GREEN LANTERN), and I predict Bond will follow in that fashion. They hit what audiences wanted with CR, but considerably less so with QOS, considering the mauling it got from the public and critics. So naturally they'll compensate for that, and head for something less joyless, humourless, aloof and neutered. Ideally something between CR, and pre-Dalton Bond.

QOS got mauled by the public? If half a billion BO is a bad thing, I wanna be very bad.

Box Office figures don't mean much when gauging what the public's consensus.

???

Shirley, you can't be serious. Ask Lionsgate if all the bad reviews their Saw franchise has gotten matters more to them/is a better gauge of the public's interest than the hefty piles of green they're sitting on, courtesy of said franchise. BO (these days that includes DVD sales/rentals) trumps any other measure in determining a film's popularity, always has, always will (the movie biz is, after all, a business).

[Lachesis]

I think THE DARK KNIGHT pushed that 'cool nihilism for teens' quotient as far as cinematic ally possible. Blockbusters seem to be getting somewhat more lighthearted as of late.

Until the next batman flick that is. I don't know. Time will tell. I'm indifferent knowing that several different varieties work for Bond. Give me something a little more light hearted than CR and I will be smitten beyond belief.

I really don't think 'The Dark Knight' was that dark overall, while the characters are darkly drawn the overall message is surprisingly opimistic, chaos is overcome and the people of Gotham almost prove themselves worthy of Bruce's efforts. Nolan is adept at finding the right balance he ensures people leave the theatre with a enough of a buzz to come back for more while providing eough of the meat that satisfies the more demanding cinephile along the way.

I'm not sure the gritty self introspective phase of the cinema is passed, we are still amid the Twilight generation after all, but as with all things there needs to be a regular injection of variety or it becomes stale and off putting. It's interesting to delve into Bond's psyche once in a while but too much and it becomes wallowing, this is illustrated well by Bond's 22 film run and Flemings own writing, so we have clear evidence that there is more than one way to present Bond.

[MattofSteel]

For me, it's never been a question of light vs. dark or jokey vs. humourless or bell bottoms vs. hairy chest. The spectrum on which the Bond films all fall is much more complicated than that. There may be extremes at either end (say, MR/DAD toward the left and CR/FRWL/QOS toward the right), but each film has its own unique place. And there are quality Bond films at many different points across the scale.

In my mind, you can put anything in a Bond film depending on the tone in which you present it. GF is the best example. Think about how ridiculous some of that content is, and yet, it somehow never feels totally impossible.

Wilson said once, "We always start out trying to remake FRWL and end up remaking TB." (I think). In my mind, DAD was an attempt at targeting Goldfinger instead, they just got carried away at the final stages and couldn't rein in the fantasy. Logic, quality, and realism escaped their grip.

I'd love to see them take another shot with Craig's Bond. Injecting some of the more fantastical elements while never deviating from an utterly realistic, "gritty" tone could produce one of the best Bond films of all time. CR had minor flashes of it, but you can still push it farther.

God, I hate the buzz word 'gritty'.

[Chief of SIS]

God, I hate the buzz word 'gritty'.

my gritty morning started gritty when I found that my grits were really gritty grits as I sat down to watch the gritty old western True Grit...

Edited by Chief of SIS, 30 November 2010 - 04:37 PM.

[BoogieBond]

For me, it's never been a question of light vs. dark or jokey vs. humourless or bell bottoms vs. hairy chest. The spectrum on which the Bond films all fall is much more complicated than that. There may be extremes at either end (say, MR/DAD toward the left and CR/FRWL/QOS toward the right), but each film has its own unique place. And there are quality Bond films at many different points across the scale.

In my mind, you can put anything in a Bond film depending on the tone in which you present it. GF is the best example. Think about how ridiculous some of that content is, and yet, it somehow never feels totally impossible.

Wilson said once, "We always start out trying to remake FRWL and end up remaking TB." (I think). In my mind, DAD was an attempt at targeting Goldfinger instead, they just got carried away at the final stages and couldn't rein in the fantasy. Logic, quality, and realism escaped their grip.

I'd love to see them take another shot with Craig's Bond. Injecting some of the more fantastical elements while never deviating from an utterly realistic, "gritty" tone could produce one of the best Bond films of all time. CR had minor flashes of it, but you can still push it farther.

God, I hate the buzz word 'gritty'.

Indeed, a Stunt done done for real, like the Crane freerunning in CR is thrilling, has its fantastical elements but is still done by real stuntmen rather than CGI. There are many examples where they got the balance right. I don' mind them using, as Wilson said remaking a FRWL or a TB or using that as a template, because bother have a bit of dark and light about them are are not too OTT. GF has more of the fantasy element about it and the bizarre like a korean karate expert henchman with a steel rimmed bowler hat and an Aston Martin with extras and Goldfinger cheating at cards etc. There are shades of fantasy and grit and should be in B23 as well.

[MattofSteel]

Does 'grit' even really classify film, unless you're chewing it?

[blueman]

For me, it's never been a question of light vs. dark or jokey vs. humourless or bell bottoms vs. hairy chest. The spectrum on which the Bond films all fall is much more complicated than that. There may be extremes at either end (say, MR/DAD toward the left and CR/FRWL/QOS toward the right), but each film has its own unique place. And there are quality Bond films at many different points across the scale.

In my mind, you can put anything in a Bond film depending on the tone in which you present it. GF is the best example. Think about how ridiculous some of that content is, and yet, it somehow never feels totally impossible.

Wilson said once, "We always start out trying to remake FRWL and end up remaking TB." (I think). In my mind, DAD was an attempt at targeting Goldfinger instead, they just got carried away at the final stages and couldn't rein in the fantasy. Logic, quality, and realism escaped their grip.

I'd love to see them take another shot with Craig's Bond. Injecting some of the more fantastical elements while never deviating from an utterly realistic, "gritty" tone could produce one of the best Bond films of all time. CR had minor flashes of it, but you can still push it farther.

QOS too: underground dams? And that Tosca sequence with the giant eye. Agree there's likely more of that to come in 23, bring on the script leaks!

[CardShark]

Purvis Wade and John Lorgan are offically writing the script

Edited by CardShark, 11 January 2011 - 08:04 PM.

[Brooky]

Not a happy bunny over P & W given their track record but Peter Morgan could work.

[jaguar007]

Not a happy bunny over P & W given their track record but Peter Morgan could work.

Morgan has been out for quite some time. John Logan replaced him.

[Leon]

Not a happy bunny over P & W given their track record but Peter Morgan could work.

Morgan has been out for quite some time. John Logan replaced him.

Which is alot worse in my estimate for potential.

[Shrublands]

Not a happy bunny over P & W given their track record but Peter Morgan could work.

Morgan has been out for quite some time. John Logan replaced him.

Yep.
Another thread that doesn’t need to remain sticky.

[Jim]

Not a happy bunny over P & W given their track record but Peter Morgan could work.

Morgan has been out for quite some time. John Logan replaced him.

Yep.
Another thread that doesn’t need to remain sticky.

Wish/command interface paradigm.

Although not uninteresting to note that this has been going for a coupla years - may suggest BeeTwoThree (as it's known by nobody) might have been through a bit of writing by now.

[Shrublands]

Although not uninteresting to note that this has been going for a coupla years

Two years at the top, makes Love is All Around look like a flash in the pan.

[Captain Tightpants]

I know people are still questioning the choice of John Logan as screenwriter, but I've found something interesting that I think will ease peoples' doubts. It's lifted from this article, 7 Terrible Early Versions of Great Movies (be aware - it's NSFW). GLADIATOR, the film Logan worked on which is his strognest case for the BOND 23 gig, comes in at number four:

#4 - Gladiator

After the success of Amistad, DreamWorks was ready to give screenwriter David Franzoni a three-picture deal to write whatever the hell he felt like, and what he felt like writing first was a script called Gladiator. It needed work.

What is this!?

One major difference is that the hero of the story, Maximus Decimus Meridius in the finished film, is called Narcissus Meridas in this draft. We can understand why they changed it. Narcissus is a surprisingly Greek name for a Spanish general in the Roman army, and it's a surprisingly wussy name for a gladiator. This is only made worse when he starts his gladiatorial career and is given the nickname "Narcissus the Good," which sounds about as manly and imposing as "Sissypants the Adequate."

In all fairness, the real Emperor Commodus really was killed by a man named Narcissus, and there's something to be said for historical accuracy. Then again, the real Commodus was strangled to death in his bathtub, and Narcissus was his wrestling coach, so historical accuracy probably wasn't what Franzoni was going for here. And that's good, because the script is full of what-the- moments in the descriptions:

"Shirtless, but wearing leather-fringed pants, he whirls a rope overhead like Hopaling-ing-Cassidy."

There's also a weird part where the Emperor tries to get Narcissus to take a dive in his big gladiator fight, and another part where Narcissus actually does take a dive, and then tries to slit his own wrists. Finally we have a really weird part where Commodus has the entire Senate, along with his own sister, cooked alive inside a giant brass bull [although this sort of this actually did happen; it was called a brazen bull and it was basically designed to roast people alive].

Oh, and this draft has a happy ending, with Narcissus living out his years in Africa with his very-much-not-dead family. You know, after killing the Emperor of Rome. In front of about ten thousand witnesses.

On the other hand ...

Sequences in the Coliseum feature a clown jumping over a bear, a naked midget riding an ostrich, and a bunch of chimpanzees dressed up as the Roman Senate. We don't need to tell you how awesome that would have been.

The article doesn't mention a) exactly when this script was produced, and when John Logan came on-board. It's entirely possible that this is the very first draft and Franzoni re-wrote it several times until it resembed the film that was actually produced, and Logan didn't come along until the final re-write and only had to change a few words. At the same time, it could have just as easily been the case that this was the script Franzoni turned in and DreamWorks had John Logan on speed-dial.

[Germanlady]

About Bond - starting around 5:20...great script.

http://extratv.warne..._and_aliens.php

[Col. Sun]

About Bond - starting around 5:20...great script.

http://extratv.warne..._and_aliens.php

Thx for the link. Fun interview, especially the horses!!!

Craig seems genuinely jazzed up about Bond 23 and says, "We have a fantastic script!" And I sense he means it, he's not just selling the party line.

[univex]

About Bond - starting around 5:20...great script.

http://extratv.warne..._and_aliens.php

Thx for the link. Fun interview, especially the horses!!!

Craig seems genuinely jazzed up about Bond 23 and says, "We have a fantastic script!" And I sense he means it, he's not just selling the party line.

I genuinely can´t tell. It´s probably due to Brosnan and his "We´ve got a better script than last time" pre films interviews

But yeah, it´s a very fun interview. One really gets the sense Craig´s really really happy (and why wouldn´t he be, right?)

Let´s hope the script is THAT good If they confirm that awesome cast, I guess we´ll know

Cheers

[Matt_13]

Glad to see he's ready to roll. October/November start date for shooting then. Not long now.

[Mr. Blofeld]

He sounds genuinely happy that, after a some-years hiatus, he's not being forced out like Dalton was -- he even says he "didn't think it might happen" and "never thought it was going to happen", with sort of a quietly surprised look on his face like he's genuinely shocked and grateful that EON stuck with him.

I know I am.

[Matt_13]

Definitely ready to go. When asked about the classic elements (Q, Penny, dark tone) he replies "We've got all those things, you'll just have to wait and see." http://www.ign.com/v...-bond-23-update

[univex]

Definitely ready to go. When asked about the classic elements (Q, Penny, dark tone) he replies "We've got all those things, you'll just have to wait and see." http://www.ign.com/v...-bond-23-update

Brilliant find And FINALLY, here we go! First feeling of true greatness: "Sam is a huge Bond fan, he understands the history of it...he´s so on top of it... the script is incredible..." Awesomeness is one the way people
And see what he did when asked about Mendes giving it a darker tone? Cryptic right? The man´s a poker player, although there was the ring fidling, the awkward movement of his head, the smirk, and particulary the seriousness when he said the script is incredible (in the other interview he did say it was fantastic, so ad that one the the awesomness feeling we get here)

Edited by univex, 19 July 2011 - 10:54 PM.

[sharpshooter]

Definitely ready to go. When asked about the classic elements (Q, Penny, dark tone) he replies "We've got all those things, you'll just have to wait and see." http://www.ign.com/v...-bond-23-update

Ooh, this is good. No Q or Moneypenny worked fine in CR and QoS. Though, if Craig is James Bond, which he most definitely is anyway, these characters do exist in his universe. Just as they exist in the novels, the Connery era and every other era. They've just been delayed. Villiers did serve the role of Moneypenny, but he wasn't Moneypenny. Just as they've got different continuities in Spider-Man, Batman, etc. All the characters are still there, but done in a different way. We'll get that here, I'm sure.