77 replies to this topic

[DR76]

Someone posted this article, criticizing movies with unhappy endings. Including in the author's article was a complaint that "ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE" had a tacked-on ending:

"It's Not Like Life Is Such a Veil of Tears"

[sharpshooter]

The guy has no idea what he is talking about regarding OHMSS, it's one of the best scenes in Bond history.

[Eurospy]

The movie itself is not as high on my list as to many Bond fans (I thought the romance didn't show us more than other Bond movies, to distinguish Tracy from other Bond Girls.)

But that ending is just quite simply perfect, no less, and when it comes to specific scenes, one of my favorite from the entire canon.

[HildebrandRarity]

They didn't do anything with the ending.

Bond just sits there and doesn't go after Blofeld.

It kinda feels like "what now"?

There's no resolution to that scene.

It's as if it never happened when you see Diamonds Are Forever. The justification for the ending would have been some form of resolution in DAF. But we get nothing. As if Eon thought OHMSS never happened and Lazenby never existed.

Why was there never a resolution to that final scene?

[Loomis]

They didn't do anything with the ending.

Bond just sits there and doesn't go after Blofeld.

You've just prompted me to look at my copy of Fleming's OHMSS, and I found that, in the book, Bond doesn't go after Blofeld because he gets knocked out by the impact of his car being forced off the road. By the time 007 comes round, Blofeld's long gone and it's just our hero, his dead wife and a cop.

An interesting little (but crucial) difference 'twixt book and film, no?

Lazenby's Bond remains conscious throughout, so what's his excuse for not pursuing Blofeld? Well, simply that he's a broken man - for the moment, he is no longer "James Bond", and it's understandable that he can do nothing whatsoever. His whole world has been blown apart, and not only can he not immediately seek revenge, but he can't even comprehend what's happened.

It's a perfect ending to the film. However, Fleming sits on the fence and wants to have it both ways. He wants to have his cake and eat it. He thinks of a "reason" why Bond doesn't go after Blofeld: Bond has been knocked cold. But we're obviously meant to think that, had he been conscious, Bond would have roared off in pursuit of Ernst Stavro, with his dead wife in the passenger seat.

Which would have been ridiculous.

Eon's ending is braver (insofar as it paints Bond as being, well, human, and not some kinda 24/7 superhero) and right on the money. As with the subtle but brilliant alteration of GOLDFINGER's Fort Knox scheme, this is an example of Eon actually improving upon Fleming.

Eon never gave a "resolution" at the start of DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER because the Lazenby era was over. OHMSS therefore exists in an alternate universe. OTOH, there's nothing in DAF that explicitly contradicts the idea that Connery is playing the same guy Lazenby played, but, as we all know, continuity has never exactly been Eon's strong suit.

If you're looking for a "sequel" to OHMSS, I find QUANTUM OF SOLACE fits the bill very nicely, obviously not in strict story and character terms but definitely in terms of dark tone and rich subtext.

[HildebrandRarity]

They didn't do anything with the ending.

Bond just sits there and doesn't go after Blofeld.

You've just prompted me to look at my copy of Fleming's OHMSS, and I found that, in the book, Bond doesn't go after Blofeld because he gets knocked out by the impact of his car being forced off the road. By the time 007 comes round, Blofeld's long gone and it's just our hero, his dead wife and a cop.

An interesting little (but crucial) difference 'twixt book and film, no?

Lazenby's Bond remains conscious throughout, so what's his excuse for not pursuing Blofeld? Well, simply that he's a broken man - for the moment, he is no longer "James Bond", and it's understandable that he can do nothing whatsoever. His whole world has been blown apart, and not only can he not immediately seek revenge, but he can't even comprehend what's happened.

But neither I nor any of the female partners i've had while i've owned the movie in either video, dvd or UE dvd form have ever BOUGHT the idea that Bond's world is blown apart here.

If the film had told a different story, i.e. Bond shags the girls FOR INFO ONLY, then mature people in mature relationships can believe that Bond's world has be blown apart...But when the story has Bond lining up the girls for more fun sex (like he does while they're outside curling) and then goes to Ruby's room for another joyous and hotly anticipated shag only 2 hours before proposing to Tracy in the barn...well, I think you've ed it up.

I keep saying that only a teenage male would buy Bond falling in love. I was a teanage male once who bought that idea at the time. I don't buy it anymore.

But eveyone one has an opinion, right?

[stamper]

Heresy. OHMSS is like CR, one of the two best Bond movies ever made. Nothing come close, and that includes the endings.

[Turn]

They didn't do anything with the ending.

Bond just sits there and doesn't go after Blofeld.

You've just prompted me to look at my copy of Fleming's OHMSS, and I found that, in the book, Bond doesn't go after Blofeld because he gets knocked out by the impact of his car being forced off the road. By the time 007 comes round, Blofeld's long gone and it's just our hero, his dead wife and a cop.

An interesting little (but crucial) difference 'twixt book and film, no?

Lazenby's Bond remains conscious throughout, so what's his excuse for not pursuing Blofeld? Well, simply that he's a broken man - for the moment, he is no longer "James Bond", and it's understandable that he can do nothing whatsoever. His whole world has been blown apart, and not only can he not immediately seek revenge, but he can't even comprehend what's happened.

But neither I nor any of the female partners i've had while i've owned the movie in either video, dvd or UE dvd form have ever BOUGHT the idea that Bond's world is blown apart here.

If the film had told a different story, i.e. Bond shags the girls FOR INFO ONLY, then mature people in mature relationships can believe that Bond's world has be blown apart...But when the story has Bond lining up the girls for more fun sex (like he does while they're outside curling) and then goes to Ruby's room for another joyous and hotly anticipated shag only 2 hours before proposing to Tracy in the barn...well, I think you've ed it up.

I keep saying that only a teenage male would buy Bond falling in love. I was a teanage male once who bought that idea at the time. I don't buy it anymore.

But eveyone one has an opinion, right?

Does this also mean you don't buy CR's romance between Bond and Vesper, either? I find it less believable than the one in OHMSS.

It is your opinion, but it is so different from what even non-fans of the series feel about OHMSS about tge romantic accent being natural that it's hard to buy anybody not accepting it. Tracy doesn't feel like a plaything, at least to me.

Maybe because it's Lazenby's Bond but every time I watch this film that romance between Bond and Tracy is such a highlight and it's clear Peter Hunt was trying to be true to the source material. He was going for more than just a spectacle Bond adventure.

If it was just another garden variety romance, I would have thought of nothing but "wow, Bond and Emma Peel together." But I can watch OHMSS again and again and never once think of Diana Rigg and The Avengers. It's a Bond film that works on so many levels and the romance is a great aspect of that.

[HildebrandRarity]

They didn't do anything with the ending.

Bond just sits there and doesn't go after Blofeld.

You've just prompted me to look at my copy of Fleming's OHMSS, and I found that, in the book, Bond doesn't go after Blofeld because he gets knocked out by the impact of his car being forced off the road. By the time 007 comes round, Blofeld's long gone and it's just our hero, his dead wife and a cop.

An interesting little (but crucial) difference 'twixt book and film, no?

Lazenby's Bond remains conscious throughout, so what's his excuse for not pursuing Blofeld? Well, simply that he's a broken man - for the moment, he is no longer "James Bond", and it's understandable that he can do nothing whatsoever. His whole world has been blown apart, and not only can he not immediately seek revenge, but he can't even comprehend what's happened.

But neither I nor any of the female partners i've had while i've owned the movie in either video, dvd or UE dvd form have ever BOUGHT the idea that Bond's world is blown apart here.

If the film had told a different story, i.e. Bond shags the girls FOR INFO ONLY, then mature people in mature relationships can believe that Bond's world has be blown apart...But when the story has Bond lining up the girls for more fun sex (like he does while they're outside curling) and then goes to Ruby's room for another joyous and hotly anticipated shag only 2 hours before proposing to Tracy in the barn...well, I think you've ed it up.

I keep saying that only a teenage male would buy Bond falling in love. I was a teanage male once who bought that idea at the time. I don't buy it anymore.

But eveyone one has an opinion, right?

Does this also mean you don't buy CR's romance between Bond and Vesper, either? I find it less believable than the one in OHMSS.

I buy the CR romance more because in the case of CR, Bond doesn't ask the girl to marry him only a couple or three hours after he's trying to get his rocks off with one of three girls he's lined up for the evening.

Yes, Bond professess his love for the girl (which is something similar to saying 'marry me' 40 years on) but he does not behave like a horny bachelor trying to get laid only 150 minutes earlier.

You don't get what i'm saying?

[HildebrandRarity]

Heresy. OHMSS is like CR, one of the two best Bond movies ever made. Nothing come close, and that includes the endings.

Heresy? It's as if Bond is a religion. You need to get a life beyond Bond.

I'll put up a hypothetical question...

Pretend you are the father of a 27 year old girl. And you know that the guy who's asked her to marry your daughter only 2 or 3 hours ago was trying to one of three girls just to get his rocks off.

Would you really believe that he was in love with your daughter? Would you let her marry the guy?

Heresy my balls.

I call 'em like I see 'em.

[stamper]

He was just doing his JOB. "I'm motivated by my duty"
Plus it was the 60's. Like, you know, another century.

[SolidWaffle]

I don't really like OHMSS because I don't think Lazenby did it justice. If I recall right, it's one of Laz's first acting bits. I think Connery would have been better, or a different actor altogether. OHMSS's book is much better than the film. I think Craig does a much better job in Casino Royale, if you'd like to compare the two.

I agree with HilderbrandRarity as well.

Edited by SolidWaffle, 07 December 2008 - 07:13 PM.

[Harmsway]

I kind of agree that in the film itself, the ending feels a bit tacked-on. That's not to say that that ending isn't terrific taken as a scene in and of itself. The scene is fantastic, and one of the best in franchise history.

But the film itself doesn't lay a strong enough foundation for it, largely because it's such a jovial, silly film in many respects. As a result the ending just feels kind of detached from the film we've been watching. It doesn't feel necessary (I'm not sure that's the right word, but it gets the idea across) like it does in Fleming's novel.

[Publius]

I kind of agree that in the film itself, the ending feels a bit tacked-on. That's not to say that that ending isn't terrific taken as a scene in and of itself. The scene is fantastic, and one of the best in franchise history.

But the film itself doesn't lay a strong enough foundation for it, largely because it's such a jovial, silly film in many respects. As a result the ending just feels kind of detached from the film we've been watching. It doesn't feel necessary (I'm not sure that's the right word, but it gets the idea across) like it does in Fleming's novel.

I almost agree with this sentiment, but what saves it for me is Tracy's rescue of Bond, their escape together, and then Bond's rescue of her at Piz Gloria. The film really rallies strongly at the end (although there is still silliness in the bobsled chase), IMO, including Lazenby doing some of his best acting, and that for me is what elevates it above the other 60s greats.

[Eurospy]

I kind of agree that in the film itself, the ending feels a bit tacked-on. That's not to say that that ending isn't terrific taken as a scene in and of itself. The scene is fantastic, and one of the best in franchise history.

But the film itself doesn't lay a strong enough foundation for it, largely because it's such a jovial, silly film in many respects. As a result the ending just feels kind of detached from the film we've been watching. It doesn't feel necessary (I'm not sure that's the right word, but it gets the idea across) like it does in Fleming's novel.

[stamper]

Oh god, soon people will swoon about QOS being superior to OHMSS... what next, DAD beats Goldfinger ?

[Strangways]

They didn't do anything with the ending.

Bond just sits there and doesn't go after Blofeld.

It kinda feels like "what now"?

There's no resolution to that scene.

It's as if it never happened when you see Diamonds Are Forever. The justification for the ending would have been some form of resolution in DAF. But we get nothing. As if Eon thought OHMSS never happened and Lazenby never existed.

Why was there never a resolution to that final scene?

The opening to DAF with Blofeld going into the mudstuff is followed after the titles by Bond telling M that his little adventure was "very satisfying". That's about all we get to wrap-up OHMSS until FYEO.

If you reshuffle the films, and just ignore the faces and ages of Bond, I think it works better this way:
YOLT - DAF - OHMSS - FYEO

YOLT followed by DAF = Connery continuity with no real finish to Blofeld in either film.
Then OHMSS as the finish to the Blofeld trilogy, ending sadly and seriously. With the serious FYEO next, Bond visits Tracy's grave and Blofeld is still in a neckbrace and is killed, even if you think it is silly with the delicatessen line and whatnot. But there is closure.

Also, Bond behaves himself like a widower, only sleeping with Countess Lisl in that film, and that just for information (we might infer that he sleeps with Melina after the film, but it is never revealed). Lisl's death on the beach is also very reminiscent of the beach fight at the beginning of OHMSS. After all this, Bond goes back to being Bond in LALD and the rest, if you like.

[Turn]

[quote name='HildebrandRarity' date='7 December 2008 - 18:07'
I buy the CR romance more because in the case of CR, Bond doesn't ask the girl to marry him only a couple or three hours after he's trying to get his rocks off with one of three girls he's lined up for the evening.

Yes, Bond professess his love for the girl (which is something similar to saying 'marry me' 40 years on) but he does not behave like a horny bachelor trying to get laid only 150 minutes earlier.

You don't get what i'm saying?
[/quote]
I get what your saying. But I think you're putting more into it than is there. I think he was just doing his job and being Bond to find out what he could by using the girls, which is one of his talents. There is no real proof he did anything with the Asian girl, just implied.

The other thing is I while I believe Bond was interested in Tracy, he wasn't completely serious about their relationship. He may have been using Draco to get to Blofeld. Otherwise if he was that smitten at that point he'd have given up going after Blofeld and let M hand the job to someone else. But Bond has always been more about duty than love. At that point I don't see Tracy as anything other than a like plaything he's had in the other films.

It all turned when he ran into Tracy in the village after his escape. She not only shows up in the nick of time, but shows bravery in helping him escape SPECTRE. This all clicks after the relief of the escape and he proposal was a spur of the moment thing after what he'd just been through. That's the magic of OHMSS for me, a combination of that type of writing and direction and why that romance works.

I can accept that more than the quick romance with Vesper. Although I will give that angle some slack as Bond was still new at being a double-oh and still somewhat immature in his actions.

[HildebrandRarity]

Oh god, soon people will swoon about QOS being superior to OHMSS... what next, DAD beats Goldfinger ?

QOS *is* better than OHMSS.

DAD is definitey *not* better than Goldfinger.

[doublenoughtspy]

I'll put up a hypothetical question...

Pretend you are the father of a 27 year old girl. And you know that the guy who's asked her to marry your daughter only 2 or 3 hours ago was trying to one of three girls just to get his rocks off.

Would you really believe that he was in love with your daughter? Would you let her marry the guy?

Heresy my balls.

I call 'em like I see 'em.

1) Draco wanted Tracy and Bond together BEFORE Piz Gloria.

2) Draco wasn't made aware of everything Bond did at Piz Gloria. I doubt Bond told him in the phone call.

3) Draco tells the story of Tracy's 1st husband and his mistress pretty nonchalantly. He says "one of" so there were multiple mistresses.

4) He knew who Bond was, he had to be aware of his reputation.


Now, onto your "problem" with the film.

I will say this again. In all caps this time.

BOND SLEEPS WITH THE PIZ GLORIA GIRLS TO GAIN INFORMATION. It's part of his job.

I will say this again too.

ITS IN THE NOVEL IAN FLEMING WROTE.

You seem to harp on the timing. Would it have been better if it was 15 minutes more of screen time between Bond getting information from the girls and proposing to Tracy? Half an hour? An hour?

Please enlighten me - is that he is sleeping with the women before asking Tracy to marry him (again it's from the book - perhaps you've heard of it?) - or that there isn't enough screentime between Bond sleeping with other women and asking Tracy to marry him?

It's already a 2 hour and 20 minute film - how would lengthening it make it more believable?

[DR76]

Lazenby's Bond remains conscious throughout, so what's his excuse for not pursuing Blofeld? Well, simply that he's a broken man - for the moment, he is no longer "James Bond", and it's understandable that he can do nothing whatsoever.

The interesting thing is that after Irma Bunt had fired upon the Aston-Martin, Bond re-enters the car with a determined expression on his face . . . as if he was prepared to go after Blofeld and Bunt. But that determination immediately ends when he is stunned by the discovery of Tracy's body. I believe that at that moment, he becomes a broken man, unable to do anything about Blofeld.

One of the finest moments in the entire franchise and to think it was acted out by an inexperienced Lazenby.

The other thing is I while I believe Bond was interested in Tracy, he wasn't completely serious about their relationship. He may have been using Draco to get to Blofeld. Otherwise if he was that smitten at that point he'd have given up going after Blofeld and let M hand the job to someone else. But Bond has always been more about duty than love. At that point I don't see Tracy as anything other than a like plaything he's had in the other films.

Actually, I suspect that Bond was attracted to Tracy from the moment he first set eyes upon her on the beach. I've always thought there was something romantic about that moment when Bond spots Tracy. That attraction becomes deeper when he "rescues" her at the casino. And by the time he and Draco meet, Bond admitted that he was attracted to Tracy and found her fascinating. But he also added that he was leery of serious relationships, due to his "bachelor's taste for freedom". I get the feeling that Bond tried to pretend that he was at best, superficially attracted to Tracy and his little foray with the patients at Piz Gloria was an attempt to support this. I think that by the time he was reunited with Tracy, he could no longer ignore his feelings about her.

Edited by DR76, 08 December 2008 - 06:16 AM.

[HildebrandRarity]

1) Draco wanted Tracy and Bond together BEFORE Piz Gloria.

2) Draco wasn't made aware of everything Bond did at Piz Gloria. I doubt Bond told him in the phone call.

3) Draco tells the story of Tracy's 1st husband and his mistress pretty nonchalantly. He says "one of" so there were multiple mistresses.

4) He knew who Bond was, he had to be aware of his reputation.


Now, onto your "problem" with the film.

I will say this again. In all caps this time.

BOND SLEEPS WITH THE PIZ GLORIA GIRLS TO GAIN INFORMATION. It's part of his job.

I will say this again too.

ITS IN THE NOVEL IAN FLEMING WROTE.

You seem to harp on the timing. Would it have been better if it was 15 minutes more of screen time between Bond getting information from the girls and proposing to Tracy? Half an hour? An hour?

Please enlighten me - is that he is sleeping with the women before asking Tracy to marry him (again it's from the book - perhaps you've heard of it?) - or that there isn't enough screentime between Bond sleeping with other women and asking Tracy to marry him?

It's already a 2 hour and 20 minute film - how would lengthening it make it more believable?

What do you want me to say?

That Bond professing his love for Tracy within three hours of being caught trying to fun Ruby is unconvincing?

I've already said that he s the girls for info the first go round. Once he's noted they're being brainwashed and noted they have almost no more info to give under conditions of brainwashing, he still lines them up for more ing the night he gets caught.

I think that part is an error in writing and only cements the idea that Bond has "a bachelor's taste for freedom".

Do you want me to say that the pacing of the 2h 20m movie is off?

I'll say it...the pacing if off...There's too much time taken visiting Hillary Bray and breaking into Gombolt's safe and not enough time given to Bond/Tracy between the time he gets caught in Ruby's room and the moment he asks her to marry him.

It would have been different had he not gone to Ruby's room...It would have been different had he got caught NOT trying to screw her again. If that were the case, then I would not need more time convincing me of Bond's sincerity in the barn.

Also it's irrelevant what Draco *wants* because what's more important is what I, as the viewer, *thinks* about Bond's sincerity...[Draco simply want's his child to fall in love and not be suicidal. If Bond can provide a cause for Tracy which allows her to not want to committ suicide, then Draco wouldn't care if Bond's been fun ing up at Piz Gloria.] As a viewer I want to be totally convinced that a guy with a bachelor's taste for freedom has actually 'turned'...But the story as told on screen does not do that.

What more do you want me to say, Charles?

[FlemingBond]

I have a headache from reading all this.

[doublenoughtspy]

That Bond professing his love for Tracy within three hours of being caught trying to fun Ruby is unconvincing?

You have a problem with the timing, I get that.

But please remember, Bond didn't know that Tracy would rescue him.

When he is sleeping with the girls, he has to maintain his cover. Banging them once and then not seeing them again would have angered them and brought more attention than he wanted. "Hilly I HAVE to see you..."

In the book - the girls start acting weird because of their competition for Bond/Sir Hillary and Bunt notices it.

My personal view is similar to DR76 - I think he is immediately attracted to Tracy from the start, and starts falling for her.

By the time he gets to Piz Gloria, he hasn't made his mind up.

Once she rescues him and drives an amazing ice race - he knows he's found his partner for life.

"If there was one thing that set James Bond really moving in life, with the exception of gun-play, it was being passed at speed by a pretty girl; and it was his experience that girls who drove competitively like that were always pretty - and exciting." - OHMSS, Chapter 2 - Gran Turismo

I must say I’m a bit confused by the fact that you think Bond having a 2nd go at the girls means he can’t possibly love Tracy.

If he was seducing pure as the driven snow virgins because he wanted to get his rocks off, that might be one thing – but these girls are coming to him. They’ve been stuck up on a mountaintop for god knows how long, and they’re horny.

Bond sleeps with women to get information, Tracy first slept with Bond to repay a debt – they both can separate sex from love.

[HildebrandRarity]

Charles, I simply love your undying enthusiasm for the film.

I'll be watching the movie on the night of the 24th as is tradition in my home.

Can't wait!

[doublenoughtspy]

I'll be watching the movie on the night of the 24th as is tradition in my home.

Each time is a renewed pleasure

[HildebrandRarity]

I'll be watching the movie on the night of the 24th as is tradition in my home.

Each time is a renewed pleasure

In fact..."so poetic a pleasure"...

[Double-Oh Agent]

Actually, I suspect that Bond was attracted to Tracy from the moment he first set eyes upon her on the beach. I've always thought there was something romantic about that moment when Bond spots Tracy. That attraction becomes deeper when he "rescues" her at the casino. And by the time he and Draco meet, Bond admitted that he was attracted to Tracy and found her fascinating. But he also added that he was leery of serious relationships, due to his "bachelor's taste for freedom". I get the feeling that Bond tried to pretend that he was at best, superficially attracted to Tracy and his little foray with the patients at Piz Gloria was an attempt to support this. I think that by the time he was reunited with Tracy, he could no longer ignore his feelings about her.

Good points. The only disagreement I have would be that Bond has his forays with the patients to support his bachelor's taste for freedom. I think he's just doing it to get information from them. But he clearly is attracted to Tracy because 1) she drives fast, 2) she can handle a car really well--in dry or snowy conditions, 3) when he first meets her, she is like a bird with a wing down--a common trait among the women Bond's really attracted to, 4) she doesn't panic in an emergency, she keeps her wits about her, 5) she's honest with morals as shown when she repaid her debt even though her sleeping with him "canceled" it out, and 6) well, she is good looking and sexy. So when she rescues him, along with the ensuing vehicle escape, it just brings it all to a head for Bond and he proposes.

[dee-bee-five]

They didn't do anything with the ending.

Bond just sits there and doesn't go after Blofeld.

It kinda feels like "what now"?

There's no resolution to that scene.

It's as if it never happened when you see Diamonds Are Forever. The justification for the ending would have been some form of resolution in DAF. But we get nothing. As if Eon thought OHMSS never happened and Lazenby never existed.

Why was there never a resolution to that final scene?

It didn't need it. That was the resolution and anything else would have destroyed it. OHMSS and QoS have, for me, the two best endings in the series - by miles.

Oh god, soon people will swoon about QOS being superior to OHMSS... what next, DAD beats Goldfinger ?

I think QoS is better than OHMSS. OHMSS was my favourite Bond film for decades (I'm old enough to have seen it in cinemas on its initial release), then CR came along and pipped it. As I think QoS is at least as good as CR, that means that OHMSS has slipped to third in my rankings, with CR and QoS battling it out for top slot. At the moment, I'm minded to put QoS just ahead of CR.

[StrangleTheCat]

Back on subject, perhaps the ending of OHMSS only looks as if it has been tacked on because of the inferior film that is DAF. However, you can understands EON's predicament, do they carry on the story with Connery or do they do what Connery does best.

I am sure the same would have been said about the ending of CR if Daniel Craig had not made QOS.