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The review you have ALL been waiting for... ;)


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#1 tim partridge

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 10:52 PM

I went in with low low low expections. Wilson and Brocolli's new Eon prods have a track record of getting it right with every other Bond movie they produce. They cannot resist the urge to "inject new blood" i.e. insecurely chase the latest genre fad at Bond's expense (XXX on Die Another Day and this time obviously Bourne). I was really expecting Greengrass/Bourne's dreary, out of date imitation "007: The Yourne Monotony". Signs all over half indicated that this is a stinker.


Now I am going to list my pros and cons:

CONS (to get the glaring stench out of the way):

*The film begins, going out of it's way to be anything but a Bond movie. It starts with a rather concerning, dreary Hans Zimmer Dark Knight wallpaper/keyboard string line as we move into the pre title car chase. AWFUL

*The car chase, as with every action scene in the movie, is shot for no reason in that predictably obnoxious Greengrass/Bourne handheld, long lens style with annoying (and pointless) over editing. Forster's main unit work is very gracefully photographed and bares absolutely no resemblence to Dan Bradley's "Bourne brand" action scenes. It's impossible to tell what's going on in any of the action scenes. Geography, time, choreography, proxemics and space are all terminated by needlessly overwobbly camerawork, cramped MOVING compositions and editing to the point where you don't know (or care) what is going on. Again, Forster's main unit work breathes elegance, so the clash is beyond having two totally different films edited together. If you thought the second unit work in TWINE stuck out like a sore thumb, Bradley makes Vic Armstrong look like Peter Hunt. Even Simon Crane's Panama boat chase suffers the same horribly pathetic direction, thus cancelling out the impressive stunt work. MASSIVE FAIL


Why Alexander Witt and Stuart Baird were not kept aboard for QOS is.... :)

*Editing:
Wow. It's horrible. Uniformly so. The classical but beautifully rhthymed pace of CR is tossed aside for imitation Bourne copycatting, at Bond's expense. Don't be fooled by the rabid fanboys into believing that this style is just building on what Peter Hunt created in the 60s, because that's just demented zealot nonsense. Hunt, while influenced by other filmmakers, literally set the standard for spy/action movie editing as we know it today. There was no genre template as Hunt designed it from scratch. On QOS there is no creation from scratch; the editing is just the Bourne template ripped off the shelf and imposed onto Bond, and for insecure fashion purposes only. It's exactly the same mentality as hiring Christian Wagner to make DIE ANOTHER DAY look like a Bruckheimer/Rob Cohen movie, and the results are just as painfully regrettable.

More on this later, but QOS is such a gorgeous looking movie with so many incredible set pieces and plot points that the unoriginal Bourne editing is a real detriment to the piece. Some of the epic camera moves in the desert for example, LAWRENCE quality, are mutiliated by choppy, innappropriate cutting that favours close ups even when every thing is clearly there in the master. It really ruins the pacing too. The HITH-HIKERS GUIDE style computer scene at MI6 suffers considerably (you'll know what I mean when you see the film).

To the best of my memory there is only one unbroken shot throughout QOS, and that is the back kissing with Fields. Lush, gorgeous and Bondian. See?

It seems pretty obvious that Marc Forster wouldn't know how to direct an action sequence if walked out in front of him, and that's fine. You need a decent second unit director and also maybe an extra action orientated editor to help you and your editor meet the deadline. Fine. However, the shallow Bourne transplant executed here was just pathetic.

*Title Sequence:
Hideous. The dancing girls were a welcome return to form, but that aside you really appreciate how faithful Daniel Kleinman had been to the Bond franchise up until this point. Not only is the image quality GRAINY as hell in this title sequence, but the appalling font choice and animation make it look like a bad Soderbergh Ocean's movie or even a Guy Ritchie movie flash advert. Yuck.

*MK12
There's a reason why the subtitles in Bond movies have kept to a very classical font for 40 years. Worse is the way the graphics are often blended to deceive you into thinking they are physically part of the locations (the hotels for example), which backfires horribly with all of the bad editing, which just makes it all confusing. In his defence, I can appreciate that Forster might have wanted to mess things up for Eon's recent tedency to add naff DVD-generated subititles to Bond movies! :)

*Visual Effects
Wow. What a drop in quality from CR. No miniatures, and it shows. For some reason the crap CGI plane from DIE ANOTHER DAY makes an appearance here too. Mix in lots of confusing Bourne edit selections and you get a cartoon head ache. I was stunned to see that even the CGI Camille had her tiny black dress sewn together as not to show her underwear when she became a watery computer graphic/plastic composite on the wides.

*Gunbarrel:
Craig is trying so hard to catch up with that mistimed gunbarrel (that curiously has no leaves in it, despite the fact the CGI artists could afford to write the title in afterwards, for no reason), that his shoulders sway and he walks like a Chav. Well done. :(


*References to Bond history:
Let's not even mention the Eaton homage, which is everything Jinx was to Ursula Andress (or is it referencing the TWINE title sequence)??





THE PROS

After the first twent minutes of non-stop dreary Bourne cut and paste action, not knowing where I am and no Bond movie in sight, I was about to walk out. Honestly, for anyone who hasn't seen the movie and is reading this, STICK IT OUT TIL THE OPERA!!!!! All of a sudden, I could overlook the horrific editing, and I had a ball. No, I am not being ironic. Crap second unit work and editing aside, this is a fantastic James Bond movie. The whole Tosca scene by the way is straight out of a Lewis Gilbert Bond movie, using a theatrical performance as the background to a fight (think pyramids scene from SWLM), ad it even ends with the "where's Feckish?" tie/ledge moment from SWLM!

Craig was fantastic, Dench (yes DENCH) was not annoying but functional, Olga delicious and Rory Kinnear as Tanner was very good too. Too bad the villain looked like Mark from Peepshow, but I can overlook that. ;)

One of Forster's strongest points as a director I felt was in his use of multiple dialogue subtitles within scenes. The taxi sequence for example, where you actually feel like you are in another country and not watching a postcard.

The film looks STUNNING too, and like the peak Bonds this film is driven by it's mise en scene as much as it's dialogue. We haven't seen Bonds look this visual since Gilbert was around, and Forster remains closest to Gilbert by way of Peter Hunt as director, btw. Ken Adam AND SYD CAIN are gloriously acknowledged (I love the our introduction to M on the tower block, echoing Cain's design for Billie Whitelaw's entrance on Hitchcock's FRENZY). Even Peter Murton's MWTGG lair interior finds itself materialised at the film's climax. I really hope Dennis Gassner returns for future Bond movies. It pains me to think how amazing he could have made the title location from CASINO ROYALE look instead of that budget Travelodge that ended up in the film.

Louise Frogley's costumes are also a fresh of colour coordinated fresh air. Note that everyone in the movie wears stark black and white outfits throughout the movie, a simple design tactic to help compliment Gassner's compelling set design.

Roberto Schaefer's photography is just unbelievable. To think this was shot super35 and it makes the anamorphic likes of TOMORROW NEVER DIES and DIE ANOTHER DAY look criminally unimpressive. If Schaefer had been allowed to shoot anamorphic (apparently his original wish) then... I just don't know. It's as though Schaefer and Forster sat in a room for a month, tube fed caffine watching YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, OHMSS and SWLM on a loop. Even the pools of light conversation in the cave was visually more arresting than say the entire stealth boat climax from TND.

I could have watched Camille and Bond sulking through that exotic desert alone for a good hour.




Anyway, a good ONE star gets whacked off for all of the Bourne insecurity. FOUR stars though for this one. If Alex Witt and Stuart Baird had stayed on for this instead of the Bourne name drop, I'm sure I'd be at four and half or even five stars on this first viewing.






My initial thoughts, may add more if requested. :D Admittedly, I was a bit exhausted having gotten all the negatives out that I have not written too much about the positives. Honestly though, when this film is great (which it is, 80%+ of the time), words cannot describe it for a mega Bond fan!

#2 Mr_Wint

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 11:06 PM

Ken Adam AND SYD CAIN are gloriously acknowledged (I love the our introduction to M on the tower block, echoing Cain's design for Billie Whitelaw's entrance on Hitchcock's FRENZY). Even Peter Murton's MWTGG lair interior finds itself materialised at the film's climax. I really hope Dennis Gassner returns for future Bond movies. It pains me to think how amazing he could have made the title location from CASINO ROYALE look instead of that budget Travelodge that ended up in the film.

Not many people have said anything about this. However, I felt that the set design was a major disappointment. In what way do you think the climax looks like Murton's desing? I couldn't see this. All the apartments looked boring like hell. And M's office had the blue boring colours from TND all over the place.

http://debrief.comma...mp;#entry946041

Apart from the set in the beginning of the film with Mr White, I couldn't see anything Adam inspired at all. Strange, since Forster talked so much about this.

#3 ACE

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 11:19 PM

I went in with low low low expections. Wilson and Brocolli's new Eon prods have a track record of getting it right with every other Bond movie they produce. They cannot resist the urge to "inject new blood" i.e. insecurely chase the latest genre fad at Bond's expense (XXX on Die Another Day and this time obviously Bourne). I was really expecting Greengrass/Bourne's dreary, out of date imitation "007: The Yourne Monotony". Signs all over half indicated that this is a stinker.

Now I am going to list my pros and cons:

CONS (to get the glaring stench out of the way):

*The film begins, going out of it's way to be anything but a Bond movie. It starts with a rather concerning, dreary Hans Zimmer Dark Knight wallpaper/keyboard string line as we move into the pre title car chase. AWFUL

*The car chase, as with every action scene in the movie, is shot for no reason in that predictably obnoxious Greengrass/Bourne handheld, long lens style with annoying (and pointless) over editing. Forster's main unit work is very gracefully photographed and bares absolutely no resemblence to Dan Bradley's "Bourne brand" action scenes. It's impossible to tell what's going on in any of the action scenes. Geography, time, choreography, proxemics and space are all terminated by needlessly overwobbly camerawork, cramped MOVING compositions and editing to the point where you don't know (or care) what is going on. Again, Forster's main unit work breathes elegance, so the clash is beyond having two totally different films edited together. If you thought the second unit work in TWINE stuck out like a sore thumb, Bradley makes Vic Armstrong look like Peter Hunt. Even Simon Crane's Panama boat chase suffers the same horribly pathetic direction, thus cancelling out the impressive stunt work. MASSIVE FAIL

Why Alexander Witt and Stuart Baird were not kept aboard for QOS is.... :)

*Editing:
Wow. It's horrible. Uniformly so. The classical but beautifully rhthymed pace of CR is tossed aside for imitation Bourne copycatting, at Bond's expense. Don't be fooled by the rabid fanboys into believing that this style is just building on what Peter Hunt created in the 60s, because that's just demented zealot nonsense. Hunt, while influenced by other filmmakers, literally set the standard for spy/action movie editing as we know it today. There was no genre template as Hunt designed it from scratch. On QOS there is no creation from scratch; the editing is just the Bourne template ripped off the shelf and imposed onto Bond, and for insecure fashion purposes only. It's exactly the same mentality as hiring Christian Wagner to make DIE ANOTHER DAY look like a Bruckheimer/Rob Cohen movie, and the results are just as painfully regrettable.

More on this later, but QOS is such a gorgeous looking movie with so many incredible set pieces and plot points that the unoriginal Bourne editing is a real detriment to the piece. Some of the epic camera moves in the desert for example, LAWRENCE quality, are mutiliated by choppy, innappropriate cutting that favours close ups even when every thing is clearly there in the master. It really ruins the pacing too. The HITH-HIKERS GUIDE style computer scene at MI6 suffers considerably (you'll know what I mean when you see the film).

To the best of my memory there is only one unbroken shot throughout QOS, and that is the back kissing with Fields. Lush, gorgeous and Bondian. See?

It seems pretty obvious that Marc Forster wouldn't know how to direct an action sequence if walked out in front of him, and that's fine. You need a decent second unit director and also maybe an extra action orientated editor to help you and your editor meet the deadline. Fine. However, the shallow Bourne transplant executed here was just pathetic.

*Title Sequence:
Hideous. The dancing girls were a welcome return to form, but that aside you really appreciate how faithful Daniel Kleinman had been to the Bond franchise up until this point. Not only is the image quality GRAINY as hell in this title sequence, but the appalling font choice and animation make it look like a bad Soderbergh Ocean's movie or even a Guy Ritchie movie flash advert. Yuck.

*MK12
There's a reason why the subtitles in Bond movies have kept to a very classical font for 40 years. Worse is the way the graphics are often blended to deceive you into thinking they are physically part of the locations (the hotels for example), which backfires horribly with all of the bad editing, which just makes it all confusing. In his defence, I can appreciate that Forster might have wanted to mess things up for Eon's recent tedency to add naff DVD-generated subititles to Bond movies! ;)

*Visual Effects
Wow. What a drop in quality from CR. No miniatures, and it shows. For some reason the crap CGI plane from DIE ANOTHER DAY makes an appearance here too. Mix in lots of confusing Bourne edit selections and you get a cartoon head ache. I was stunned to see that even the CGI Camille had her tiny black dress sewn together as not to show her underwear when she became a watery computer graphic/plastic composite on the wides.

*Gunbarrel:
Craig is trying so hard to catch up with that mistimed gunbarrel (that curiously has no leaves in it, despite the fact the CGI artists could afford to write the title in afterwards, for no reason), that his shoulders sway and he walks like a Chav. Well done. :(

*References to Bond history:
Let's not even mention the Eaton homage, which is everything Jinx was to Ursula Andress (or is it referencing the TWINE title sequence)??

THE PROS

After the first twent minutes of non-stop dreary Bourne cut and paste action, not knowing where I am and no Bond movie in sight, I was about to walk out. Honestly, for anyone who hasn't seen the movie and is reading this, STICK IT OUT TIL THE OPERA!!!!! All of a sudden, I could overlook the horrific editing, and I had a ball. No, I am not being ironic. Crap second unit work and editing aside, this is a fantastic James Bond movie. The whole Tosca scene by the way is straight out of a Lewis Gilbert Bond movie, using a theatrical performance as the background to a fight (think pyramids scene from SWLM), ad it even ends with the "where's Feckish?" tie/ledge moment from SWLM!

Craig was fantastic, Dench (yes DENCH) was not annoying but functional, Olga delicious and Rory Kinnear as Tanner was very good too. Too bad the villain looked like Mark from Peepshow, but I can overlook that. :D

One of Forster's strongest points as a director I felt was in his use of multiple dialogue subtitles within scenes. The taxi sequence for example, where you actually feel like you are in another country and not watching a postcard.

The film looks STUNNING too, and like the peak Bonds this film is driven by it's mise en scene as much as it's dialogue. We haven't seen Bonds look this visual since Gilbert was around, and Forster remains closest to Gilbert by way of Peter Hunt as director, btw. Ken Adam AND SYD CAIN are gloriously acknowledged (I love the our introduction to M on the tower block, echoing Cain's design for Billie Whitelaw's entrance on Hitchcock's FRENZY). Even Peter Murton's MWTGG lair interior finds itself materialised at the film's climax. I really hope Dennis Gassner returns for future Bond movies. It pains me to think how amazing he could have made the title location from CASINO ROYALE look instead of that budget Travelodge that ended up in the film.

Louise Frogley's costumes are also a fresh of colour coordinated fresh air. Note that everyone in the movie wears stark black and white outfits throughout the movie, a simple design tactic to help compliment Gassner's compelling set design.

Roberto Schaefer's photography is just unbelievable. To think this was shot super35 and it makes the anamorphic likes of TOMORROW NEVER DIES and DIE ANOTHER DAY look criminally unimpressive. If Schaefer had been allowed to shoot anamorphic (apparently his original wish) then... I just don't know. It's as though Schaefer and Forster sat in a room for a month, tube fed caffine watching YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, OHMSS and SWLM on a loop. Even the pools of light conversation in the cave was visually more arresting than say the entire stealth boat climax from TND.

I could have watched Camille and Bond sulking through that exotic desert alone for a good hour.

Anyway, a good ONE star gets whacked off for all of the Bourne insecurity. FOUR stars though for this one. If Alex Witt and Stuart Baird had stayed on for this instead of the Bourne name drop, I'm sure I'd be at four and half or even five stars on this first viewing.

My initial thoughts, may add more if requested. :) Admittedly, I was a bit exhausted having gotten all the negatives out that I have not written too much about the positives. Honestly though, when this film is great (which it is, 80%+ of the time), words cannot describe it for a mega Bond fan!

Great review tim partridge :) . I love your technical insight. Do you think the purported overediting is the reason why many people cannot get a handle on this film?

#4 tim partridge

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 11:21 PM

The Adam/Cain influence was definitely there in the retro modernist architectural choices. Those really angular, reoccuring geometrical patterns on most of the buildings chosen, from the Barbican straight through to the villain's lair exterior. It even influenced a lot of the photography compositions, complimenting the horizon, particularly with the silouhette work on the desert exteriors (Camille running across the roof, the military guys in deck chairs). The scen with Tim Piggott Smith was in a much more stately set, similar to Cain's goverment building interiors from OHMSS.

The slanted metal pillars in the villains lair reminded me of Murton's lair from MWTGG.

ACE-

The editing was certainly a major issue that all of my friends, even the casual cineamgoers have commented on with great disapproval. A friend told me his girlfriend was voicing her confusion quite frequently throughout the action scenes particularly.

As I said before, I think the greatest shame is that there were so many wonderful shots throughout QOS that were brutally mutilated through editing. So many epic shots screaming out to be held onto. Even simple stuff like close ups during dialogue seemed to have alternate camera angles from more or less the same angle on the same actor. I have a feeling IMO that had Matt Chesse cut the film on his own without having to worry about the Brand Bourne action then the cutting style would have been more conservative ala CR (or Forster's other movies).

Edited by tim partridge, 02 November 2008 - 11:55 PM.


#5 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 11:59 PM

CONS (to get the glaring stench out of the way):

If you thought the second unit work in TWINE stuck out like a sore thumb, Bradley makes Vic Armstrong look like Peter Hunt.


Priceless. :(

tim partridge, do you think the lightening cuts and confusion in the opening Aston chase and other action pieces in the first act were deliberately done to underline the main charachter's out-of-control, on-the-edge frame of mind? He's angry, he's not thinking like a 00, he's (initially) out for revenge and he's confused with what's happening, for example with respect to the faked Yusef death reveal in the safe-house.

Is it possible they chose this to be deliberate, echoing the hero's state of mind?

Or is what i'm suggesting merely an example of the demented fan boy justification you cite in your opening salvo? :)

#6 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:01 AM

*Visual Effects
Wow. What a drop in quality from CR. No miniatures, and it shows. For some reason the crap CGI plane from DIE ANOTHER DAY makes an appearance here too. Mix in lots of confusing Bourne edit selections and you get a cartoon head ache. I was stunned to see that even the CGI Camille had her tiny black dress sewn together as not to show her underwear when she became a watery computer graphic/plastic composite on the wides.

That wasn't actually CGI. The motion-control camera that was used is basically a camera that can be programmed to follow very specific movements to the millimetre. The exterior shots of the freefall were filmed on location and the path the camera followed was saved. Craig and Kurylenko then did Bodyflight, and the cameras were used to follow the actors against a green screen. The two pieces of footage were then merged together, rather like the car being thrown by the plane's backwash in CR.

#7 quantumofsolace

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:05 AM

According to those who have seen the movie 2,3 or 4 times the frantic editing is not a problem and helps the longevity of the film

#8 MarkA

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:07 AM

Thank you; thank you, for this review. Superbly written, superb insight. Though I think 80% is way too much for some really damaging stuff. Not just the editing but also the fundamental structure of the film for me. But you picked up on all the good stuff and I agree. Great on the Lewis Gilbert comparisons. I always thought his films looked fantastic because he worked with such great cinematographers (Freddie Young for one). Really spot on about the titles, abysmal after the Daniel Kleinman titles. Though funny enough I didn’t mind the font. Clever use of the gun barrel dots to make O’s. But above all a review that addresses the balance of all the hysterical near masterpiece reviews. I know you liked it more than me, but superbly written so I can appreciate your point of view.

Edited by MarkA, 03 November 2008 - 12:07 AM.


#9 tim partridge

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 01:12 AM

CONS (to get the glaring stench out of the way):

If you thought the second unit work in TWINE stuck out like a sore thumb, Bradley makes Vic Armstrong look like Peter Hunt.


Priceless. :(

tim partridge, do you think the lightening cuts and confusion in the opening Aston chase and other action pieces in the first act were deliberately done to underline the main charachter's out-of-control, on-the-edge frame of mind? He's angry, he's not thinking like a 00, he's (initially) out for revenge and he's confused with what's happening, for example with respect to the faked Yusef death reveal in the safe-house.

Is it possible they chose this to be deliberate, echoing the hero's state of mind?

Or is what i'm suggesting merely an example of the demented fan boy justification you cite in your opening salvo? :)


I just think they said to Bradley/Pearson "do your Bourne thing we hired you for", and that was that, plain and simple. Same as when they hired Christian Wagner on DAD, IMO.

Edited by tim partridge, 03 November 2008 - 01:13 AM.


#10 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 01:57 AM

If I may ask. Was there Bourne Ultimatum-style "Shakey Cam"? Or was it just close ups and lightening fast edits? There's a difference in my opinion.

Which of the two is it in the case of Q0S?

#11 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:12 AM

If I may ask. Was there Bourne Ultimatum-style "Shakey Cam"? Or was it just close ups and lightening fast edits? There's a difference in my opinion.

Which of the two is it in the case of Q0S?

Watching trailers, TV spots, and the footage that has been release, there is actually a shaky camera in there, but there's actually an explanation for it: during the car chase, the camera only ever shakes when its inside or mounted on the Aston, and usually only when it takes a hit. I don't know if you've been in a car accident before, but you goget beaten up quite a bit. The camera is showing us from Bond's POV; for everything else, the camera appears quite stable. Likewise in the boat chase; the only time the camera shakes is when it's quite clear the camera is on Bond and Camille's boat.

#12 Vauxhall

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:14 AM

Precisely right, Captain. The camera shakes, but there isn't any genuine shaky cam that I could identify - if that makes sense.

#13 Mister E

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:16 AM

Precisely right, Captain. The camera shakes, but there isn't any genuine shaky cam that I could identify - if that makes sense.


Yeah it doesn't seem like that nauseating, pain in the :(, shaking for the sake of shaking work.

#14 tim partridge

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:19 AM

The over editing was all over the film, save the all-in-one-shot scene where Bond kisses Field's back (she was great btw and wonderfully directed in a hilarious costume).

There was Greengrass Bourne shakeycam whenever it cut to second unit action work, really cramped close up compositions (be they armed combat scenes or boat and car chases) plus overediting.

Forster's style is so graceful and thoughtfully composed compared to Bradley's 2nd unit (which is literally just Greengrass Bourne action dumped into QOS). As has been suggested by others, I get the impression that they hired Richard Pearson because he had dealt with cutting Bradley's Bourne action before, and Forster was not confident handling the action scenes at all. I also think in my opinion that Forster and his editor Mark Chesse knew that the Bourne action was going to clash badly with their own filmmaking style, so they let the overediting extend to all of the dramatic scenes beyond the action sequences too, in an attempt to blur everything together and have you believe one director oversaw the whole thing. Even within the same scene you go from all of these lushly composed and controlled dolly shots and artsy compositions (shot by Forster and Schaefer) to these longer focal length handheld shakeycam sequences, all shot tight in and blurry, unlike the genuine Forster footage. It's like the TWINE ski scene multiplied by a billion in terms of clashing footage, and all of the overediting in the world cannot disguise it.

Don't expect the seamless transitions between first and second unit action scenes like you saw in CR, GoldenEye or anything shot by Arthur Wooster for Glen or Glen/Day on the Gilbert movies. We're right back in Vic Armstrong territory.

#15 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:20 AM

Well, the reason I ask is that I saw Bourne Ultimatum twice...when I *could* have seen it more than three or four times. And this was because I was nearly getting an epileptic fit.

They use shakey-cam to supposedly create the effect of the audience "being in the middle of the action". That's a bull[censored] reason for using it. I wanted to "leave" the action in the case of Ultimatum.

I think it's fine to use the device if a vehicle is being smashed into...but Bourne Ultimatum over used it and was poorer for it. Bourne Identity, however, was outstanding...and it employed fast cuts, not "Shakey-Cam"...or the over-usage of it.

#16 Mister E

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:22 AM

The over editing was all over the film, save the all-in-one-shot scene where Bond kisses Field's back (she was great btw and wonderfully directed in a hilarious costume).

There was Greengrass Bourne shakeycam whenever it cut to second unit action work, really cramped close up compositions (be they armed combat scenes or boat and car chases) plus overediting.

Forster's style is so graceful and thoughtfully composed compared to Bradley's 2nd unit (which is literally just Greengrass Bourne action dumped into QOS). As has been suggested by others, I get the impression that they hired Richard Pearson because he had dealt with cutting Bradley's Bourne action before, and Forster was not confident handling the action scenes at all. I also think in my opinion that Forster and his editor Mark Chesse knew that the Bourne action was going to clash badly with their own filmmaking style, so they let the overediting extend to all of the dramatic scenes beyond the action sequences too, in an attempt to blur everything together and have you believe one director oversaw the whole thing. Even within the same scene you go from all of these lushly composed and controlled dolly shots and artsy compositions (shot by Forster and Schaefer) to these longer focal length handheld shakeycam sequences, all shot tight in and blurry, unlike the genuine Forster footage. It's like the TWINE ski scene multiplied by a billion in terms of clashing footage, and all of the overediting in the world cannot disguise it.

Don't expect the seamless transitions between first and second unit action scenes like you saw in CR, GoldenEye or anything shot by Arthur Wooster for Glen or Glen/Day on the Gilbert movies. We're right back in Vic Armstrong territory.


As long as Forster's work makes up for it, I'll be happy but this is disappointing.

#17 Royal Dalton

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:24 AM

A nice well-balanced review, Tim. I'm glad you (mostly) liked it. :(

#18 Mister E

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:26 AM

They use shakey-cam to supposedly create the effect of the audience "being in the middle of the action". That's a bull[censored] reason for using it. I wanted to "leave" the action in the case of Ultimatum.



I never understood the "middle of action" thing either. Film is about presentation, exactly what real life isn't. Everything is sloppy and jumbled in reality. Anyone who has gotten into a fight or has been in a rowdy crowd knows that it's confusing and unclear from your perspective, why the hell do you want to show that in a movie ? :(

#19 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:28 AM

There was Greengrass Bourne shakeycam whenever it cut to second unit action work, really cramped close up compositions (be they armed combat scenes or boat and car chases) plus overediting.

Even within the same scene you go from all of these lushly composed and controlled dolly shots and artsy compositions (shot by Forster and Schaefer) to these longer focal length handheld shakeycam sequences, all shot tight in and blurry, unlike the genuine Forster footage.


Hey tim, are you quite sure you're using the word/term "shakeycam" correctly? As I said, there's a difference between "Shakey-Cam" and the camera shaking when a movie object get's shaken.

I hope you've got your terminology mixed up because...well...i'm just going to have to wait for 11 days and see myself.

#20 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:29 AM

Precisely right, Captain. The camera shakes, but there isn't any genuine shaky cam that I could identify - if that makes sense.


Yeah it doesn't seem like that nauseating, pain in the :(, shaking for the sake of shaking work.

From watching the Bourne films, I got the impression that Greengrass shot it like he was making a documentary or if he were someinvestigative journalist who was always trying to keep up with Bourne. But from seeing snippets of Quantum of Solace on the interweb, I've noticed the shaking comes from a more "natural" perspective; if the camera shakes, it's for good reason, and often from something environmental like the Aston being sideswiped into the armco by the lorry during the tunnel sequence. In comparison, when the Alfa 159 wipes out and does a few pirouettes over the edge of the cliff, the camera is perfectly stable because it's positioned from an adjacent cliff face or in a helicopter-mounted gyroscope that is not being pummeled by lorries or bullets and so is perfectly stable.

I can understand the reasons between the Bourne series and Bond for using the method, even if I don't like it in Bourne - I think it's often used to cover up otherwise bland action; the Moscow chase is the only real action scene across the films - and I can see why people draw comparisons between the two for that reason. But while the technique might be similar, the context of it is completely different, which is something that seems to be lost on everyone decrying Bond for copying Bourne.

#21 Harmsway

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:39 AM

Forster's style is so graceful and thoughtfully composed compared to Bradley's 2nd unit (which is literally just Greengrass Bourne action dumped into QOS).

You do know that Forster shot most of the action himself, right? Bradley only shot two sequences, one being the opening car chase. I can't remember which other one.

I also think in my opinion that Forster and his editor Mark Chesse knew that the Bourne action was going to clash badly with their own filmmaking style, so they let the overediting extend to all of the dramatic scenes beyond the action sequences too, in an attempt to blur everything together and have you believe one director oversaw the whole thing.

What ridiculous speculation.

Even within the same scene you go from all of these lushly composed and controlled dolly shots and artsy compositions (shot by Forster and Schaefer) to these longer focal length handheld shakeycam sequences, all shot tight in and blurry, unlike the genuine Forster footage.

I think you're making some mighty big speculation about whose footage is what, and I don't think it's fair. Not only because Forster shot most of the action scenes himself, but because if you look on the docs, you can see Bradley shoot a lot of the action with the "dolly shots" and "artsy compositions."

#22 tim partridge

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:39 AM

Hey tim, are you quite sure you're using the word/term "shakeycam" correctly?


Yes.

Imagine the editing-driven fight/action scenes from Greengrass' Bourne were airlifted and dropped into a Bond movie.

#23 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:45 AM

Forster's style is so graceful and thoughtfully composed compared to Bradley's 2nd unit (which is literally just Greengrass Bourne action dumped into QOS).

You do know that Forster shot most of the action himself, right? Bradley only shot two sequences, one being the opening car chase. I can't remember which other one.


Yes. Harmsway is correct. The second one was the aerial dog fight over Baja/"Bolivia".

#24 tim partridge

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:52 AM

Forster's style is so graceful and thoughtfully composed compared to Bradley's 2nd unit (which is literally just Greengrass Bourne action dumped into QOS).

You do know that Forster shot most of the action himself, right? Bradley only shot two sequences, one being the opening car chase. I can't remember which other one.

I also think in my opinion that Forster and his editor Mark Chesse knew that the Bourne action was going to clash badly with their own filmmaking style, so they let the overediting extend to all of the dramatic scenes beyond the action sequences too, in an attempt to blur everything together and have you believe one director oversaw the whole thing.

What ridiculous speculation.

Even within the same scene you go from all of these lushly composed and controlled dolly shots and artsy compositions (shot by Forster and Schaefer) to these longer focal length handheld shakeycam sequences, all shot tight in and blurry, unlike the genuine Forster footage.

I think you're making some mighty big speculation about whose footage is what, and I don't think it's fair. Not only because Forster shot most of the action scenes himself, but because if you look on the docs, you can see Bradley shoot a lot of the action with the "dolly shots" and "artsy compositions."



Whoever shot what, IMO 80% of the movie looks and plays like somewhere between a Lewis Gilbert Bond movie and a Marc Forster film. The remaining good 20% (all of it wall to wall action) looks identical to those nauseating Bourne Greengrass fight sequences. It does invite questioning when the footage does not gel at all to the point of being beyond intrusive and upsetting the narrative flow. Moreso when two key Greengrass Bournedom players were seemingly headhunted for the movie. Maybe Forster did shoot most of the action himself, maybe his mother did? Who knows, but IMO there was obviously a very concious decision to ape the action from the Greengrass Bourne movies, and it seriously conflicts with the bulk of the picture, while also looking like nothoing from any previous Bond or Forster movie. Bottom line is that this stuff should be seamless, like it was in CR and the vast majority of all Bonds that came before it.

That's just my opinion; the opinion of someone who has actually seen the film, btw.

Edited by tim partridge, 03 November 2008 - 03:03 AM.


#25 Kristian

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 03:01 AM

Actually, I wasn't waiting for this review at all. Not even close. Not even semi-close.

I'm waiting for Harmsway's review with bated breath.

Go, H. Don't think I haven't forgotten that you were a comrade-in-arms in defending Camille's fate after that silly IMDB review all but declared that she would bite the dust (and have Greene survive and Bond quit the service - A-frickin'-GAIN!!!) Thank. God.

I'm waiting...

#26 Royal Dalton

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 03:04 AM

Nice threadcrap there...

#27 JimmyBond

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 03:06 AM

Nice threadcrap there...



Pot, I believe the kettle is calling.

#28 Royal Dalton

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 03:07 AM

And there's another one...

#29 Kristian

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 03:16 AM

Nice threadcrap there...


You being an expert on ThreadCrap, I'll defer to your judgement. Or lack of.

Toodles, Oxy-Face...

#30 tim partridge

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 03:17 AM

I must say that I am quite suprised that Mr. Bradley apparently only shot two sequences for the movie (car and plane chases). Granted, these are easily the most extremely Bourne-ified moments in the movie, but that must rank as the least amount of sequences handled by a second unit director on a Bond film (outside of the car Derby from OHMSS).

I do wonder how much of an influence Richard Pearson had over the action scenes that Bradley was not in charge of. They really are more like Greengrass Bourne than anything Forster and Chesse have ever done before. As I said above, even the Panama boat scene is very much in that style. It really does make you wonder, though I guess we'll never know the story...

It is just a shame IMO that the action scenes were not as beautiful looking as the bulk of the movie, regardless of who shot what. It would have been a feast for the eyes.

Edited by tim partridge, 03 November 2008 - 03:22 AM.