Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

Review based on basic principles


18 replies to this topic

#1 pgram

pgram

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 621 posts
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan

Posted 01 November 2008 - 09:51 PM

I watched the film yesterday night. And enjoyed it. Will watch it again, at least once during the week. What I 'm writing here will mosty sound negative, but I only chose these points as these 'd make an interesting discussion.

So, now, to the review...

It has always been my belief that James Bond films should walk the fine line between serious films and not-so-serious ones (I won't use the word comedies, because it 'd be misleading). Action films, thrillers, whatever, but never taking themselves too seriously. And the old ones didn't, in a way that it was impossible to mock them, since they (subtly) mocked themselves first. In a way that made them almost sureal. To break into Fort Knox could be the subject of any film. To break into Fort Knox and NOT steal anything, that's pure Bond. To have the Russians lay a trap for a British agent could be in any film, but for the agent to fall in the trap exactly BECAUSE he knows it 's a trap, that 's Bond. I could go on...

To be able to balance on this fine line is the most difficult part. Make it more serious and you get Harry Palmer. Make it more absurd, you get The Avengers. In this long run of the Bond saga, the balance has been lost quite a few times (the worst being the Brosnan period, when Bond became a compilation of cliches, completely indistinguishable from, say, Johny English).

Casino Royale had this element of balance, mainly due to the main idea of the story: don't kill Le Chiffre, win the cards game and let his own people do it. Pure Fleming. This, combined with the characterisation, provided a good film (still, I have a lot of complaints about it, but that's not our subject now).

I was afraid that QoS would take itself too seriously; it was evident from all the interviews during production. And it did. In that sense, this unique feeling that you can get only from a bond film, was lost.

But still, does that make it a bad film?

Not at all.

But, there are other things that make this film un-Bondish. I will write down, in a random order, things that I thought worth commenting on, good or bad.

To start with, Bond is a mythological character. All this making him a real person is nonsense. And the world he lives in, albeit very similar to ours, is just a paralel universe. You can't have official governments being in the wrong in a Bond film. Or intelligence services. Bond was, essentially born during WWII, and things were clear then-good was good, bad was bad. Things are clear in mythology- the battle between good and evil. And in this film, they weren't. This was not a bond film, it was a Jack Ryan film.

Secondly, there was too much action. Granted, it was quite well done, in most cases, but still, no proper story development, no time for the audience to understand what's going on, or to enjoy the locations. A huge emphasis on details, but the greater picture was missed. In a way, for this reason (and for other obvious ones), this wasn't a Bond film, it was a Jason Bourne film.

Thirdly, vital elements were missing. Villains were weak. I like Amalric's performance, but he looked to easy to bring down. The rest were just non-existent. Elvis? What the hell was he about? Or Yusef, they only probably remembered him after they had finished shooting. Medrano was colourless, the moustached CIA guy shouldn't be there in the first place (look above). And considering the insider in MI6 was Craig Mitchell, one can only assume the villain in bond 23 will be Jewish-Japanese millionaire David Satsuki... Seriously, he will, if Purvis and Wade are not removed immediately!

Then there were the usual nods to the previous films. It was the car chase in the pts which reminded of DN, the set at the end that was Ken Adamesque, the use of FYEO short story (as if it wasn't done before). There were a couple that were good, I have to say. Tanner is back. Bond uses the alias Stirling. Universal exports.

It was also the first Bond film that had an anti-capitalist (if not socıalıstic) approach. The bad capitalists were present before, but only now did you get to see the poor people of Bolivia suffering because of them. Stories were based on real facts before, but only now do you hear from the villains a rationale which actually was used by official governments and triggered the anti-globalisation movement. I happened to watch the film with a communist friend who is an expert in South American politics and he said it was the first 007 film he really enjoyed. Qos is officially a political film. Which takes it out of the realm of escapism, where it should belong. It is not a Bond film, it's a Ken Loach film. And as much as I appreciate him, this is not what i want to see in a bond film.

Another thing I found interesting, in a good way, was the attention to detail, in characterisation. For example, Bond drinks Martinis, but doesn't call them Vespers any more, even though the recipe is the same. Or, when he 's in Yusef's appartment, he 's in the shadows, resembling the pts of CR, sort of closing a circle. Well done! Or at the burning room, the sequence reminds Vesper in the shower. Another nice touch.

On the plus side, product placement was not annoying in this one. Maybe because we had to watch many ads of the products prior to the beginning. Still, better before than during the film...

Action sets are good. What really didn't work was the parachute scene, which brought back memories from DAD... Or should i say, nightmares? The whole aeroplane scene was unnecessary and weak. Didn't enjoy the boat scene very much, either. Well made, but not exotic enough. The car chase in the beginning and the Sienna chase were excellent.

Still, the horse race, which i thought would give an excellent background for an exciting scene (a la OHMSS with the xmas celebrations) went completely unexploited. As was Tosca. Another big opportunity for an exciting scene, which was underused. I blame both on the unjustified decision to make the film ridiculously fast and short.

Title sequence was ok, they edited the crappy song to torture us for a shorter time. Was a bit more style-over-substance, but then again, one could argue that this is the whole point of the title sequence. I, personally, think the title sequences should be like dream sequences, mainly involving sex, but, with that song, it 'd be more like a nightmare...

The score was bad. The only two contributions of Arnold in the Bond canon was Surrender and the CR soundtrack, which was decent. I believe he can be decent when he has a story to tell, but in this film, due to the non-stop action, he didn't. So it was mainly noise. Still, to his credit, he used some cues of CR when he should, which did work.

The girls were the most boring female leads in Bond history. Agent Fields' presence was too short (she could have been interesting). Camille was boring. Kurylenko is pretty, but only like the next model. Her story about revenge was the same old. It 's no wonder Bond didn't :( her. It wasn't about Vesper. It was about her being boring.

The biggest let-down in the film is the anti-climactic climax sequence. I can't say it was the worst in the series, due to the Brosnan period. But it was too easy to get to Medrano, too easy to get to Greene. You 'd expect these people to have security. When Bond and Camille are outside the hotel, i thought: let's see how they 're going to make it. They just walked in, killed everyone, blew up the building, took Greene with them and left. Boring...

And one last comment: the movies industry is mainly interested in the first weekend box-office outcome, and QoS has all the ingredients (marketing and all) that 'll make it a huge hit (it already is). But success for a bond film is assessed after years of watching the film again and again. And i find that it's mainly the quiet scenes, not the action ones, that I watch for the 100th time. The defining Bond moments. And as an action packed flick, QoS doesn't have many. Unlike CR.

Edited by pgram, 01 November 2008 - 09:58 PM.


#2 Harmsway

Harmsway

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 13293 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 10:06 PM

I disagree that Bond can't have governments and his own agency called into moral question. It's not like Fleming painted the world in black-and-white. In CASINO ROYALE, he does quite the opposite, and Bond has a crisis over making sense of the world where good and evil isn't so clearly defined.

#3 MkB

MkB

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3864 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 10:14 PM

Yes Harmsway, but in a sense I can see where pgram is coming from: in Fleming, after CR, when Bond is Bond, he doesn't really question the system, if memory serves.

But I disagree with the idea that this "dark grey / light grey" real world would not be compatible with Bond, and that he should stick to a "black / white" world. Mythological characters may have to deal with treason, why not Bond? One thing though: people in the government can be traitors, but M can't. M is Bond's lighthouse / landmark, the only person he can always rely on and be faithful to (I would be very upset if there turned out to be a Mission: Impossible like twist in a Bond film). I mean, Bond and M can disagree or even fight, but Bond always know where M stands. No treason.

#4 HildebrandRarity

HildebrandRarity

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4361 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 10:15 PM

Villains were weak. I like Amalric's performance, but he looked to easy to bring down... Or Yusef, they only probably remembered him after they had finished shooting.


I was under the impression that right from the point in the Siena safehouse it was Yusef who was Bond's primary interest in this movie. It's Yusef character around which Bond is supposed to get his quantum of solace with respect to Vesper...and that Dominc Greene is merely a secondary consideration in this movie. No?

#5 Mr_Wint

Mr_Wint

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2406 posts
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 01 November 2008 - 10:17 PM

On the plus side, product placement was not annoying in this one. Maybe because we had to watch many ads of the products prior to the beginning. Still, better before than during the film...

Yes, in that way, it was a major improvement after CR.

But success for a bond film is assessed after years of watching the film again and again. And i find that it's mainly the quiet scenes, not the action ones, that I watch for the 100th time. The defining Bond moments. And as an action packed flick, QoS doesn't have many. Unlike CR.

The problem is that the film goes on for 1 hour and 45 min. And yet there is not a single memorable moment. Not one single scene is particularly distinctive or what I would call "classic". What will people remember from this?

The biggest let-down in the film is the anti-climactic climax sequence. I can't say it was the worst in the series, due to the Brosnan period. But it was too easy to get to Medrano, too easy to get to Greene. You 'd expect these people to have security. When Bond and Camille are outside the hotel, i thought: let's see how they 're going to make it. They just walked in, killed everyone, blew up the building, took Greene with them and left. Boring...

I agree with you! However, what Brosnan climax do you think is worse than this? For me, I can easily say that the climax in GE, TND, and TWINE was much, much better than this.

#6 spynovelfan

spynovelfan

    Commander CMG

  • Discharged
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5855 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 10:26 PM

On this point about the CIA being in the wrong. I don't think this is the first time that sort of thing has happened - Trevelyan brings up the Betrayal of the Cossacks and that was a real event in which Britain took part and it's pretty hard to justify. His suggestion that Bond drink to drown out the cries of the men he has murdered is also along those lines - in some sense, the inclusion of the line acknowledges a truth.

I agree that this explored darker territory than usual - although I'd say it hinted at le Carre or (Graham) Greene rather than Len Deighton or the films of his books, both of which have plenty of sardonic humour and absurdities in them - but I didn't think it got anywhere close to 'not being a Bond film'. You say to break into Fort Knox and NOT steal anything is Bond. You could do the same here. To be met at the airport in La Paz by the local MI6 agent and told to get back on the plane is the sort of thing that you would find in any film. For that agent to be a beautiful young English rose (named Strawberry Fields!) who sleeps with Bond within a few minutes can only happen in a Bond film. To check into a seedy hotel in La Paz as teachers on a sabbatical could happen in any film... You see where I'm going, I'm sure. :(

#7 quantumofsolace

quantumofsolace

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1563 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 10:32 PM

The problem is that the film goes on for 1 hour and 45 min. And yet there is not a single memorable moment. Not one single scene is particularly distinctive or what I would call "classic". What will people remember from this?


I don't think i'll forget much . It was almost the perfect Bond film.
Surely Bond fans(and it is a film for them i felt, more than for the average moviegoer who could fingd it confusing) will remember the scenes with Mathis

#8 pgram

pgram

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 621 posts
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan

Posted 01 November 2008 - 10:38 PM

On the plus side, product placement was not annoying in this one. Maybe because we had to watch many ads of the products prior to the beginning. Still, better before than during the film...

Yes, in that way, it was a major improvement after CR.

But success for a bond film is assessed after years of watching the film again and again. And i find that it's mainly the quiet scenes, not the action ones, that I watch for the 100th time. The defining Bond moments. And as an action packed flick, QoS doesn't have many. Unlike CR.

The problem is that the film goes on for 1 hour and 45 min. And yet there is not a single memorable moment. Not one single scene is particularly distinctive or what I would call "classic". What will people remember from this?

The biggest let-down in the film is the anti-climactic climax sequence. I can't say it was the worst in the series, due to the Brosnan period. But it was too easy to get to Medrano, too easy to get to Greene. You 'd expect these people to have security. When Bond and Camille are outside the hotel, i thought: let's see how they 're going to make it. They just walked in, killed everyone, blew up the building, took Greene with them and left. Boring...

I agree with you! However, what Brosnan climax do you think is worse than this? For me, I can easily say that the climax in GE, TND, and TWINE was much, much better than this.


I really hated the Brosnan films (not because of Pierce, though). They got worse and worse. Still, the subject has been done to death in these fora, so I wouldn't like to go on about it. I found both the film and the ending a lot better than anything that was in a brosnan bond. Still, without it being bad, the end was not as good as it should or could. IMO.

#9 pgram

pgram

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 621 posts
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan

Posted 01 November 2008 - 10:50 PM

On this point about the CIA being in the wrong. I don't think this is the first time that sort of thing has happened - Trevelyan brings up the Betrayal of the Cossacks and that was a real event in which Britain took part and it's pretty hard to justify. His suggestion that Bond drink to drown out the cries of the men he has murdered is also along those lines - in some sense, the inclusion of the line acknowledges a truth.

I agree that this explored darker territory than usual - although I'd say it hinted at le Carre or (Graham) Greene rather than Len Deighton or the films of his books, both of which have plenty of sardonic humour and absurdities in them - but I didn't think it got anywhere close to 'not being a Bond film'. You say to break into Fort Knox and NOT steal anything is Bond. You could do the same here. To be met at the airport in La Paz by the local MI6 agent and told to get back on the plane is the sort of thing that you would find in any film. For that agent to be a beautiful young English rose (named Strawberry Fields!) who sleeps with Bond within a few minutes can only happen in a Bond film. To check into a seedy hotel in La Paz as teachers on a sabbatical could happen in any film... You see where I'm going, I'm sure. :(


I do see what you mean, snf. But i do consider these lines in GE un-Bondish, too. I wouldn't comment on them, if i reviewed the film, because i think it was the least of its problems. But all these theoretical analyses really annoy me. How did trevelyan know that 007 drunk martinis? Had he watched the films? The whole idea of 006 as a villain is cringeworthy... Plus, the story about the Kozacs referred to the past, so no big harm done.

It 's not that i think there shouldn't be treacheries in Bond. It's just that i don't want them to be political. It's not the 3 days of the Condor, or the President's men. It's Bond. Fantasy. Escapism. That's what i enjoyed in the old films: you could have a spy film in the peak of the cold war, with Russians as villains and still the film would be so apolitical, the official soviet government ethical and general Gogol so likeable that he even got himself a girlfriend eventually.

I am aware of world politics. I just don't want to think about them when watching a bond film. There 's an element in many stories of the old films (and books, usually) that have gone missing recently. Not just in this film, in general.

About your second comment, I agree with you again, but i was referring to the main ideas of the plots, not details.

#10 pgram

pgram

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 621 posts
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan

Posted 04 November 2008 - 05:45 PM

Another thing which just came to my mind: exactly at what point between CR and QoS did Bond decide that a 3 piece suit wasn't a good image and got rid of the waistcoat? :(

#11 quantumofsolace

quantumofsolace

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1563 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 05:56 PM

Another thing which just came to my mind: exactly at what point between CR and QoS did Bond decide that a 3 piece suit wasn't a good image and got rid of the waistcoat? :(


When EON talked to Dunhill

#12 Bond Bug

Bond Bug

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 879 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 06:13 PM

This was not a Bond film, it was a Jack Ryan film.

This wasn't a Bond film, it was a Jason Bourne film.


Exactly. The essence of Bond has been removed.

BRING BACK JAMES BOND!

#13 pgram

pgram

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 621 posts
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan

Posted 04 November 2008 - 06:18 PM

This was not a Bond film, it was a Jack Ryan film.

This wasn't a Bond film, it was a Jason Bourne film.


Exactly. The essence of Bond has been removed.

BRING BACK JAMES BOND!


Well, you missed the: this was not a bond film, it was a Ken Loach film part :(

Seriously, though, despite what i considered a loss of brand, the film had more good elements than the 4 Brosnans put together. If it was right after DAD, all reviews would be enthusiastic (which was, partly, why they were for CR)

#14 Bond Bug

Bond Bug

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 879 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 06:44 PM

the film had more good elements than the 4 Brosnans put together.



What scene compared to Brosnan adjusting his tie underwater in the River Thames?

What scene compared to Brosnan having his head dunked in a bowl of water by Koreans?

What scene compared to Brosnan saying "Bond, James Bond?"

What scene oompared to Bond humiliating Elliot Carver by shutting down the power during a speech?

That was not Ken Loach! That was Bond!

#15 JimmyBond

JimmyBond

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 10559 posts
  • Location:Washington

Posted 04 November 2008 - 06:48 PM

You need to come up with better moments than those if you're going to put forth an argument. Most of them are pretty weak, I do like the one from TND though, that's my favorite Brosnan film.

#16 Major Tallon

Major Tallon

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2107 posts
  • Location:Mid-USA

Posted 04 November 2008 - 10:21 PM

the film had more good elements than the 4 Brosnans put together.



What scene compared to Brosnan adjusting his tie underwater in the River Thames?

What scene compared to Brosnan having his head dunked in a bowl of water by Koreans?

What scene compared to Brosnan saying "Bond, James Bond?"

What scene oompared to Bond humiliating Elliot Carver by shutting down the power during a speech?

That was not Ken Loach! That was Bond!


I still have ten days to wait before seeing Quantum of Solace, but I can tell you that I won't miss scenes like the ones you've cited. I can accept Bond's being tortured by his captors, but a meaningless villain humiliation scene, the overused "Bond, James Bond," and, particularly, the silly underwater tie straightening are the types of elements that had become distractions from appreciating the Bond movies as taut, exciting thrillers.

Together with stock characters like Q and Moneypenny (shoehorned into the films for no coherent reason other than to provide a cheap laugh), impossible gadgets (which allow Bond to escape impossible situations without using his resourcefulness or courage), and dismal, dismal puns (frequently more embarrassing than amusing), these are peripheral to what makes a film a James Bond movie. I hope we've seen the back of them.

Edited by Major Tallon, 04 November 2008 - 10:22 PM.


#17 Vauxhall

Vauxhall

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 10744 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 04 November 2008 - 10:40 PM

What scene compared to Brosnan adjusting his tie underwater in the River Thames?

What scene compared to Brosnan having his head dunked in a bowl of water by Koreans?

What scene compared to Brosnan saying "Bond, James Bond?"

What scene oompared to Bond humiliating Elliot Carver by shutting down the power during a speech?

Are you aiming to cite these as good, or even iconic, Brosnan moments?

#18 Bureau Of Weapons

Bureau Of Weapons

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 60 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:59 PM

Surely I can't be the only one that liked the low key confrontation at the hotel? A far more personal confrontation for the characters than we'd get with Brosnan machine gunning everyone to death. It was a novel change to have Bond fight a villain whom he needed to keep alive.

#19 pgram

pgram

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 621 posts
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan

Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:25 PM

All these points mentioned above echo my feelings exactly. Maybe my review and comments on QoS sound harsh, but, at the end of the day, it is what I 'd been asking for: a film made by intelligent adults adressing intelligent adults. It did have weaknesses, yes. Some of which I wish were avoided. But still, in principle (to comply with my thread's title), it was a decent, honest, brave attempt, and I trully respect it for that. It just felt that with minor changes it could have been trully excellent. As days go by since I saw it, my feeling is that if it was longer (or if they had sacrificed the two boring action sequences-boat and plane) to slow down a bit and let people digest what was going on and to explain things that weren't sufficiently explained, to let people enjoy the locations and the sets, it would have been significantly better.

A film in a different league from all the Brosnan ones.