20 replies to this topic

[JimmyBond]

Ok, aside from the gunbarrel, Eric Serra did not use the Bond theme once in Goldeneye. Of course the Bond theme made an appearance over the tank chase, but that is not his piece, and it was in fact used (hell, I dont know why they changed it) but Serra's original piece for that sequence is a mismatch of techno, and what might be the Bond theme.

It just seemed that Serra wanted nothing to do with the Bond theme, and as a result, the movie suffered, not a lot, but a bit.

[Dmitri Mishkin]

Actually, the Bond theme was sprinkled throughout the score in subtle ways. The opening of the pre-titles with Bond running, the shot of Bond going down the stairs of the facility, and the scene where Bond and Natalya are trapped inside the helicopter are just a few examples where the theme was used in a lighter, less-brassy but somehow just as effective fashion. Although initially I thought it was regrettable, I now think in many ways Serra's score is refreshing.

[JimmyBond]

I dont have anything against the score really, and yes, I am aware of those pieces of the theme you mention. I was referring to the more traditional use of the theme though, such as during the tank chase.

[General Koskov]

I rather like Serra's score now. Not the tank chase bit, , but the Arkhangel'sk score is wonderful.

[mccartney007]

I really like the use of the Bond theme in the pre-titles sequence. I think the drum banging out the tune is an interesting twist to the theme and it works well with what we're seeing on screen.

[Dunph]

Definitely, I think the timpani playing the Bond theme gives so much atmosphere and a dark and gritty feeling to the pre-credits.

I was referring to the more traditional use of the theme though, such as during the tank chase.

The typical orchestra simply isn't Serra's style, he's a synth man normally (an obvious point if you've heard some of his other scores), I feel that "Tank Chase" by Robert Altman, which substituted Serra's brilliant "A Pleasent Drive Through St. Petersburg" was placed during the chase by producer's request.

All in all, I love Serra's score, as I love all of the "one-off" Bond composer's scores!

[Tedley King]

I quite like that soundtrack. It was after all the second one I bought out of the 7 i now own. I actually quite like track number 2. From the part in the film where Bond is in the facility in the pre-creds.

[gkgyver]

Me, I love Serra's score and I never understood why many people humiliate it. Ok, he could have used the Bond theme a little more, but IMO the music fits the movie perfectly.
I own the "Bond Back In Action 2" CD and I recently listened to the tank drive music that was used in the movie; I don't think that John Altman's version of the theme was that much better than Serra's original track. When you watch the tank scene and hear the music simultaneously, you will see that Altman's score is quite lame.

[Predator_007]

Main problem with Serra's score was its predominance in the mix ... far too loud! There were also some slightly dodgy pieces ... the Aston?Ferrari chase and the closing titles being the worst IMO

I think what's most likely is that he got a lousy brief and he didn't really understand Bond - not necessarily his fault, but the worst score and soundtrack by a mile IMO.

[Kingdom Come]

I think Eric Serra along with Martin Campbell and the producers thought the james bond theme needed to be refreshed. I applaud him for that and his score is unique. Serra is a remarkable composer unlike Arnold who is a very obvious hack. The mark of a composer is that his music is HIS. Serra's score sounds like no other composer. Like Barrys work. Like Vangelis. Listen to Arnold's scores and how many hundreds of times have we heard such similar writing in other soundtracks?

[Harmsway]

Arnold a hack?!! I don't think so, my friend. TND was quite possibly the strongest score Bond has had since the John Barry glory days of the Connery films. In all its glory, TND wasn't different for several reasons, one of them being that it was an homage to John Barry. I think TWINE, despite the fact being lackluster as a score, was more individual as music. It brought a whole drama element to Bond that hadn't really been seen (or heard) before. Not to mention I can't recall any music similar to Arnold's in the series - it has a brassy feel that is bigger and bolder than Barry's work, but still remains Bondish.

Now onto Serra's score. It was weak in the way that it wasn't Bond. That's ok, if you're trying to take a new direction. But I personally believe that GE shouldn't have gone as dark and modern as it did. It should've come blaring "BOND IS BACK!" in the style of TSWLM and now DAD. GE was great film. It just lacked Bondiness. It feels more like an action movie and less like Bond, but it is saved by it's great dialogue and plot.

Serra's score shouldn't have been used. It should've been given to someone who actually understood Bond music. Serra was different, and I appreciate that, but it was too different. Nearly eliminating the Bond theme and using dark voices and sounds doesn't work. The score for the GE N64 video game beats the score of the film, which is a sad, sad, thing.

[Kingdom Come]

Thank you for your reply. But I am, probably like yourself, a collector of film scores and Arnold's stuff [great name - it's mine as well] is soo 'havent we heard this writing too often'. To have the Bond music so familiar each time is patronising. Eric Serra isn't the only composer who looked to the future. George Martin / Marvin Hamlish / Bill Conti / Michael Kamen. I also have to say that Arnold's approach to the Bond music is often as a 'fan of the Bonds approach.' He seems to think for example that scene in TWINE where Bond is escaping from the 'mine' that the scene cried out for the James Bond theme. Now this scene is a cliche from start to finish and what he could have done was to have a different theme to help refresh it. But to have the James Bond theme over it is like sticking your fingers up to the audience. It componds the lack of originality. I was disappointed with his writing of TND simply because the music I heard sounded like any action music from any film score from any film from any C.D. stores shelves. Listen to his pre-title theme White Knight and listen to Serra's GoldenEye Overture pre-title theme and hand on heart which of those can be called remarkable? As far as this familiar comment that he never used the James Bond theme enough - he did but in a very clever way. John Barry's score to Moonraker which is one of the best, only used the James Bond Theme in his pre-title action cue. But of course this is all my opinion and David Arnold is a very nice chap indeed, but each time I hear any of his scores in or out of the Bond stable I hear Horner / Williams / Goldsmith in the writing.

[Harmsway]

I would argue that the scores done by men who looked to the future were among the weakest of the series, with the exception of George Martin (whose score, while fun, is hopelessly dated, unlike the scores of great composers such as Bernard Herrman, John Barry, and John Williams) and Michael Kamen (whose score I don't think really looked to the future to begin with). Marvin Hamilsch's re-do of the Bond theme is terrible, even for its time, and Bill Conti's music is hopeless as it doesn't work with the film much at all and seems far too discoish for a James Bond score.

Serra's main weakness lies in the fact he didn't use enough brass and relied too much on synth sounds and re-doing the Bond theme. Let's face it, the Bond theme should be done traditionally at least ONCE in a Bond film. Serra failed to live even up to that. His GoldenEye overture is an interesting piece, and I do like it, but I think it would have been vastly improved if it had been performed with full orchestra. The brass, which is (in my humble opinion) one of the defining points of a score, is nonexistant. However, he did perfectly score the film, and defined the mood of GoldenEye.

However, when comparing the cues of Arnold and Serra, one immediately sees a contrast - such as Backseat Driver up against his original A Pleasant Drive Through St. Petersburg. Serra's Tank Chase is a terrible piece of music from any way you look at it, regardless of it being Bond or not. Arnold's Backseat Driver, though, is a fun and wonderful piece that both sums up the whole of James Bond.

Arnold does have his weakness, but I think having the Bond theme play in the scene where Bond and Dr. Jones escapes from the silo was nessecary. It fits so perfectly, and regardless of whether its a cliche or not, it works.

Now when you compare the lack of the Bond theme in Moonraker to the lack of the theme in GoldenEye, you get two completely different things. While Moonraker was a highly melodic score that was very beautiful and still represented Bond, GoldenEye was a score that's dissappearance of the Bond theme made it weak. The music itself is quite boring, when placed apart from the film. There's no beauty in it, and that's its weakness. I have no doubt that Arnold could do a Bond score without using the Bond theme, but Serra's would be a terrible mess. The cue Serra uses for the race between Bond and Xenya is a horrible mismatched cue that shouldn't have been written, as with his finale piece with Trevelyan and Bond fighting. He definitely should have included a more traditional Bond theme piece at the end - after all, this is Bond reclaiming his throne. Just a few thoughts.

[Kingdom Come]

Hello again! You start of with..'I could argue..'!! Yes, oh yes. We're 2 of a kind [We move as one] your reply is very good. I feel that there have been so many Bond films that having the scores so similar is not a good move. I understand your love for that Bond sound and I do 2. I've had it since I was a little boy and the Bond scores were the first records I bought. But with Lord Serra!, he did what Barry had done in the begining or close to the begining [he looked to the future] you know, what will this sound like 20/30/40 years from now? Barry wrote and recorded music that was on another level to what we had heard before almost like re-inventing the wheel. As I write this I'm playing Backseat Driver... its too plastic for my tastes. The brass is terrific, but its not getting anywhere we havent been. You use the phrase 'has no beauty' - We Share The Same Passions and That's What Keeps You Alone is some of the most beautiful writing I've ever heard for any film.

[JimmyBond]

I dont think Serra looked to the future. Even now his score is out of date. It has a terrible 90's synth sound, which might be good for sci fi movies, but is all wrong for Bond.

Arnold on the other hand has been able to capture the Bond spirit, while being original, I dont think you can judge someone on how often they use the Bond theme, its up to the composer when they feel it should be used, the closest Serra got to the Bond theme was the gunbarrel music he used.

Theres a reason Arnold keeps getting asked back. If Serra was so good, dont you think he'd be the composer still?

[Kingdom Come]

Listen Jimmy, I'm not going to spend eternity answering to your contradictory messages all over this or any other board. You must need treatment if you can call Arnold's scores original. If Barry was so good and he was, don't you think he'd also still be the composer?
Michael Wilson said in an interview, Arnold's writing is like 'the son of Barry'. They want that sound again. Wilson also said that Serra was 'a kind of an experiment'. This can be heard on the Region 1 DVD GoldenEye. Not Region 2, alas. The more the current producers stick to formula the less likely the boat rocks. You say Serras music has dated that it sounds very 90s - so which era does Barrys first scores come from? or the 70s? or the 80s? I remember in the 70s Barry's 60s scores being 'made fun of' because they sounded so 60s! And now look? All these things are caught up in fashions. What some1 today will think the best, 5/10/15/20 years from now they'll lambast, and the wheel turns...la de da..

[Rich Douglas]

Eric Serra can be a very talented composer for any film but a bond film. Take a listen to his score to "The Professional" ("Leon"), it was his inspiration for goldeneye, i have no doubt. There is a track on the score that is damn near exact to the Goldeneye Overture (The timpani drums in "Leon" almost sound like the bond theme). My problem with goldeneye is that it sounds exactly like Serras other works like "Leon", "The Messenger", and "The Fifth Element" with tons of synth usage and alot of strange sounds mixed in. It worked well in those films, but NOT for a bond film. Experiment or not, Serra had no business scoring a bond film. They should have tested his score with a test audience, then MGM would have found out it just doesnt work. I respect Serra as a composer, and love most of his work, however i truly hate his Goldeneye score. I gave it a listen again today before writing this, and still cannot believe it is music from a bond film.

Rich

[Dunph]

Ooh, I like...Heated debate in the music forums!

I'm afraid I disagree to some extent, Rich, I like most of Serra's avant-garde score. Sure, it's a little leftfield for a Bond score but I believe it adds a great deal to the film. I love the Russian choir you hear during some sections of the soundtrack, an eerie representation of the ghosts of former Soviet Russia in my mind. The out-of-tune synthesised brass in The GoldenEye Overture I believe is a hark back to Bond's former musical style, and the timpani-Bond theme is wonderfully dramatic.

I'd call the score original, deeply atmospheric, even if it's not faithful to the music of old, it is still a wonderful soundtrack.*


(* apart from that crock of ****e called Experience Of Love)

[JimmyBond]

Kingdom Come, is this not a message board, can I not speak my opinion? One of the neat things about this place is that I can freely express my opinion. And contrary to what you may think, I'm not seeking you out to argue with, when I see a topic where I want to give my input to, I do, whether you are posting in it or not.

With that being said, Barry is asked back all the time, but you know what? He keeps turning them down, he usually asks for too much. He wanted to score the main title song for GE, the producers didnt want him to, so he walked. They came close to getting him for TND, instead he asked for too much money, the producers said no, he walked. Not sure about TWINE, but there were rumors that he was coming back for DAD, again, I bet he and the producers just cant get along, so he probably wont be back.

As for Arnold, his music is current, while having that Bond flavor, I favor TWINE over TND simply because TWINE feels like his score, TND feels too much like a "Best of Bond" and in that respect, I guess you could say he's not entirely original, but then again, he is the best composer for the series besides Barry. I certantly wouldnt want any of the other one shot composers back.

[Rich Douglas]

I too love a debate about film scores.... especially bond scores Dunph

I must say that i totally agree with you, the male russian chorus does do exactly what it is supposed to do, and i do respect that about the score. And the timpani drums at the beginning do represent a darker side to bond which i can also respect. But tracks like "ladies First" and Serra's version of "A Pleasant Drive Through St. Pete." just dont seem to fit the bond mood.

Rich

[Kingdom Come]

.... and now the weather!