187 replies to this topic

[MHazard]

I would consider an OHMSS re-adaptation with Craig. OHMSS is tied with CR for my favorite movie but if you had an actor like Craig in it, it could be phenomenal. What I'd really like to see is OHMSS added to the continuinty and have a Craig YOLT where the pre-credits sequence is a re-shot flashback to the last scene of OHMSS, then post-credit, James in the park not answering his page (or cell phone in the 21st Century).

[Blabbermouth]

I have the perfect solution, I think--and one that should spare Judo any nightmares of the Forest. What about dear, dead President David Palmer from 24? The big, charismatic black actor now starring in The Unit?

Don't watch TV all that much, so I tried to look him up. Is he the 'snake doctor' guy? Looks like the Candyman? (And maybe he was... ??)

His name is Dennis Haysbert. Look him up on www.imdb.com. He was the voodoo guy in the original Major League. (Hmm...) And here in the states, he does those All-State car insurance commercials as well. GREAT IDEA, Judo!! He does seem rather perfect.

Great post, blackjack, although I'd personally consider "the untouchables" to be FRWL, GF, TB (well, maybe), and OHMSS. I may risk credibility by disagreeing about Dr. No, but really the only "immortal," never-again-duplicable elements are Sean's intro and Ursula's entrance (As Halle Berry very well proved). Other than that, the film deviated quite a bit from the novel after the dinner-with-Julius scene. These are the missing elements I'd like to see in another DN:

- Already knowing Quarrel and Strangways b/c we've already seen LALD
- The poisoned fruit
- Dr. No's longer background, and the original reason he has no hands
- The obstacle course, which sucked, frankly, in the film
- The killing ground with the squid, which obviously couldn't be done in '62.
- The crab (non)torture scene with Honey

Anyway, I too wish to see Moonraker, but would be pleasantly surprised if it was somehow not immediately comparable to DAD and/or Goldeneye. And I agree that DAF is missing some plot interest, but the thought of Bond having to get in bed with organized crime is really engrossing to me.

I forgot earlier: I'd also like to see a better version of the Bond/Scaramanga hunt (or duel) in a swamp, jungle, or forest.

Quite agree with you on most thinks - IMO Tommy "Tiny" Lister is the best bet for a physically matching Mr. Big. This guys looks menacing is 6'8" and is build like a supertanker. Despite being mostly used in gangsta-movies he is a good actor. Another name could be John Amos (Die Hard 2, Lock Up) he is not a physically big but has a great presence.

[00Twelve]

Quite agree with you on most thinks - IMO Tommy "Tiny" Lister is the best bet for a physically matching Mr. Big. This guys looks menacing is 6'8" and is build like a supertanker. Despite being mostly used in gangsta-movies he is a good actor. Another name could be John Amos (Die Hard 2, Lock Up) he is not a physically big but has a great presence.

Ha! Not bad... If it were John Amos, then after he dies (by shark attack, as it should have been) we could see the organization getting the call and the leader being like, "Damn! DAMN! DAAAAAAAAMN!!!" as he shatters a punch bowl on the floor.
(I'm getting old.)

[TheREAL008]

So, who's for and who's against?

[00Twelve]

| | |
VVV

[TheREAL008]

Splendid.

Edited by TheREAL008, 28 March 2007 - 07:58 PM.

[Moore Baby Moore]

For me, it's just like a comic book hero. I would much rather see a good adaptation of a comic book story arc than a made-up story when there is so much history. For instance, what Superman fan doesn't want to see the Death/Return story done right?

Me. I hate that story and everything it stands for. It sold out the character and the integrity of his universe for the sake of a quick buck and gore-drenched shock value, and it took over a decade for the damage to be rectified. I would be CNBing all over the place if some Hollywood bonehead thought giving Superman the Passion of the Christ treatment was a good idea. (And it almost happened under Jon Peters and Tim Burton, albeit with zero connection to Superman as Siegel and Shuster created him.) And it would be Passion-level gory because that's the one thing I keep seeing fans clamor for, a gruesome death scene that ends with Superman laying in a pool of his own blood. Seeing Superman gored, flayed and beaten to death in the comics was bad enough, thanks.

As for remaking the Fleming books, I'm 100% dead-set against the idea. First, it would reek of "we're out of ideas." Second, some of the novels and short stories got chopped up and distributed among the other movies, so adapting them again is pointless. And thirdly, it would make far more sense to take the elements that haven't been used and implement them into new storylines. And fourthly, why try to devalue the movies that have already been made? Just take the lements that haven't been used, implement them into new moies, and keep the films as companion pieces to each other rather than trying to unseat the classics as "definitive."

[LadySylvia]

As for Gardner and Benson they are pastiches. I don't see why they should bother paying these guys money for books no one has heard of when they can make up their own plots.

Considering that EON Productions is barely able to make up their own plots, I don't see why they can't use the Gardner and Benson novels. And besides, Fleming wasn't exactly a better writer. The best I can say about him was that he had a picturesque mind.

[bill007]

Remake vs Re-adaptation
Cinematic action movie hero vs Literary character

The debate that 00Twelve has put forth has grown to 5 pages in quick pace. The primary contributors to this argument express their opinions in a very civilized manner, and display a professional quality in so doing which is commendable.

Since we have a fresh beginning with CR, should we see a chronological developement of the next two Fleming novels, LALD and MR? And should the producers use the original titles?

Since this is in the Bond 23 and Beyond thread, I ponder what would occur if this hypothesis actually occured. Should the producers continue with the remaining novels in sequential order? If so, the next would be DAF. Then, we get into the realm of FRWL, Dr. No, and Goldfinger.

While I would entertain the possibility of seeing LALD, MR, and DAF done true to Fleming (storyline and title), I begin to cringe at updating FRWL, DN, and GF.

This is what leads me to suspect that the producers would not want to put themselves in this murky territory.

One thing is for sure. IF they did go with the true adaptations of Fleming's novels, in chronological order, we wouldn't have to worry what the title for the next few films would be.

Also, the literary direction would make these films more character/plot driven, and subsequently less Super-Spy in nature. Say good-bye to the pubescent males gawking at nude girls dancing in the title sequences, because the rest of the movie will loose them. Hey, this is turning out to be a pretty good idea after all.

[00Twelve]

For me, it's just like a comic book hero. I would much rather see a good adaptation of a comic book story arc than a made-up story when there is so much history. For instance, what Superman fan doesn't want to see the Death/Return story done right?

Me. I hate that story and everything it stands for. It sold out the character and the integrity of his universe for the sake of a quick buck and gore-drenched shock value, and it took over a decade for the damage to be rectified. I would be CNBing all over the place if some Hollywood bonehead thought giving Superman the Passion of the Christ treatment was a good idea. (And it almost happened under Jon Peters and Tim Burton, albeit with zero connection to Superman as Siegel and Shuster created him.) And it would be Passion-level gory because that's the one thing I keep seeing fans clamor for, a gruesome death scene that ends with Superman laying in a pool of his own blood. Seeing Superman gored, flayed and beaten to death in the comics was bad enough, thanks.

As for remaking the Fleming books, I'm 100% dead-set against the idea. First, it would reek of "we're out of ideas." Second, some of the novels and short stories got chopped up and distributed among the other movies, so adapting them again is pointless. And thirdly, it would make far more sense to take the elements that haven't been used and implement them into new storylines. And fourthly, why try to devalue the movies that have already been made? Just take the lements that haven't been used, implement them into new moies, and keep the films as companion pieces to each other rather than trying to unseat the classics as "definitive."

Wow. Well, that's definitely informative. Just one serious question: Do you feel the same way about Spock? I mean, offing the as-yet-un-offable character, then bringing him back? Which, by the way, Superman did in a much more creative and smooth way. I've never met another Superman comic fan that didn't like the Death/Return storyline. Maybe I need to get out more. That might solve a lot of these issues, actually! Sorry, don't mean to digress.

First, let me say that as for the early Fleming stories, and I'll use LALD as an example, any good screenwriter (heck, even a good fan fic writer) could properly adapt the story of LALD in such a way that no casual moviegoer (further, no one who hadn't read the book and known that it was called Live And Let Die) would even recognize it as having anything to do with the LALD film. All it takes is some creativity with the villain, the people that work for him, and a character name or two (Simone Latrelle - perfect, ____ Ourobouros - there's your villain), and you've got a story that has never been brought to screen. It would be ideal to see the book done more closely, as the book, IMHO, buries the film. But as you said, that might devalue the original. Personally, I often find myself in conflict about that sort of thing, because it is absolutely the domain of the creators to do what they please with their own work, but speaking as an actor, I hate to see actors' work become obsolete. I believe the loose suggestion I just proposed would be an ideal solution.

Regarding events such as Felix' encounter with the shark, we can do one of four things. 1) Whine about EON perpetually for returning Felix back to his pre-LTK health, and formatting the Bond-continuity hard drive, 2) chase after wind in trying to find some kind of reconciliation in continuity, 3) Forget the literary backgrounds of the characters completely, and just accept the Jack Ryan assessment of what Casino Royale has done to 20 Bond films, or 4) Continue the original intended development of the characters and see it happen again. The majority of moviegoers, I firmly believe, won't be putting up any flags about LTK, as they probably won't even realize that it was supposed to be the same guy. I just happen to be in the fourth camp. We're not talking NSNA to TB here. Not remotely. In fact, Judo and I don't always agree on whether the original title is appropriate. If a different title was used and the above changes were made, BAM. All new adventure.

In addition, even concepts would be fantastic. Capturing the essence of the stories, the unused concepts (and not just unused bits and pieces of scenes), could yield great Bond films for years to come. Bond back in DAF could get stale, but imagine "Bond has to get in bed with an organized crime ring." That indeed would be compelling, and very tense. Just ideas.

[Santa]

Bingo, 0012!

[RazorBlade]

Using new ideas to tell the old stories would work. I'm for it.

[Judo chop]

As for remaking the Fleming books, I'm 100% dead-set against the idea. First, it would reek of "we're out of ideas."

Someone help me understand this. As in, what really is the concern here? That the world is going to catch on to the fact that EON has

[Santa]

Oooh Judo baby, you're on fire tonight!

[Judo chop]

Considering it's still only the morning for me... wow. Thanks Santa!

[dodge]

Oooh Judo baby, you're on fire tonight!

The Confused American is confused again: does this refer to JC's March 26 post? Or...is there something else I should know about?

[Santa]

Noooooooo, the one right above! Why are you so confused? What are you smoking? Most things Judo says make huge sense to me and I get a bit overexcited. Sorry.

[dodge]

Noooooooo, the one right above! Why are you so confused? What are you smoking? Most things Judo says make huge sense to me and I get a bit overexcited. Sorry.

The post immediately yours--on my Confused American screen--is from Razorblade. That was the source of my Dodgeian funk.

[Santa]

That's odd. Or you could be right, I could just be randomly proclaiming that I have inappropriate feelings for Judo Chop.

[00Twelve]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='721927' date='2 April 2007 - 10:44'][quote name='Moore Baby Moore' post='720692' date='30 March 2007 - 12:44']As for remaking the Fleming books, I'm 100% dead-set against the idea. First, it would reek of "we're out of ideas."[/quote]

Someone help me understand this. As in, what really is the concern here? That the world is going to catch on to the fact that EON has 'run out of ideas' and turn their backs to them and the box office for that reason alone? As if the people who contributed to the $600 million CR has made forked over their cash only at the explicit promise from EON that what they were about to witness came from only untouched, extra-virgin sources? As if these people were at all interested in knowing, except as a passing piece of trivia, that the film was based on a book to begin with?

They don't know from where the stories come, and they don't care. This re-working of a Fleming story approach can't

[dodge]

That's odd. Or you could be right, I could just be randomly proclaiming that I have inappropriate feelings for Judo Chop.

Oh, Lord, I wouldn't know about that. As a writer, I have inappropriate feelings for his skillful use of the comma and his mastery of tone.

[Santa]

Just kidding. My feelings are entirely appropriate. It was a particularly good post though, don't you think?

[plankattack]

Just kidding. My feelings are entirely appropriate. It was a particularly good post though, don't you think?

Oh yes - a classic Judo melding of opinion and fact. What a post! Just, the judoness of it all....

[MHazard]

Go away for a few days and the dialogue just goes forward. Very insightful posts by Judo and 0012 which I find myself in agreement with. If good stories were told (and I disagree with Lady Sylvia, Fleming was a first rate writer of thrillers) with good actors they could be sold whether or not the same titles were used. I'm personally in favor of the same titles. You just market it as now the story can be told as it was intended since the modern moviegoer is mature enough to handle it. CR is obviously a re-boot so we can see Leiter lose his arm as Fleming intended if they choose to go that route. It certainly gets dicey if you're talking about re-making DN, FRWL, GF or TB, but I personally would love to see, what I've never seen, which are movies that actually resemble the novels LALD, DAF, MR, YOLT, and TMWGG. The movie versions of those are not "classics" in my opinion and certainly bear little resemblance to those novels which I have re-read many times. There is a coherent Bond the literary character. There is no coherent Bond the movie superspy. I'm still waiting to see some of my favorite novels translated to the screen.

[dodge]

Just kidding. My feelings are entirely appropriate. It was a particularly good post though, don't you think?

Oh yes - a classic Judo melding of opinion and fact. What a post! Just, the judoness of it all....

Will nobody tell me which Judo post we're talking about?! I'm invited to a party here, but left without an address. Or even the name of the town.

[plankattack]

Just kidding. My feelings are entirely appropriate. It was a particularly good post though, don't you think?

Oh yes - a classic Judo melding of opinion and fact. What a post! Just, the judoness of it all....

Will nobody tell me which Judo post we're talking about?! I'm invited to a party here, but left without an address. Or even the name of the town.

I can't help you. Santa has confused me with the whole 2.1 or 21 thing so I have no idea what thread I'm on.

Santa, is that you? 2.1 or 21 is somewhere else? I'm conpletely confused. But Judo knows - that I'm sure of.

[Judo chop]

That's odd. Or you could be right, I could just be randomly proclaiming that I have inappropriate feelings for Judo Chop.

Oh, Lord, I wouldn't know about that. As a writer, I have inappropriate feelings for his skillful use of the comma and his mastery of tone.

It is as if I swiped the comma from the very brow of James Bond himself!

I'm sorry, that I missed out, on the conversation today. , I was in an all day, meeting and would have much rather,,, been here.

Looks like you guys had fun though!

Nighty-night Santa, Plank, M-Haz, 0012 and Dodge.

[Santa]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='721927' date='2 April 2007 - 19:44'][quote name='Moore Baby Moore' post='720692' date='30 March 2007 - 12:44']As for remaking the Fleming books, I'm 100% dead-set against the idea. First, it would reek of "we're out of ideas."[/quote]

Someone help me understand this. As in, what really is the concern here? That the world is going to catch on to the fact that EON has 'run out of ideas' and turn their backs to them and the box office for that reason alone? As if the people who contributed to the $600 million CR has made forked over their cash only at the explicit promise from EON that what they were about to witness came from only untouched, extra-virgin sources? As if these people were at all interested in knowing, except as a passing piece of trivia, that the film was based on a book to begin with?

They don't know from where the stories come, and they don't care. This re-working of a Fleming story approach can't

[Harmsway]

I'm with Judo on this one.

[00Twelve]

Oh, totally. Yeah.