98 replies to this topic

[Skudor]

I believe "saved by the bell" is a boxing phrase.

[Harmsway]

Love "Saved by the Bell". The best quip since Moore, and possibly since Connery. (As a sidenote to Harmsway, I may be wrong, but I do believe this phrase existed prior to the horrible sitcom of the same name.)

True, it existed prior, but that's all it's associated with these days, so it's worth avoiding. What about it makes you think it's such a great quip? It doesn't strike me as particular witty, and IMO (and I just watched DIE ANOTHER DAY) that whole moment would flow much better without that line. Part of it is that I just can't stand

Love the swordfight. The most intense fight scene in Bond next to the FRWL train fight. My hands were sweaty afterwards.

The swordfight is quite good indeed, and also brings something new to the table as far as Bondian sequences go. I'm not sure I'd go so far to say it's the most intense since FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE's superb train fight, but it's certainly up there with the best fights in the series.

[Bon-san]

I have a warm, fuzzy feeling that Die Another Day will pass the test of time and slowly work its way up the ranks of Bond films past and present. There will come a time when even the invisible car becomes a quaint idea, rather than a ridiculous one. And the bad cgi wil be no worse than the b&w backgrounds during Connery's drives in Jamaica.

And the sword fight really was excellent.

Agreed on all counts. DAD is already placed in the company of YOLT and MR by many Bond fans. Big, bold, outrageously expensive (and looking it), over-the-top, and fun.

And the entire Blades sequence is very good stuff.

I believe "saved by the bell" is a boxing phrase.

Right. Bond was down, and almost out, but he was...

Personally, I think it's one of the better 'banal Bond quips' in many a [M]oon.

[DaveBond21]

The phrase "Saved by the Bell" is used in every day speech in Britain and here in Australia, as well as on television and sports commentary.

I have never seen the US show Harmsway is talking about. But the phrase "Saved by the bell" is so well-used in the UK, that a British spy using it is not strange at all.

[Skudor]

I'm not sure if the movie would be better with it or without it. I think the phrase itself is probably ok, but Brosnan's delivery doesn't convince me. Perhaps Roger would have done it better?

[Harmsway]

I have a warm, fuzzy feeling that Die Another Day will pass the test of time and slowly work its way up the ranks of Bond films past and present.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'm not so sure that it has so much merit that it's really going to become a beloved classic of the franchise. It will probably lose a lot of the vicious hatred to it (but then again, maybe not - MOONRAKER still seems pretty intensely despised nearly thirty years later). I tend to think it will always be seen by the general Bond fanbase as a mixed bag.

I do think that of the "epic" films released in the franchise (YOLT, TSWLM, MR, and DAD), DIE ANOTHER DAY is clearly the weakest. Of course, that's just a personal opinion.

And the bad cgi wil be no worse than the b&w backgrounds during Connery's drives in Jamaica.

To be fair, the backgrounds from DR. NO are nowhere as in-your-face as the CGI in DIE ANOTHER DAY, which I think will age pretty fast (CGI has a habit of looking particularly offensively bad when dated).

[DaveBond21]

I think all those one-liners in all the Bond movies are just meant to make you groan, and then smile....

[Harmsway]

The phrase "Saved by the Bell" is used in every day speech in Britain and here in Australia, as well as on television and sports commentary.

I have never seen the US show Harmsway is talking about. But the phrase "Saved by the bell" is so well-used in the UK, that a British spy using it is not strange at all.

Curious. Nobody in the USA ever uses the phrase anymore - it was killed off by the TV show, which is pretty well known and will probably be the first thing most Americans associate those words with (myself included).

I'm not sure if the movie would be better with it or without it. I think the phrase itself is probably ok, but Brosnan's delivery doesn't convince me. Perhaps Roger would have done it better?

Yeah... maybe it's really Brosnan's delivery that doesn't quite click during that scene, rather than the line itself. Brosnan's really quite good for most of this film, but every now and then, he gets a line and it seems like he doesn't really care for it so he gets lazy with it (see his rather flat delivery of "A palace of ice... you must be right at home" and the line that follows after that). He expressed not really knowing what to do with his one-liners in a number of interviews, and I think that comes out every now and again.

That said, I do really like the smile he delivers "Now there's a name to die for" line with, though. A bit of a naff line to be sure, but Brosnan's delivery is really quite playful and fun.

[Publius]

I rank DAD damn near the bottom of my favorites list, but lo and behold, I do like:

- Bond surfing in the PTS. For real, that is. Or at least his stuntman. You know what I mean.

- The idea of Bond being captured, tortured, and suspected of cracking under pressure. The prisoner exchange was appropriately tense and moody.

- Bond waltzing into an upclass hotel looking like Robinson Crusoe, but still being more Bondian than he had been for years. The scene in his room was great, too. And that masseuse was a beauty. Should've replaced Jinx.

- Everything in Cuba up to meeting Halle Berry, and everything in Cuba after that didn't involve her. Even if it was Spain, it was convincing and a great location just the same (one of the better ones in decades).

- All of the fencing, minus Madonna, but very much plus Rosamund Pike. Toby Stephens also made for a great villain. A fight right up there with the Red Grant or Peter Franks ones.

- The Q scene (including the VR training sequence). And John Cleese as a respectable, traditional, yet different Q. But not the invisible car.

- The (severely underutilized) greenhouse. And Bond trying to kill Miranda Frost. And his escape using the sonic ring (refreshingly creative). Great setting that should have been fleshed out to replace much of what followed.

- I'll admit it, I liked the car battle on the ice between Bond and Zao. Just not when it went into the palace.

- Most of the winks and nods to the past Bond films.

- And of course, Brosnan being at the top of his game.

What I didn't like? (Yes, it has to be said, but I'll condense it):

- Halle Berry. She can be a great actress. But she can also be an atrocious one, as she was here. A forced, overly campy (even by Austin Powers standards), unjustifiably smug performance. And her lines... *shudder* They should have just brought Wai Lin back. A "Bond equal" who was a novel idea and fun to watch in action.

- The dialogue. "Now there's a mouthful." "Big Bang theory." "Your mama." "Leave it in." Yeah, most of it belongs to Jinx, but to her credit, the writing isn't her fault, only the delivery (which does make it worse). I expect a certain degree of class and intelligence from Bond, even with the double (not single, P&W) entendres. Die Another Day doesn't pass muster. It's just some really cringe-inducing B-movie stuff.

- Painful CGI. Bond should keep with the times. Only problem is, Jurassic Park had better graphics than this. Hell, maybe even Tron did. This was an embarassment, literally (no joke, I can't show it to non-Bond fans without preparing them or apologizing). And if a stunt is called for, do it the old-fashioned way, or don't do it at all.

The rest (okay, except the sacrilegious finale) was acceptable. I just think epic, unpretentious Bonds (although this movie seemed to try a few times, what with the torture, rogue agent angle, betrayal, and Bond equal stuff) should still be of an expected quality: well-written, "believable" (Bond going into space is, surfing on glaciers isn't), and with solid effort put into acting.

So, basically, a fun enough flick that I'll catch every so often, but not something that'll pass the test of time. Any future "epic" Bonds should follow in the mold of Thunderball, Spy, TND, most of Moonraker's first half, and heck, much of DAD. But not the whole of it. Ah well, can't win 'em all. At least a lot of you enjoyed it, and now I can have my Casino Royale.

[Skudor]

True - the old b&w backgrounds are far more easy on the eye than many other dated special effects. But I live in hope...

And to put it in context, I'm a huge fan of Moonraker. Once I got past the preposterous idea of Bond in space and Jaws' sudden soft side, I really came to like the movie. I probably like it even more than TSWLM!

DAD has many weaknesses - and has been analysed to death for them. But with time I'm sure the strengths will take over in the minds of the fans. We'll fondly recall the fencing, the torture, the Cuba scenes, Jinx (I like her!) and the spectacular Aston/Jag ice dance.

More than anything, it is perhaps a great way to introduce the younger fans to the franchise. My nephew is reaching the age where the indoctrination can begin (seven). Die Another Day strikes me as a good place to start!

[Bon-san]

At least a lot of you enjoyed it, and now I can have my Casino Royale.

But see, a lot of us will end up enjoying both.

I appreciate a bit of variety, even in regards to things Bond.

[Harmsway]

I think all those one-liners in all the Bond movies are just meant to make you groan, and then smile....

That certainly became their purpose in the 70s and onwards, but honestly, most of the Connery lines struck me as witty and instead of making me groan, they made me laugh. Part of that was delivery, but there was definitely a greater sense of wit in play there.

And to put it in context, I'm a huge fan of Moonraker. Once I got past the preposterous idea of Bond in space and Jaws' sudden soft side, I really came to like the movie. I probably like it even more than TSWLM!

Oh, I *adore* MOONRAKER. But I also consider it ten times the film that DIE ANOTHER DAY is.

More than anything, it is perhaps a great way to introduce the younger fans to the franchise. My nephew is reaching the age where the indoctrination can begin (seven). Die Another Day strikes me as a good place to start!

DIE ANOTHER DAY would be a fairly good place to start (a kid would definitely enjoy it), but for my money, I'd recommend YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE (I believe in introducing Bond to people with Connery).

[Skudor]

I have a high tolerance for one liners - even most of the Brosnan ones (to me the Christmas joke is hilarious; "plutonic" I cannot stand, mainly because it's so utterly pointless and weird). But I have to admit that after Moore they have become a bit harder to swallow. And I'd agree that some of the DAD ones are too crude.

Connery was the master. But the quality was different. I do not recall any crudeness.

[Publius]

At least a lot of you enjoyed it, and now I can have my Casino Royale.

But see, a lot of us will end up enjoying both.

I appreciate a bit of variety, even in regards to things Bond.

Oh, I know. But your second comment is exactly why I said it. CR has a far better chance of being made in the wake of DAD than it would after something melodramatic like TWINE, or even a simple action-fest like TND, if Bond history is any indicator: the oft-mentioned YOLT-OHMSS and MR-FYEO examples. They acquired the rights to Casino at century's turn, realized they couldn't go anywhere from DAD, and subsequently decided it was the right time to "downshift" and might as well use CR, as it was pretty much then or never. At least that's my analysis of the situation (obviously overlooking the politics of it all).

[Bon-san]

At least a lot of you enjoyed it, and now I can have my Casino Royale.

But see, a lot of us will end up enjoying both.

I appreciate a bit of variety, even in regards to things Bond.

Oh, I know. But your second comment is exactly why I said it. CR has a far better chance of being made in the wake of DAD than it would after something melodramatic like TWINE, or even a simple action-fest like TND, if Bond history is any indicator: the oft-mentioned YOLT-OHMSS and MR-FYEO examples. They acquired the rights to Casino at century's turn, realized they couldn't go anywhere from DAD, and subsequently decided it was the right time to "downshift" and might as well use CR, as it was pretty much then or never. At least that's my analysis of the situation .

And very good analysis at that.

[DaveBond21]

Harmsway,

I have always been intrigued by certain lines or scenes in a Bond movie that appeal only to one particular audience.

My 2 favourite examples are Bond in TND, when shutting off the power for Carver's presentation, says "Time for a station break". This means nothing in the UK and Australia and we can only work it out by what he actually does.

On the other hand, the nice in-joke for British fans only in TWINE, during the Thames speedboat chase, the two parking attendants getting soaked by water as the boat speeds past, are real-life attendants and featured in the British reality show "The Clampers". Not only was it great to see wheel-clampers get splashed, but also great to see those ones in particular - and especially funny is that Vic Armstrong only told them that they would feel a little bit of water!!! He laughs as he tells how they only did the take once and their reaction of shock is real!!!

[Harmsway]

Harmsway,

I have always been intrigued by certain lines or scenes in a Bond movie that appeal only to one particular audience.

My 2 favourite examples are Bond in TND, when shutting off the power for Carver's presentation, says "Time for a station break". This means nothing in the UK and Australia and we can only work it out by what he actually does.

For what it's worth, that line has always bothered me purely for that reason - I don't like Bond excluding the British market (or any market, for that matter). And wasn't "The things we do for frequent flyer mileage" from GOLDENEYE one as well?

[DaveBond21]

For what it's worth, that line has always bothered me purely for that reason - I don't like Bond excluding the British market (or any market, for that matter). And wasn't "The things we do for frequent flyer mileage" from GOLDENEYE one as well?

And also Alec Trevelyan shouting "Last call", instead of Last Orders.

[Harmsway]

For what it's worth, that line has always bothered me purely for that reason - I don't like Bond excluding the British market (or any market, for that matter). And wasn't "The things we do for frequent flyer mileage" from GOLDENEYE one as well?

And also Alec Trevelyan shouting "Last call", instead of Last Orders.

Didn't realize that one as well. I can understand EON's desire to somewhat play towards an American audience, but those things irk me. They're not a big deal, but they're enough to bug me a little bit.

[Santa]

Me too. For me, everything Harmsway has said about DAD is spot on. It really upsets me though that I can't like it. It's a Bond film! I want to like it! I'm at the stage now where I'm starting to introduce my 7 year old goddaughter to James Bond and I realised recently that when I come to show her the films, I'll probably leave out DAD. That was a shock to me.

[ACE]

Interesting article ACE (I always enjoy your reviews), but you do fail to make any mention of the absolutely *banal* dialogue this film presents and really is the Achilles' heel of the film. One line after another:

-"Saved by the bell" (Why is Bond referencing an 80s American TV show for teenagers?)
-"Now there's a mouthful..." (Has any worse and grotesque line been said in the history of the franchise?)
-"I trust Mr. Bond's been explaining his Big Bang theory..." (If Bond had any sort of cover as a scientist, it would fit, but he doesn't, and so it flounders.)
-"Leave it in..." (Not only is this incredibly vulgar, it's entirely nonsensical - why the hell does Jinx have a diamond in her belly button? And while this is unrelated to dialogue, it's entirely disgraceful that they're having sex in a Bhuddist shrine.)

Thanks, Harmsway.

I like all the above dialogue. You don't. That's fine.

However, I think Bond films should be "disgusting" and "vulgar" in their schoolboy-ish way. The films have always been suggestive and smutty; adult humour with a witty eroticism. Bond has been more or equally vulgar in the past. So, your objections are curious. The only distinction in DAD is that it is the female agent who utters those lines. Is that your objection?

Thanks, ACE for having the balls to stand by your convictions in the face of a glacial tide of loud DAD-hating around here.

Thanks Bon-san. My Bond balls know well the carpet beater of orthodox fandom. Remember, I've always liked The Man With The Golden Gun...

...and, anyway, people, deep down, really love their DAD!

"One man's ceiling is another man's floor" Paul Simon

[Harmsway]

However, I think Bond films should be "disgusting" and "vulgar" in their schoolboy-ish way.

I'm all for innuendo, but what we have in DIE ANOTHER DAY is just gross and overdone, and in an extremely high percentage throughout the film. In fact, does Bond and Jinx's relationship consist of much other than innuendo?

For instance, there's a far cry between the innuendo we have in DIE ANOTHER DAY and what Bond was given in THUNDERBALL ("I've been known to keep my tip up" - blecccch. "Wait till you get to my teeth" - ).

But it's not just the innuendo that makes DIE ANOTHER DAY's dialogue wearying to me. It's that it seems everybody speaks in that kind of chit-chat all the time. There are barely any natural exchanges of dialogue. It just all seems very exaggerated and contrived, even for Bond. I suppose that's in keeping with DIE ANOTHER DAY's somewhat self-referential nature in trying to play up every single aspect of Bond, but it's very exhausting.

The films have always been suggestive and smutty; adult humour with a witty eroticism.

For me, the operative word in that sentence is *witty* - any wit in DIE ANOTHER DAY is few and far in between. Furthermore, a lot of the lines don't make sense in a conversational context.

Bond has been more or equally vulgar in the past.

I don't think so, and certainly not as consistently so. I still don't think there's been anything in the franchise to equal, "Now there's a mouthful" or "leave it in," both of which are exceedingly graphic. Even when Bond's being dirty (or others in the film, ala Jinx), he should come across as clever when doing so.

However, I'll admit that we got some bad stuff during the Roger days, but I never went for that, either. But even so, "When in Egypt, one must delve deeply into its treasures" is at least cloaked in a metaphor. Furthermore, Moore could at least deliver it and still seem classy. When Brosnan or Berry or Madonna deliver their lines, they come across as rude. To be honest, I think that delivery is 40% of the problem with the dialogue of DIE ANOTHER DAY.

So, your objections are curious. The only distinction in DAD is that it is the female agent who utters those lines. Is that your objection?

Nope. It's the quality, which is lacking, and the amount, which is far too much.

And for what it's worth, I've hijacked this thread with negativity far too much, and thusly this will be my last post on the subject of the dialogue. Anyway - the sword fight rocks!

[Judo chop]

I do sometimes wonder if the witicisms of the Connery days would be as funny today, even if we had another young Connery to perform them. I mean, is there a chance that the classic lines uttered between '62 and '65 are so good but only relative to their place in history? Would they translate so well today? I have to believe they would. I'm hoping to find out in November.

Again though, if only to get back on topic, I have to say "Saved by the Bell" was the ONE Brosnan witicism that caught me off guard and still makes me chuckle like in the good old days.

[Bon-san]

Love "Saved by the Bell". The best quip since Moore, and possibly since Connery. (As a sidenote to Harmsway, I may be wrong, but I do believe this phrase existed prior to the horrible sitcom of the same name.)

True, it existed prior, but that's all it's associated with these days, so it's worth avoiding.

All due respect, but, with whom are you hanging out that this is the case? I don't know anyone who, when hearing that phrase, associates it with that horrid sitcom. It's a venerable phrase that has been well used in general practice and in a variety of media for nearly a century.

Perhaps my age is showing and for the under-twenty set, this phrase has no meaning except in relation to Screech, or whatever his name was.

[hcmv007]

I liked DAD until the invisible car. Then it went downhill from there.

[Harmsway]

All due respect, but, with whom are you hanging out that this is the case?

Nobody particularly young, or even really watched the show all that much.

It's a venerable phrase that has been well used in general practice and in a variety of media for nearly a century.

I haven't heard it used in many, many years, or at least since the TV show debuted in the USA - DIE ANOTHER DAY was the first time I heard that line since.

Perhaps my age is showing and for the under-twenty set, this phrase has no meaning except in relation to Screech, or whatever his name was.

I think that's it. Now of course, give it a little while though, and the TV show will be entirely forgotten and the line won't carry any of those connotations.

[Red Barchetta]

I loved the Hovercraft chase, and the fencing scene.

Can still do without Madonna, and the title song.

[the villain's architect]

The English "saved by the bell"-phrase is even known here in Germany. Which makes it even worse that the German dubbing translated it into "Ich muss mal wieder in die Kirche" (I have to go to church sometime again). In comparison to that your English version was a stroke of genius!

But back on topic, I love the scene where Bond comes into the hotel lobby. And I like the Cuba/Cadiz and the swordfight scenes.
Though I liked the idea of having a decent lair again, the Ice Palace looked too much like plastic for me (all those colours on the walls and no transparency).
It's a shame that they didn't establish the main threat well enough too keep the plot parts together.

Oh, and even if I'm in the minority: I found Jinx quite a good Bond girl (perhaps the German dubbing helped this time?)

[Harmsway]

I just had a quick thought and a brief question - when Colonel Moon says "I have special plans for this consignment," do we ever find out what those "special plans" are? If so, I've never been able to figure it out.

[Blonde Bond]

What I liked/like about Die Another Day;

* Bond getting caught and tortured while credit roll over. Even Madonna's song starts quite well

* Bond marching in the hotel requesting his usual suite, while he's looking like a bum. Very bondian... in a Robinson Crusoe manner

* The whole sequence with Bond and the guy he knocks off and places in the wheelchair. I always find it hilarious, when the guy opens the door and says " Wheelchair ? I dont need no bloody wheelchair !" Bond punches the guy unconscious and replies "Oh. You do now" and then exchanging compliments with the babe in the hotel room.

- Bond pushing the guy in wheelchair towards the hallway,so he could delude the guards and then seeing him walking through the patient's window, taking a grape and saying hello to the patient and his family.

* The swordfight scene was intense. Maybe the best action sequence in the movie.

* The scenes with Q (minus the virtual reality shooting range)
Again I loved the exchange with Bond and the Quartermaster.
Like the line " I bet you shoot trough this in a matter of days " After which Bond throws the instruction manual in the air, while the automatic guns target it and blows it in bits n pieces. " Only took few seconds " and Q's line after
" I wish I could make you disappear ! "

* Bond's line " Vodka martini, plenty of ice... if you can spare it. "

* The last good scene was Bond's and Zao's fight with the cars on the ice. The rest of the movie was/is utter crap.

Edited by Blonde Bond, 04 October 2006 - 03:16 PM.