24 replies to this topic

[deth]

.........admitedly, I'm only reading my third one.... but there always seems to be a female who turns on Bond.... or a double cross of some sort by a character..... does this continue through all the books??? You can almost predict who the person will be right from the start....
(I'm reading them in order... so I'm almost finished Icebreaker)

[Qwerty]

Ah, IceBreaker is indeed the double-triple cross book of Gardner's, deth. I've read all of them many times, and while I do not know the exact reason why he used them, I guess it can be explained that he was just very fond of them!

I think they work very well in IceBreaker indeed!

I really do not want to give away any spoilers for non-readers of Gardner yet, so all I'll say is what I've said about IceBreaker.

[zencat]

You're so right, deth. The Gardner books are FILLED with double and triple crosses and it does get irritating after awhile. It got to a point where the real surprise was when someone turned out to NOT be a traitor. I

[clinkeroo]

It became such a predictable joke within the literary Bond community. There was even a point late in Gardner's run, where there was a figure from a previous novel that had involved a triple cross, who came back to double cross again :mad:.
It was painful to watch such a talented writer just going through the paces.

[DLibrasnow]

I really liked the triple crosses device in the novel ICEBREAKER.

[zencat]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
I really liked the triple crosses device in the novel ICEBREAKER.

It worked in ICEBREAKER because it was the first time he did a triple cross and it was unexpected. But then...

[deth]

ooooooooohhhhhhh.... boy. That's dissapointing to hear that he does this in almost everything.....

[zencat]

I'm not sure he does triple crosses in everything. But he does do double crosses in just about every book.

[DLibrasnow]

He doesn't do it in almost everything. I find Bensons grammar and redundancy far more distracting anyway

[clinkeroo]

Who was it that started that great string of posts about Gardner and Benson writing together? Not only was it funny stuff, but it actually did a good job of highlighting how they each lacked what the other could have added to the series.

As for Icebreaker, I've read it twice, but not within the last 15 years. Maybe it's time to revisit. I remember thinking it wasn't too bad, but Nobody Lives Forever is still my favorite Gardner Bond.

[MrDraco]

The Legendary Gardner betrayal...Oh yes i've read all but Role of Honor, Man From Barbarossa and No Deals Mr.Bond and its simply amzazing how many times bond gets screwed its almost like my life LOL j/k...they're ok once and a while but he need to tone it down a little...

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by clinkeroo
Who was it that started that great string of posts about Gardner and Benson writing together?  Not only was it funny stuff, but it actually did a good job of highlighting how they each lacked what the other could have added to the series.

That's an interesting idea....That certainly is one Bond novel I would be interested in reading.

[Cesari]

I've read all the gardner books many times and I can't bare those double then triple crosses...
The first double cross is in For special services.
Markus Bismaker falling in love with Bond and saving him!!! The begining of the end!!
Then there was Icebreaker. The first double cross works well but when Gardner create a triple cross it becomes stupid!! And everybody whos was a traidor becomes a friend. And each friend becomes an ennemy!!!
And it goes on like that in many books. I
remember the last books were not not so full of stupid triple crosses! Not so bad!!

[DLibrasnow]

I think it really worked well in "Icebreaker" though I will concede that the device became tiresome in subsequent novels.

[Loomis]

Who was it that started that great string of posts about Gardner and Benson writing together? Not only was it funny stuff, but it actually did a good job of highlighting how they each lacked what the other could have added to the series.

Ah, that was me. Thanks for the compliments. Here's the post I made:

INT. OFFICE SHARED BY GARDNER AND BENSON - DAY.

Gardner sits at his typewriter. Nearby is Benson's desk, with typewriter. Benson enters.

GARDNER: Morning, Ray. I've just been putting your draft of chapter two into decent English. And instead of covering the fight between Bond and the goons in one paragraph, I thought we might spread it out over three pages and try and give the reader more suspense.

BENSON: Thanks, John. I've added a few more Fleming touches to the first chapter. There's a very nice little reference to "Quantum of Solace" I'm very proud of.

GARDNER: "Quantum of Solace"?

BENSON: It's a Fleming story.

GARDNER: Ah.

BENSON: So where are we moving the action to from here?

GARDNER: I was thinking about the Finnish-Russian border.

BENSON: Again? No, no, I've got a better idea: Bangkok. I took a lot of really great notes when I was there last year.

GARDNER: Terrific. Hey, how about some other country that borders the USSR? We could have Bond slipping behind enemy lines into the Russian---- (Holds hands up and smiles) Okay, Raymond, you win. Locations are your department, after all. Bangkok it is.

BENSON: Fine. I'm just going to start work on a scene in which Bond visits one of Bangkok's most famous temples. (Starts giggling to himself) Actually, it's a temple that Roger Moore drives past in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN.

GARDNER (Absently): That's nice. Okay, I'm going to spend this morning giving your villain some personality.

BENSON: But no Nazi past, okay, John? We agreed.

GARDNER: Okay.

BENSON: In fact, John, I really think we should leave everything to do with World War II out of it this time.

GARDNER: Ah.... okay. Hang on. You were saying you wanted to use this Tiger Tanaka fellow, but wasn't he an ex-kamikaze pilot in the original Fleming?

BENSON: Yes. Doesn't matter.

GARDNER: But wouldn't that make him rather too old to be----

BENSON: Doesn't matter. It's okay, John, really it is.

GARDNER: If you say so.

BENSON: One more thing: I made some really cool notes for the ending at home last night.

GARDNER: You've already decided on an ending?

BENSON: Sure? Isn't that normal? Settle on a ending early on and write towards it?

GARDNER: Well, I....

BENSON: Hey, John?

GARDNER: Yes?

BENSON: Good job we don't have to argue over a title.

GARDNER (Through gritted teeth): Yes, that's Glidrose's department, isn't it?

BENSON: Sure is.

Gardner and Benson commence a heated discussion of Glidrose during which several not-entirely-complimentary things are said....

[DLibrasnow]

I wonder what the two of them really did think of Glidrose??

[Harmsway]

Quite funny, Loomis. Would be fun if the two writers united for one Bond book, just to see how it'd turn out.

[Blue Eyes]

I can't recall which book it was (though I did review it at CBn) but one of Garnder's felt to me to be too riddled with twists and in the end I felt that Gardner killed off characters and changed their allegiances solely for something to do because he really wasn't sure where the story was going, or how to make it get to where he wanted it.

[Grubozaboyschikov]

I think such a definition could fit any Gardner novel. But you seem to be referring to DEATH IS FOREVER. In this book, Gardner kills even the reader with Bond's light-hearted attitude towards the death of his beloved one.

Edited by Grubozaboyschikov, 03 January 2004 - 11:19 AM.

[Jeff007]

Nobody Lives For Ever continued with more double crosses.

Spoiler

Steve Quinn and Nannette 'Nannie' Norrich

[Thunderball302]

Ah, IceBreaker is indeed the double-triple cross book of Gardner's, deth. I've read all of them many times, and while I do not know the exact reason why he used them, I guess it can be explained that he was just very fond of them!

I think they work very well in IceBreaker indeed!

I really do not want to give away any spoilers for non-readers of Gardner yet, so all I'll say is what I've said about IceBreaker.

Icebreaker is my favorite of the Gardners.

[chrisno1]

To answer the original question, he's just not a very good writer and throwing in a few double / triple crosses disguises his inability to write decent suspenceful stories.
Having said that I like all the first 3 Gardner books. It was down hill straight after that first triplecross

[Mr. Blofeld]

INT. OFFICE SHARED BY GARDNER AND BENSON - DAY.

Gardner sits at his typewriter. Nearby is Benson's desk, with typewriter. Benson enters.

GARDNER: Morning, Ray. I've just been putting your draft of chapter two into decent English. And instead of covering the fight between Bond and the goons in one paragraph, I thought we might spread it out over three pages and try and give the reader more suspense.

BENSON: Thanks, John. I've added a few more Fleming touches to the first chapter. There's a very nice little reference to "Quantum of Solace" I'm very proud of.

GARDNER: "Quantum of Solace"?

BENSON: It's a Fleming story.

GARDNER: Ah.

BENSON: So where are we moving the action to from here?

GARDNER: I was thinking about the Finnish-Russian border.

BENSON: Again? No, no, I've got a better idea: Bangkok. I took a lot of really great notes when I was there last year.

GARDNER: Terrific. Hey, how about some other country that borders the USSR? We could have Bond slipping behind enemy lines into the Russian---- (Holds hands up and smiles) Okay, Raymond, you win. Locations are your department, after all. Bangkok it is.

BENSON: Fine. I'm just going to start work on a scene in which Bond visits one of Bangkok's most famous temples. (Starts giggling to himself) Actually, it's a temple that Roger Moore drives past in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN.

GARDNER (Absently): That's nice. Okay, I'm going to spend this morning giving your villain some personality.

BENSON: But no Nazi past, okay, John? We agreed.

GARDNER: Okay.

BENSON: In fact, John, I really think we should leave everything to do with World War II out of it this time.

GARDNER: Ah.... okay. Hang on. You were saying you wanted to use this Tiger Tanaka fellow, but wasn't he an ex-kamikaze pilot in the original Fleming?

BENSON: Yes. Doesn't matter.

GARDNER: But wouldn't that make him rather too old to be----

BENSON: Doesn't matter. It's okay, John, really it is.

GARDNER: If you say so.

BENSON: One more thing: I made some really cool notes for the ending at home last night.

GARDNER: You've already decided on an ending?

BENSON: Sure? Isn't that normal? Settle on a ending early on and write towards it?

GARDNER: Well, I....

BENSON: Hey, John?

GARDNER: Yes?

BENSON: Good job we don't have to argue over a title.

GARDNER (Through gritted teeth): Yes, that's Glidrose's department, isn't it?

BENSON: Sure is.

Gardner and Benson commence a heated discussion of Glidrose during which several not-entirely-complimentary things are said....

Classic, Loomis; classic!

[Jim]

Splendid.

If there wasn't a doublecross, you'd feel doublecrossed.

[dee-bee-five]

To answer the original question, he's just not a very good writer and throwing in a few double / triple crosses disguises his inability to write decent suspenceful stories.

While I have much sympathy with your viewpoint, I have to say in defence of Gardner that he was capable of so doing. His thriller The Dancing Dodo is one of my favourite books. But this ability seems to have deserted him when it came to Bond. The double/triple/whatever-cross became such a lazy routine for him in his Bond books and it quickly became tiresome. I find the bulk of them dreary and unmemorable, although will admit that the first three had some things I mildly enjoyed.