31 replies to this topic

[zencat]

Okay, this is one of several moments in TWINE that baffles me on a story level, a character level, every darn level! After Electra loses her money at the Casino she asks Bond if he'd like to come back to her place and do the nasty. Bond says, "I can't." Then, cut to, Bond and Electra in bed together.

What the heck is going on here?

One: Why "can't" James Bond sleep with Electra King? Because he promised M? Oh, please. When has that ever stopped him before? And even if he's thinking of violating M's orders at that moment, why would he say, "I can't." What a buzz kill. That's what the woman is supposed to say before she gives it up, Jimmy. Okay, maybe it's because he's falling in love with her? So what's wrong with having sex with a woman you love? Or maybe it's because she

[Loomis]

It's just an example of that film's totally wrongheaded approach to Bond. Brosnan plays him as a caring, sharing, emotional New Man. Going all soppy over a tearful Elektra on a monitor was ridiculous. I'm surprised there weren't scenes of him changing nappies and casting his vote for New Labour.

Another oddity was Bond saying to Elektra in the casino that he couldn't afford to play. Now, obviously there was a double meaning there, or at least I think there was: he was also saying that he couldn't afford (in all senses) to be drawn too deeply into Elektra's world of upper class society. But since when has Bond baulked at either (a) chancing his arm in casinos, or ( chasing posh skirt?

There's more of Fleming's Bond in A VIEW TO A KILL than in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH. What a desecration!

[zencat]

Originally posted by Loomis
It's just an example of that film's totally wrongheaded approach to Bond...

Agreed. I put this in another thread, but as long as we're talking about moments in TWINE that seem a bit off...

I really hate the M "This will not stand" speech. What is she, running for public office here? I feel like M standing up and suddenly making this oh-so-Maggie-Thatcher-like speech ("get it?" wink the filmmakers) is completely out of character and out of context.

I think this weird speech, and the "I can't" beat, come from a well-meaning but wrong-headed desire on the filmmakers to "go deeper" into the characters. You know, there's something to be said for sharply drawn two dimensional characters in a Bond film. Did we ever need

[Tedley King]

I want to mention something a little similar but a different scene, that of Bond and Electra in her room after the ice chase, again, she asks him to stay, but he refuses ... here I think it is because he doesn't want to get too close ... like he did with Paris and Tracy ... who both died. At this point, I don't think he wants another King to die, M's friend has just died, so he doesn't want his daughter to too. That's what I think at any rate.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by zencat

I really hate the M "This will not stand" speech. What is she, running for public office here? I feel like M standing up and suddenly making this oh-so-Maggie-Thatcher-like speech ("get it?" wink the filmmakers) is completely out of character and out of context.

It's strange how naive and shockable M is in TWINE. She seems absolutely staggered that anyone would assassinate King, as though bumping people off isn't part of the daily grind in the world of the James Bond films. Watching that scene as it played on TV the other day, I half expected her to exclaim: "Must be a pretty sick collection of minds to come up with a stunt like that."

M is also flabbergasted to see Bond getting it on with Christmas. Okay, so she may not have seen him "in action" before, but she knows what 007 is like. She comes across like an outraged headmistress who's caught the squeaky-clean head boy smoking behind the bike sheds.

TWINE just gets more bizarre with each viewing, but at least we don't have to fear the Brosnan equivalent of A VIEW TO A KILL. We've already got it.

[zencat]

I

[Blue Eyes]

Actually if I had to give it thought, it's not because of M's orders.

Rather I'd suggest it's because Bond, until this point, sees her more of a child. And I don't meant that in the sense of the word, but he has this response to keep her safe (as a father would) because she's been so 'damaged' over the past few years.

"I don't want to be safe" or whatever she says is his turning point. She may be damanged, but she's still in control and living.

[Xenobia]

Zencat....perhaps I am nuts (no laughter in the peanut gallery please), but as I recall, it doesn't directly cut from Bond's "I can't" to the Can-Can in Elektra's room. I think he does say "This is a game I can't afford to play" and she gives the "Life is not worth living if you can't feel alive" line. Evidently, Bond agrees because after *that* moment, they are in bed.

I think. Thank you for giving me the excuse to go home and check the DVD.

-- Xenobia

[zencat]

Yes! You're right Blue Eyes. I think he does see her as a child and himself as a father figure here. Yuck! (Again, it's Gardner's Bond.)

Maybe that's what bothers me so much about this scene. It chafes me right at my maturity level.

[Xenobia]

Is it that Bond sees Elektra as a child, or as an innocent, an ingenuine. There is a difference. Does that make you feel better Zencat?

-- Xenobia

[zencat]

Originally posted by Xenobia
Is it that Bond sees Elektra as a child, or as an innocent, an ingenuine.  There is a difference.  Does that make you feel better Zencat?

No. I want Bond to see Electra the way I see her; a sexy, strong, capable woman in an amazing red dress who wants my double-oh and she wants it now.

"I can't," says Bond, shuffling his feet and blushing bashfully.

Who is this guy??

Yes, the mature man in me is saying,

[zencat]

Originally posted by Xenobia
Zencat....perhaps I am nuts (no laughter in the peanut gallery please), but as I recall, it doesn't directly cut from Bond's "I can't" to the Can-Can in Elektra's room.  I think he does say "This is a game I can't afford to play" and she gives the "Life is not worth living if you can't feel alive" line.  Evidently, Bond agrees because after *that* moment, they are in bed...

I think you might be right about that Xen. But this makes it even worse. It still the same as

[Blue Eyes]

I'm fine with the "Let's get down to business" line in DAD, because I do think there are people who would use that in real life. I believe it's come out of my mouth once or twice.

But I do agree with Zencat on the line. While I have an understanding of it, how can Bond not 'afford' to play the game? If he said "shouldn't" then yeah, by all means. But 'afford'?

[zencat]

While we

[Harmsway]

Yeah, TWINE is fully of nonsensical Bond dialogue and overemoting. DAD was a huge improvement.

[PaulZ108]

I agree about the overdramatic moments in TWINE. It's things like that that make me weary of Brosnan getting too much influence. He's all hung up on making Bond deeper and more emotional and "acting." People go on and on about how great it is that Brosnan's Bond shows fear and compassion and sorrow and I really don't think those are traits that the film Bond should show much at all. Brosnan's best moments as Bond seem to be when he's just going through the motions and playing it naturally...alot like Connery. When he's actually trying to "act" it just doesn't work. "Drama" should be almost nonexistant in a Bond film.

[zencat]

I'm with you on that, PaulZ108.

[Xenobia]

I think I want to bring this back to Bond and Elektra for a minute.

Let's try to remember that even though TND ended with Bond about to shag Wai Lin, he also lost Paris Carver in that movie, a woman he cared for deeply.

Now we get to TWINE. Bond is a well informed man; he knows what happened to Elektra without seeing the news clips or articles, he lived through it. Perhaps he felt sorry that she was kidnapped. Perhaps he was captivated by her beauty and charm.

Suddenly, she is in front of him, and very clearly wants him. And it is equally clear that she is frightened by what has happened to her father, but isn't about to let this stop her from living her life. Still, she is hurting, and Bond's not sure if Elektra wants him because he is the sexiest man God ever created, or because she just wants to connect with *someone* to take the pain away for a few minutes. (Something that Bond understands and does himself, and does not wish that kind of need on others.)

Yes Elektra is her own woman: she can support herself comfortably, she lives her life well, she would probably be very interesting in bed, and can cook a berenaise sause. She has in her father someone who was willing to do anything for her....In other words, Bond is reminded of Tracy and finds himself looking at someone he could love. An yet, he knows what happens to the women he loves.

So there is she asking him to take her home, take her to bed, and he wants to. He really wants to. He wants to comfort her. He wants her to help him forget for a while. But, Bond also knows love is not an option for him, not with her, not with anyone.

"This is a game I can't afford to play."

"Life is not worth living if you can't feel alive."

Ah! Alive. To be alive again. Well, just for a moment. For a night. Alright. Just for tonight. Just until he can find Renard. Besides, if he is with her, Renard is not. That's right. Being that close to Elektra protects her. It's alright. It's just for tonight.

Does that make sense Zencat?

-- Xenobia

[11 11]

I have no problems with Bond and Electra. My problem is Bond and Jones.

I am sorry but no way Bond has anything to do with her. That whole thing was just bizzarre. TWINE actually became a Bond spoof by the end with Richards, Renard, and Bond on that sub. The characters had just become so odd by that point.

I still think TWINE is a great Bond, maybe the best Bond minus Richards, but unfortunately with her in it TWINE is my least favorite Bond.

As to the "I can't" then the next seen he is, well Bond films are famous for being smart *** so.

[brendan007]

i remember in the TWINE audio commentary david arnold had no idea what was going on in the casino scene either. i think after bond said 'this is a game i cant afford to play' arnold muttered something like 'ive never actually understood what bond means by that' or something.

[11 11]

Doesn't it just mean that he wants nothing to do with self distruction?

[zencat]

Originally posted by Xenobia
Does that make sense Zencat?

Actually, my dear Xen, it does. That is a beautiful explanation of the motivations behind this scene. But the larger questions is, do we want such complex motivations in a James Bond movie, or is the "you Tarzan me Jane" (aka: the Bond Jinx seduction) all the motivation we need? Does anything beyond this gum up the fun?

But you've also answered that for me, Xen. The fact that TWINE worked for you--a very sharp Bond fan--tells me it is indeed okay to have a Bond film that tries to go deeper every once in a while. Why not? I think I can watch TWINE now in same way I watch LTK. I think LTK is completely wrong-headed in its approached to 007, but I still like it because it's such a strange experiment. After 40 years and 20 films, it

[Jim]

Originally posted by Xenobia


Perhaps he felt sorry that she was kidnapped.  Perhaps he was captivated by her beauty and charm.  

Suddenly, she is in front of him, and very clearly wants him...Still, she is hurting, and Bond's not sure if Elektra wants him because he is the sexiest man God ever created, or because she just wants to connect with *someone* to take the pain away for a few minutes.  (Something that Bond understands and does himself, and does not wish that kind of need on others.)

...In other words, Bond is reminded of Tracy and finds himself looking at someone he could love.  

...He wants to comfort her.  He wants her to help him forget for a while.   But, Bond also knows love is not an option for him, not with her, not with anyone.

Ah!  Alive.  To be alive again.  Well, just for a moment. For a night.  Alright.  Just for tonight.  Just until he can find Renard. Besides, if he is with her, Renard is not. That's right. Being that close to Elektra protects her.  It's alright.  It's just for tonight.

Does that make sense?

-- Xenobia

All makes sense in abstract.

But remind me - James Bond film, wasn't it?

[zencat]

Another bit of TWINE dialogue that misses the mark when it really could have done wonders for a character, is the exchange between Bond and Christmas (I forget exactly where it takes place--I think after the pipe explosion). Bond asks her the question everyone in the audience is asking; "What are you doing all the way out here?" (or something like this.) Christmas answers with the vague; "Avoiding questions like that."

Again, this sort of means something, I guess...but I think all it really does is tell us Christmas is a smart-***, and not a very quick-witted one at that. And how does this explain the fact that she

[Xenobia]

And therein lies the problem with Christmas Jones.

I spent an entire post explaining the dialogue of Elektra and Bond to you and it made sense to you because I had enough background information between the dialogue and the other non verbal acting of Marceau and Brosnan to be able to back myself up.

Then we get to Christmas and Bond and there is not enough there in Richards' body language to explain "Avoiding questions like that." Maybe the good doctor has been hurt by men, maybe she had a rough time advancing in grad. school, maybe she couldn't advance because she was hurt by men...whatever. We just don't know where to go with this, because Richards gives us very little to go on.

Yes, this Bond fan wanted a little more than cool talk and hot action. I actually like a little emotion in my Bond. It is just as much for me as Bond's eating euphism in DAD.

-- Xenobia

[Martini]

My theory for this "I can

[iceberg]

Originally posted by Xenobia
And therein lies the problem with Christmas Jones.

I spent an entire post explaining the dialogue of Elektra and Bond to you and it made sense to you because I had enough background information between the dialogue and the other non verbal acting of Marceau and Brosnan to be able to back myself up.

Then we get to Christmas and Bond and there is not enough there in Richards' body language to explain "Avoiding questions like that." Maybe the good doctor has been hurt by men, maybe she had a rough time advancing in grad. school, maybe she couldn't advance because she was hurt by men...whatever. We just don't know where to go with this, because Richards gives us very little to go on.

Yes, this Bond fan wanted a little more than cool talk and hot action. I actually like a little emotion in my Bond. It is just as much for me as Bond's eating euphism in DAD.

-- Xenobia

Thank you, Zen. I have always been intrigued by that exchange:

Bond: What about you? What's your story? What are you doing in Kazakstan?

Christmas: Avoiding those kinds of questions, same as you.

Unlike others, I don't think it was a flat line. I think it hints at her background. Upon first seeing TWINE, after that scene, I thought that they were setting up for something later wherein we find out a little more about Christmas. But it never happened, so there was no payoff.

And the same exact things that Xen touched on above (past hurts, personal problems) were the ones I thought of too. I have always thought that nothing makes one forget a broken heart like a new world. Perhaps Dr. Jones volunteered for the IDA posting in Kazakstan to overcome a damaged past. I wish the writers would have given this background to Christmas. A small scene later with Bond that elaborates on the 'avoiding questions' response. It would have been a nice addition to the complexity of the other characters. The film would have been balanced, with two complex Bond girls, instead of one fleshed out one, and one underwritten one.

But I am fully aware that most Bond fans don't want complexity and depth in their Bond films. I am part of the small minority that welcomes it. That is fine. To each his or her own, I suppose....

Long story short, I understood and was comfortable with all the vague and 'uncharacteristic' lines in Bond....

[Contessa]

I'm with you on this one, Xenobia and Iceberg. I'd rather watch a movie that at least made me think than one in which every scene is cut-and-dried. Of course, most action movie producers and directors don't believe any audience want to think, so they just resort to explosions and CGI.

When I watch the "I can't" scene, it makes sense from a realistic POV. It makes Bond seem more like a human being than a playboy. Because Elektra is the daughter of the man he failed to protect--a close friend of M's--Bond doesn't think it would be smart to get entangled with her. To him, emotion doesn't mix with business. When Bond says, "This is a game I can't afford to play," he's talking about himself both as a professional and as a man. Because of the investigation into King's death, Bond can't afford to lose objectivity, and he also can't afford any distractions. As a man, he doesn't want to face loss again as he did with the death of Tracy.

I'll admit, though, the quick jump into the sack after these scenes doesn't make a lot of sense. Elektra's response when Bond tells her he can't become involved is just "I know." I've always felt that there was an important scene cut here.

Or maybe the producers just thought, "Time to relent to the audience." I remember when I saw the "I can't" scene for the first time in the theater a group of teenage boys started boo-ing. It showed me how far away their thinking was from mine.

[iceberg]

Originally posted by Contessa

    I'll admit, though, the quick jump into the sack after these scenes doesn't make a lot of sense.  Elektra's response when Bond tells her he can't become involved is just "I know."  I've always felt that there was an important scene cut here.

   

In the screenplay draft I read, after that scene Bond takes Elektra home. She goes up to go to bed, he stays in the foyer, looking up after her. Right before she goes upstairs, she turns and gives him a seductive glance. Then she heads up. After a long beat, Bond follows. Then we get to the bedroom scene we are all familiar with.

Nothing major, but at least it showed more of his hesitancy, and then his passion overriding his judgement.

[ChrisMarvel2002]

Bond was afaird to be involved with Electra because he was falling for
her. This wasn't just another women he could bang,and move on. He was
falling for her. She seduced him. And after Tracey he Is recluent to want
to be In what could be a relationship with a women than Is just not quick
sex. Besiedes If Sophie Marceau was trying to seduce you It would be
hard to say no.