52 replies to this topic

[5 BONDS]

As one reviewer states:


"The Bourne Identity is fast-paced, highly enjoyable thriller and a nice antidote to the silly James Bond pictures, as evidenced by the lame Die Another Day. I, for one, am glad the film was a hit, because it likely means more. If future installments are as well-made, well-acted and as tightly-wound as this one, then for once the idea of a sequel is good news indeed."



This reviewer as well as many others out there has a point.

I think so too and Bond needs to get better if the franchise needs to survive in the future.

[Turn]

I haven't seen Bourne yet, but would like to, so I can't judge it compared with DAD. I believe there are several books about Bourne, which wouldn't hurt the chances for a sequel. Sounds like another series I know.

When it reaches its 20th installment, then maybe it can bring comparisons with Bond. Even then, there will likely be 40 Bond films.

I don't like to point to box office as a comparison, but Bourne didn't come close to having DAD's grosses.

[11 11]

Bourne Identity was a very good movie, better than DAD.

For one, I do not like Matt Damon
Another thing, is it lacks the Bond qualities.

The issue however is simple, if Bond contiues to throw at dumb downed movies, which the last 3 Bonds were all very dumb downed.

It will not be long at all before Bond is dead.

I guarantee a couple mre DAD's, which MGM says are on the way, and the box office may take a big dive.

If these morons at EON or MGM had any clue they would realize that with Connery, Lazenby, Moore and Dalton's films there were constant changes.

EON made changes all the time, and they made unique Bonds all the time.

OHMSS
TMWGG
DAF
LALD
MR
AVTAK
LTK
YOLT

You get the idea, the thing is even though some fans may not like this, for example many do not like the change with TMWGG, and although the box office may be less, in the long run, that ia how you keep a series going. To simply make sequels such as

TND
TND 2(TWINE)
TND 3(DAD).... that is a huge gigantic mistake.

Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman were extremely shrewd business men, the heirs simply do not have the first clue what they are doing.

People forget that with out a OHMSS or a LTK or a Dalton or Lazenby, or a TMWGG or a MR etc., that eventually people will get totally bored with Bond.

If they make TND 4 for Bond 21, people will begin to lose interest.
This is not rocket science, yet it seems the Broccoli family never listened to what their father tried to teach them.

[Turn]

11 11, I've read two separate threads in which you post that TWINE is a TND sequel of sorts. How can you say this when they are completely different films as far as the intention. TND's emphasis is more on action and TWINE focuses more on the human interaction and the action is toned down somewhat.

The TND-DAD connection is that both films have very good first halfs and fall apart due to nearly all-out action in the last half or finales. I believe all of the Brosnan films have separate identities:

GE is the return of Bond after 6 years, plunging him into the 90s with a new slant of an enemy who knows him.
TND is Eon's anwer to the all-out action film (although there is good spy stuff and personal stuff in there too).
TWINE is about Bond having to deal with his own demons when he lets his emotions get in the way of a job. Less emphasis on action.
DAD is a hybrid of an old-style Bond film with a first half of intrigue followed by a second half of mindless action in the MR tradition.

As I said in another post, the stale element for me is seeing the finale be Bond and the girl against the bad guy and his entire force. And maybe one too many chases with the gadget-rigged cars.

I agree the films need to change from time to time, but I am not sure how these films don't have separate identities. And how can you say people will get bored when all the Brosnan films have been huge successes and DAD is the biggest blockbuster yet?

[Blue Eyes]

Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman were extremely shrewd business men, the heirs simply do not have the first clue what they are doing.

That's an extremely bold statement to make, unless your name is Steven Speilberg.

[rafterman]

you can't say they don't know what they're doing, they learned from the best, plus Mickey was very instrumental back when Cubby was around, they co-produced the films, it's better to just say they're not the same...

[11 11]

Ok, don't get all pissy on me here. That is just the way I see it. Am I not intitled to an opinion?

Look, the fact is the last three Bonds were very predictable. Now the old Bonds were somewhat predictable, but compare say DAD to a TB or GF, and I think you can see what I mean.

I really do not think the new Broccoli heirs do know what they are doing.
It is simple first you have TND=mindless action movie

This is followed by TWINE=mindless action movie, which is followed by
DAD=mindless action movie

Now I am not saying that these are the same movie or whatever, I am not saying they are a trilogy or anything like that.

What I am saying is they took TND, then they recycled it into TWINE, then they took TWINE and recycled it into DAD, or they recylced TND again into DAD.

The way the movies are laid out, the beginning, the middle, the end, the use of the characters, villians, the action, etc. it is all the same thing rehashed.

Now that is not to say they have not recycled other Bonds, for instance AVTAK was a GF remake.

But AVTAK was cleverly made into a totally new film.

With TWINE they just said ok hers TND now lets change the motive for Bond the scenes, the villians. where Bond ends up, the Bond girl and guess what here is TWINE.

Then again with DAD. I can easily see this is what they have done. Just the way the movies are broken down you can see this. Just think about 20 minute intervals in the films and you can see this is what they have done.

My point is that will begin to become obvious if they keep it up. I mentioned the satelites because I mean really as just one example.

Austin Powers will be using this like he uses the nuke jokes problably. ONly the satelites has gone way past the nukes in recent films.

They just seem to have hit a wall, so in DAD they have an invisble car, the para skiing or not sure what that was to be etc. It is very easy to just come up with far fetched nonsense rather than have new good ideas.

That is all I am saying. I just believe looking at Cubby and Saltzman they never kept repeating on the same ideas in films in succession. Even though they stuck to the Bond formula they tried to throw some curves in the Bond films.

Seems like now EON just says her is Brosnan, here is the Bond formula now make a ton of money. Eventually people do tire of that even if it is Bond.

[Blue Eyes]

I really do not think the new Broccoli heirs do know what they are doing.
It is simple first you have TND=mindless action movie

This is followed by TWINE=mindless action movie, which is followed by
DAD=mindless action movie

Well seeing it's so simple, Cubby gave us Moonraker. And a Moor who talks to tigers and swings like Tarsan.

Does that mean that Cubby didn't know what he was doing?

It's very simple to look back at 17 films and say that over four films, two people obviously don't have the first idea isn't? But if they didn't have the first idea, then there wouldn't be four films to look back at.

[solitaire]

I really liked "The Bourne Identity",it was a good thriller. I don't really compare it to DAD though,which I thought was great entertainment,like most Bond films. Both films are in the "spy genre",but that's where the similarities end. Bond films are just predictible and camp at this point,and i'm so tired of people saying Bond has been around 40 years and 20 films,so what?. That just proves that the producers are greedy,and have run out of fresh ideas. As much as I loved DAD,it really should have been a reinvention of the genre for this anniversary.

[Roebuck]

Trying to be fair here, Cubby and Harry did have the advantage of the original Fleming material to work with. With that in mind my wishlist for the future would be

A writing team who would concentrate on crafting a solid espionage story rather than working to EON's Bond movie template. Pinching stuff from Moonraker and ineptly trying to shoehorn it into your own script does not equate with having the 'Fleming Sweep'.

Limit the action scenes. As Bourne showed, a few well done action scenes spaced throughout the film can be more satisfying to an audience than 45 minutes crammed with lazy set-pieces, slow-mo and wire work.

Make 'em shorter. If you can fill two hours interestingly that's fine and dandy. But on the last three outings I found myself starting to glance at my watch twenty minutes before the finish. Which brings me to...

Endings. Tamahori decided he'd like to shake up the formula by having Bond fight the villain on a disintegrating transport plane then escape with the girl. How is this different from the ending with the disintegrating sub from TWINE. Or the disintegrating stealth ship from TND? Bond arranges inventive death for main villain. Fight with henchperson. Escape. Where is this shaking up the formula?

[iceberg]

Originally posted by 5 BONDS


"The Bourne Identity is fast-paced, highly enjoyable thriller and a nice antidote to the silly James Bond pictures, as evidenced by the lame Die Another Day. I, for one, am glad the film was a hit, because it likely means more. If future installments are as well-made, well-acted and as tightly-wound as this one, then for once the idea of a sequel is good news indeed."  

Comparing THE BOURNE IDENTITY to DIE ANOTHER DAY is like comparing DEAD CALM to TITANIC.

In the end, it's about entertainment without too much of an insult to one's alleged intelligence. I loved TBI. I liked DAD. In the end, they both entertained me, but they don't warrant comparisons.

[SecretAgentX-9]

The Bourne Identity and DAD can be compared, since both are action-adventure spy thrillers.
Concerning the ending, well, Bond had lots of finales in planes (GF, OP, TLD).
Concerning The Bourne Identity, well none (and I do mean none) of the action sequences advances the plot (unlike TND, which personally I am not that crazy about) and we end up not knowing about the Bourne identity. The mystery was not explored, they should have been just a bit more faithful to the novel (Bourne's real name is Jack Webber, by the way).
I did enjoy TBI, but it was not that great either, for reasons I mentioned above.
Anyhow, I do think there should be other good spy franchises (lets see what they make out of Matt Helm, or if John Travolta does make Quiller Solitaire), since it would make the filmmakers put a bit of more effort into Bond (they did try in DAD) and for the sole personal reason that I adore spy thrillers (they could use other Ludlum novels for Jason Bourne, since in book form it's a trilogy).
Chhers, be here and be well.

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by SecretAgentX-9
Bourne's real name is Jack Webber, by the way.

David Webb isn't it? I think you're confusing him with the 'Dragnet' guy.

[SecretAgentX-9]

Yes, sorry, you are quite right, it is David Webb.

[JimmyBond]

What's the point of this thread? Just cause a reviewer says something doesnt make it a fact.

Oh wait, I saw something too:

"DAD is highly a enjoyable movie" see, I can play the quote game too

[Blue Eyes]

Anyone can. It's like using statistics, you can manipulated them which ever way.

For instance, using the original;

"Die Another Day ... was a hit, because it [was] well-made, well-acted and as tightly-wound."

And that quote is about as valid as the original.

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by JimmyBond
What's the point of this thread? Just cause a reviewer says something doesnt make it a fact.

I think the point was to start a discussion (this being a discussion forum and all that). In my opinion this reviewer highlights something which has serious implications for the future of my favourite movie series. DAD is not a film for grown ups. It's CGI eye-candy with paper cut outs taking the place of properly realised characters. I saw it opening night and enjoyed it, but it doesn't have the kind of depth that makes me want to rush back and watch it again anytime soon. Has it taken a lot of money at the box office? Sure. So did the last two Star Wars movies, but many of those fans feel they're supporting out of loyalty a franchise that's not living up to their expectations.

[SecretAgentX-9]

I have to disgree when Roebuck says DAD was not for grown-ups. In TWINE and DAD they (film makers) have been trying to put slight twist to the formula. They just can't please everybody. I don't think DAD was a bad movie (quite on the contrary), I think it's one of the best. My comments go to the fact that I do think the second half of DAD should have been better.
My other comment goes to why I think that it is healthy to have other spy franchises and such, I think competition should be good, since should hold his own against rival franchises (xXx who? - I don't dislike Vin Diesel but the vilain's caper was just stupid, pardon my harshness).

[walther ppk]

I realy liked bourne and thought that it was an excellent film, but bonds bond and is a cut above the rest... However.
I want another Goldeneye to bring bond back down to the bond we know rather that a cheap action film like xXx.
I want the next film to be a typical england vs russia cold war spy film, rather than the invisible car changing face moonraker style unbelivability of DAD.

Still absolutly loved DAD though....

[Blue Eyes]

The Bond films always sway back and forth as the are made over the years. Look back at any of them and you'll see that. Moonraker was followed by Octopussy, two vastly different films.

For those with genuine concerns that the future of Bond is simply 'CGI Eye Candy', as someone put it, only need to look to the past to see that a future Bond film will be orientated a different way.

[DanMan]

Sorry if this sounds rude, but do any of you DAD-Bashers have a life, because all you seem to do is critisize a great film. You have your opinions but stop stating over and over and over and over and over and over (am I done yet?) again. I think some DAD-Haters are even getting sick of this bashing to. Oops, did I just say that out loud?

[Truman-Lodge]

This is the way I see it:

I can't think of very many people who hated the first half of DAD. Why not make Bond 21 like the first half of DAD then? It'll please everyone. I hope that's what MGM meant when they said "more of the same".

[JackChase007]

Personally, I love both movies. For me, they both have a great re-watch value. I was very surprised by Bourne because I am not a huge Matt Damon fan, although I do know that he can be good. For you fans out there, I do know that Damon claimed that they intend to do a sequel, "The Bourne Supremacy", which was the title of the second "Jason Bourne" novel in that trilogy (the third novel being "The Bourne Ultimatum"). Personally, I would love to see them make at least two more "Bourne" films - they had a great formula for the first one - it wasn't all out action, but it was still fun to watch (and just recently, I got the connection in the film where the hitman The Professor (played by CLIVE OWEN) is driving a BMW. Very clever. Also, this film has my favorite actor, Brian Cox.

As for Bourne in comparison with DAD - you can't really compare them too much. One's a espionage thriller (more in the vein of the Ludlum novel, or even a Fleming Bond novel) and the other one is a spy action film. If they want to make a Bond film that could satisfy both the general public AND Bond fans (which would be quite a feat), they should steal the crew from Bourne - Doug Liman really seemed to have a great eye for espionage.

But yes - let them make The Bourne Supremacy and The Bourne Ultimatum. Hell, I would not mind them making more movies past that. I don't see these films as a threat to Bond - I think DAD proved that no spy film/series/franchise could even measure up to good ol' 007.

[JackChase007]

Oh yes, and I was glad to see that someone brought up about Bourne's real identity (an aspect of the novel that they left out of the movie). Yes, his name is David Webb - Bourne was the name of the man who worked with him in the Vietnam War, but betrayed their unit, so Webb killed him. I hope they somehow incorporate that idea into the next film (maybe that's what he's calling himself then, now that "Jason Bourne" is "dead"). And they did have a tendency to underplay some good actors - Clive Owen was given a very small bit, as was the gorgeous Julia Stiles - a good actress, but unnecessary for the part (it was a small role - they should have added more substance to the character, or had a lesser-known person play her).

[mkkbb]

I thought The Bourne Identity was boring and not very entertaining. THe best bit though was when he was escaping from the Bank and was left on that little walkway and had to climb down the wall.

Don't judge me wrong, I love slow thrillers, like the Jack Ryan films and Seven etc, but TBI was just not very entertaining. I had no motivation/enthusiasm to see it again.

DAD, on the other hand, rocked. And I could watch it over and over again.

[daman3755]

To be fairly honest, "The Bourne Identity" is a much better film than DAD in some aspects. I think Matt Damon is a pretty good actor. He was strong in "Good Will Hunting" and hilarious in "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back." However, Doug Liman, a director who usually directs small artsy independent flicks, composed a film that is more thinking than action. "The Bourne Identity" has GREAT action sequences when they occur - hell, they don't need CGI to do exploisions or tight car chases in Paris (nothing can beat the chase in "Ronin" I say) or wire tricks for hand-to-hand combat. I got really engrossed with "The Bourne Identity" but I still felt like something was missing. I rented the VHS version and noticed the DVD version has deleted scenes. I'm willing to bet these scenes could make the movie a better watching experience. I'd give "The Bourne Identity" a solid B+. I still think DAD is an A- - ONCE you factor those deleted scenes that the American viewers didn't get to see. "The Bourne Identity" is a great watch, even though a bit slow to start, but once it gets rolling you keep asking questions. You think you know what'll happen next, but then another rug is pulled from underneath you and you're back to square one. Very good film. I hope they do the planned sequel.

[DLibrasnow]

I heard that the sequel is already in the works for a 2004 release. It will be based on the follow-up novel by Ludlum named "The Bourne Supremacy" and again star Matt Damon.
I personally loved the movie "The Bourne Identity" I have seen it three times so far. I am not sure how they will be able to do "The Bourne Supremacy" since a lot of that has to do with the British Hong Kong thing.
Still I will be in line to see it when the sequel comes out.
How many novels did Ludlum write in the Jason Bourne series??

[JackChase007]

There were only three:

[iceberg]

If I had to compare THE BOURNE IDENTITY to any Bond film (which is a questionable thing to do, at best since I think they're apples and oranges), I think THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS would be it. They're both tense, compact, cohesive, fairly realistic (emphasis on fairly) and gritty.

I, too, am looking forward to the Bourne sequels.

[KMHPaladin]

I frankly enjoyed The Bourne Identity more than Die Another Day. Part of it doubtless had to do with greater expectations for a Bond movie, but nonetheless I thought TBI was better than the whole of DAD. I pray that the Broccolis take notice.