57 replies to this topic

[Carver]

I think we've had a thread about what Fleming would think of DAD, so here's a ''spin-off'' of sorts. What might Fleming think of the acting in DAD of Halle Berry and Rosamund Pike? The allter I thought was superb, a brilliant performance from an unkown actress in the movie world. Before DAD, you could have heard me talking about how bad she was for the role, and how she wasn't good looking. But, after seeing the film twice, my mind was completely changed, and I agree with all fans of our Brit. She was brilliant, and as Madge put it: ''gorgeous''. Now, we come to Halle, who was a good pick for the role. She is a stunning woman, perfect for the action role, but she lacked the pure talen of acting that Pike has. She can't really deliver her lines as good as Pike, and sounds too corny when trying to be slick. She was good, but second-rate compared to Pike, award or no award. Ok, before this becomes a Pike loving-Berry basing thread (which it isn't meant to be, sorry) what its really about is what Fleming might have though of out 2 leading ladies. What I think he would have thought is: he might have thought Halle good for action role, as a ''Bond equal'' and her good looks would have made her as memorable as Ursula Andress, but he would have favoured Pike for the main role. He might not have had Halle as such a corny NSA agent, but rather a slicker, laid back character, while Pike would have had a more central role, and maybe not have been killed. I don't think DAD went they way Fleming would have wanted it to go, and we know what he though of Sir Sean as Bond, but he isn't alive to tell us, god bless him. So, what might have he had thought of Berry and Pike, good or bad? Opinions...

[Red Widow Dawn]

Woo! I got here first!

Well, Carver. Fleming didn't think it was possible for beautiful women to be evil. It's a throwback to Victorian society. That's why the only evil women in Fleming's books are ugly -- Rosa Klebb and Irma Bunt.

Fleming also wasn't a fan of traitors. Unlike the novels of Le Carr

[Red Widow Dawn]

Oh...I only talked about Miranda Frost.

Jinx? Hmm...I don't know.

Wait, were you talking about the actresses or characters?

If you're talking about the actresses...well...hell, Fleming would love any attractive woman.

[Carver]

Well, I was kind of talking about both, Red Widow D. Their sex appeal, experience as actresses, their acting abilities (not just in DAD, other films too), and how well they performed in the movie itself.

[Red Widow Dawn]

Okay...let's see

Sex appeal: I think he'd like them (Jinx being half-black might pose I problem, but I won't go there)

Experience as actresses: back in his days, it wasn't uncommon to stick totally unexperienced actresses into major roles. This was the case with Ursula Andress, Daniella Bianchi, Claudine Auger, and Jane Seymour. It probably wouldn't have mattered much to him.

Acting abilities: this is the most difficult to determine. I would say that he would like Pike, but hate Berry. But only because that's my own opinion.

Hope that sheds some light on it.

[Bryce (003)]

I think old Ian would have loved them.

I seem to recall a quote:

"There's always something to love about a women...or lust after".

That might have been Noel Coward or Ernie Cuneo's quote, but it certainly wouldn't be all that strange to hear from Fleming.

[1q2w3e4r]

Considering there seems to be a little underlyling lesbianism in Miss Frost. By this i mean, the scene with Verity in Blades and her nice look of appriciation at her when she removes her helment and the way she looks at Jinx and feels her clothes while delivering the "that's pretty tight tailoring." line i'd say that Fleming would have heeded his advice and found her irresistable.

[Diamond'sFrost]

I don't know what Fleming would have thought about Rosamund and Halle, but I definitly would have chosen Rosamund over Halle. Halle was unable to deliver her lines with precision and expertise like what Rosa did, which made Rosa seem so much more memorable. Perhaps the only thing that was memorable about Halle's performance was how badly it was. The producers completely need to rethink her casting because it just wasn't right for a Bond film.

[solitaire]

Ian Fleming was a racist,who clearly would not have allowed the casting of a black woman (Halle) no matter how beautiful. It really does'nt tkae a rocket scientist to figure out his preference would have been for the blonde (and oh so bland) Rosamund Pike. As for acting ability,Halle has already proven herself a grear actress,and did'nt do a Bond film to exercise her thespian skills. She had nothing to prove. Rosamund is a novice,and she did a good job,for what she had to do. Neither actress was served well by the **** script and dialogue they had to work with. Does everyone get the thrust of it?

[White Persian]

Originally posted by solitaire
Ian Fleming was a racist,who clearly would not have allowed the casting of a black woman (Halle) no matter how beautiful.

I'd suggest that the very sympathetic portrayal of the black girl, Tiffy, in TMWTGG, and the Japanese heroine in YOLT , belie this accusation.

Certainly Fleming was a man of his times, and many of his attitudes today seem politically incorrect, but such an assumption as the above is drawing a very long bow.

[White Persian]

As to the original question, I'd say that Rosamund Pike's elegant ice maiden would have appealed enormously to Fleming, though whether he'd have found her character's actions and motivations any more convincing than than the rest of the audience I doubt.

I suspect that Fleming would have found Jinx's sassiness and in-your-face attitude a turn off. Nothing to do with racism, but a lot to do with the manners of his time. He'd probably have considered the character vulgar.

[solitaire]

"Man of his times".......translation....Racist

[JimmyBond]

That didnt keep him from making the main Bond girl of Live and Let Die black (the book, not the movie, you should read it sometimes). Fleming was a bit against black people, but I dont think he was racist.

[solitaire]

Originally posted by JimmyBond
That didnt keep him from making the main Bond girl of Live and Let Die black (the book, not the movie, you should read it sometimes). Fleming was a bit against black people, but I dont think he was racist.

There is no such thing as being " a bit against black people". He was a racist pure and simple. As for the book,I have read it (unfortunately) which is precisely why I know he was a racist. Anyone who reads even one of his crappy books would see that instantly.

[DLibrasnow]

I thought Rosamund Pike had the face like the *** of some dog, very unattractive in my opinion...
Halle Berry on the hand is simply gorgeous...
I don't think Fleming would have approved of the Miranda Frost character, as has been pointed out he didn't like traitors, and he adored beautiful women, so I believe he would have liked Jinx but disapproved of Miranda...
<>

[Mister Asterix]

Never read a crappy Fleming book, but I have read all of his Bond books, plus a couple of his others. I do think Fleming was racist as most people of the generation were, however Fleming was able to see past his racism when individuals were concerned. Fleming, I believe, would have found Halle Berry exotic and sexy, and he would have found the fact that she is half-white particularly desirable.

As for Rosamund, I think Fleming would have liked everything about except possibly the hair colour. Fleming seemed to have a preference for dark-haired woman. Though I don't think that would have stopped him from finding her alluring.

[solitaire]

Originally posted by Mister Asterix
Never read a crappy Fleming book, but I have read all of his Bond books, plus a couple of his others. I do think Fleming was racist as most people of the generation were, however Fleming was able to see past his racism when individuals were concerned. Fleming, I believe, would have found Halle Berry exotic and sexy, and he would have found the fact that she is half-white particularly desirable.

As for Rosamund, I think Fleming would have liked everything about except possibly the hair colour. Fleming seemed to have a preference for dark-haired woman. Though I don't think that would have stopped him from finding her alluring.

He was able to see past is racism where individuals were concerned? or only when he wanted to **** a hot black chick;)
So you think he would have found Halle "exotic and sexy" huh? and her being half white particularly desirable. That's the worst kind of racist,he would'nt even see her as real person,just a sex object. What a piece of **** he was.

[Loomis]

Well, this is all conjecture. Have any of us met Fleming or discussed his views on race with him? Where's the proof?

And, don't forget, he's no longer around to defend himself.

If he was racist, would he have spent so much time in Jamaica? If he was homophobic, would he have befriended Noel Coward? (BTW, Bryce, I very much doubt that it was Coward who lived by the words "There's always something to love about a women...or lust after";).)

I haven't read much Fleming (yes, I know, "positively shocking" for a Bond fan), but White Persian mentions "the very sympathetic portrayal of the black girl, Tiffy, in TMWTGG, and the Japanese heroine in YOLT". I did read LIVE AND LET DIE way back in 1990, and, as I recall, the portrayal of Mr Big seemed a notable attempt at the time to create a formidably intelligent black character (albeit a villain) in popular fiction.

But, anyway, I hardly think Fleming was Adolf Hitler, and, BTW, not all racists are white.

[Red Widow Dawn]

Several things I must point out:

1) Solitaire was not black in the novel. She was of French heritage (I think) and was described as having pale skin (which I found a bit odd).

2) Nevertheless, Fleming did want to make Solitaire black. I recall that Glidrose put the kybosh on that.

3) Fleming was an elitist, but not a racist - for all of the points mentioned above, plus the fact that Bond's child is half-Japanese. (<-- spoiler)

[Carver]

Originally posted by solitaire
So you think he would have found Halle "exotic and sexy" huh? and her being half white particularly desirable. That's the worst kind of racist,he would'nt even see her as real person,just a sex object. What a piece of **** he was.

You can't really blame Fleming IF he was racist, as Mr* pointed out, most of his generation were slightly racist, and so there wasn't much choice really. He can't have been that racist, as people have said, why would he have lived in Jamaica if he couldn't stand the sight of coloured people? And I don't think that he just saw women as sex objects, yes, he based the Bond character on himself, a womaniser whose relationships didn't last, but he didn't look at women as sex objects. Yes, he did like a bit of casual sex here and there, but he was a charming, classy man, not just the type of person who went out purely for sex, he treated women like they should be treated-as ladies, which they are. He respected women, so we should respect him for this and not go around calling him names. This isn't the right place to dis Fleming really, so I suggest you don't go around calling him names:o

[Red Widow Dawn]

Good show, Carver.

[solitaire]

So let me get this straight....Fleming was'nt a racist because he lived in Jamaica (which was a british colony at the time) surrounded by "colored" people? That has got to be one of the dumbest things i've ever heard,with that logic,all of the white people in South Africa (and any other colony on the planet) just loved all the natives to pieces.
As for him being "slightly racist" like the rest of his generation,that's just too stupid and insulting to even comment on.

Look,if people want to like Fleming and his **** books,go right ahead,but don't try and make him out to be a better person than he was.

[1q2w3e4r]

Good one buddy. Say hi to him next time you see him for me. You obviously know him quite well. Why instead of starting arguements, don't you just leave the thread. Or better still, give examples of Fleming's text's where you feel he's racist.

[solitaire]

Originally posted by 1q2w3e4r
Good one buddy.  Say hi to him next time you see him for me.  You obviously know him quite well.  Why instead of starting arguements, don't you just leave the thread.  Or better still, give examples of Fleming's text's where you feel he's racist.

Even better still.why don't you give examples of why you feel Fleming is not a racist...."buddy".

[Carver]

Originally posted by solitaire
So let me get this straight....Fleming was'nt a racist because he lived in Jamaica (which was a british colony at the time) surrounded by "colored" people? That has got to be one of the dumbest things i've ever heard,with that logic,all of the white people in South Africa (and any other colony on the planet) just loved all the natives to pieces.
As for him being "slightly racist" like the rest of his generation,that's just too stupid and insulting to even comment on.

Look,if people want to like Fleming and his **** books,go right ahead,but don't try and make him out to be a better person than he was.

Look, I'm not saying Ian Fleming was the perfect man, not at all. I don't know much about him, but he can't be the ogre you make him out to be. His books aren't all that rubbish, as you say, when I read Thunderball, I vowed never to read a Fleming book again becuase it was so boring, but read LALD, if you want a thriller that is. Fleming wrote with zest and enthusiasm and amazing detail, I had to put the book down when I read about Tee Hee, snapping Bond's finger, aargh! Look, the era the Fleming lived in was a racist era, not many people had lived with coloured people before, and were in no mood to be civil to them, Fleming included. Jamaica did have its natives there, and if Fleming was really really racist there were plenty of other places in the world where he could have gone which weren't inhabited by coloured people, so can't have been the biggest racist if he went to Jamaica. And it can't be ''too stupid to comment on'' I'd like you to comment on it rather than leave it at that becuase at the moment it looks as though you've can't think of a witty remark to that one I'm afraid;). As I said before, Fleming was no saint, but he wasn't the horrible person you made him out to be, and if you want to insult him, go ahead, just don't stoop to the level where you have to use petty swearing:rolleyes:. And for my ''coloured'' remark, going into this racist issue is a very delicate one, you can just slip in the odd word which may offend many people, and I'm trying my best not to offend people here by using the bad words, okay?

[1q2w3e4r]

Why? It doesn't bother me if Fleming was or wasn't a racist. The times have changed I couldn't really care less. I'd call him an elitest. And its real easy to give exampls of how someone ISNT a racist isn't it. Probably, by um. Not being racist. I stand by my origional thought of you as someone who's got nothing better to do than stir up trouble.
.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by solitaire
So let me get this straight....Fleming was'nt a racist because he lived in Jamaica (which was a british colony at the time) surrounded by "colored" people? That has got to be one of the dumbest things i've ever heard,with that logic,all of the white people in South Africa (and any other colony on the planet) just loved all the natives to pieces.
As for him being "slightly racist" like the rest of his generation,that's just too stupid and insulting to even comment on.

Look,if people want to like Fleming and his **** books,go right ahead,but don't try and make him out to be a better person than he was.

solitaire, you're crusading, banging the PC drum and spoiling for a fight. Not for the first time. I know this because of your angry, argumentative tone and your frequent recourse to foul language, with absolutely no apparent politeness towards other members, or respect for anyone else's counterarguments, which you tend to dismiss contemptuously. If you want to discuss whether Fleming was a racist, you could do so much more civilly. If you did, I'm sure you wouldn't get the sort of responses you do, although, who knows, it may be that you thrive on this kind of banter.

I remind you that we are discussing someone who is no longer alive to defend himself against abuse.

I stand by my point that Fleming wasn't a racist because he lived in Jamaica. It's got nothing to do with the British Empire, which had long been in its death throes (Jamaica became independent in 1962). Had he been a racist, there is no way that he would have lived among blacks. He was wealthy enough to live anywhere he pleased and could have chosen to surround himself entirely with whites in a predominantly white country. If the State of Israel had existed before his death, do you think Hitler would have wanted even to visit, let alone live there?

Listen, I have had the misfortune to meet racists. Real racists, who would never want to leave England under any circumstances, who would never eat any kind of "foreign food". Fleming a Nazi? Puh-lease!

I'm angry, solitaire, because this is serious. Have you heard of libel? It's so easy for us anonymous Internet posters to write whatever we please about people without having to fear consequences, but if you're determined to portray Fleming (or anyone else) as a sjambok (spelling?)-wielding, native-beating racist and colonialist, please ensure that you have research and concrete examples with which to back your views.

[solitaire]

I never said Fleming was an "ogre",I said he was a racist idiot,typical of that time as well as now. Like I said living in Jamaica was'nt out of love for black people,it was part of the empire. You're right about one thing though,I could'nt think of anything witty to say to the "slightly racist" comment. I was to stunned by it's stupidity,are you seriously saying it was okay to be racist because of the time period? people wer'nt used to living with colored people? How do you think black people ended up in the americas (I seem to recall something about the slave trade,which went on for centuries)

Fleming was'nt a monster,as there were and are a lot worse offenders on the racist scale,but his views,persona,and way of life are intolerable to me.

[Carver]

Originally posted by 1q2w3e4r
I stand by my origional thought of you as someone who's got nothing better to do than stir up trouble.

Who me? Well, either way, I'm with you on this 1q2w3e4r, and I'm not bothered at all if Fleming was racist or not, the only thing I'm bothered about is Solitaire making remarks about Fleming without things to back them up wih:rolleyes:

[Carver]

Well put Loomis, this is kinda getting serious now. Solitaire, you can't make accusations against Fleming without evidence o back them up, and how can you say he's racist them as well as now? he isn't even alive! And I'm not saying it was ok to be racist then, but it was the only way of like, people knew no different.