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The Daily Beast: "Literary Bond Superior to Movie Version"


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#1 Revelator

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:41 AM

Besides being one of the best Bond films since OHMSS, Skyfall has also occasioned several articles on literary Bond. The following piece was written for the online magazine The Daily Beast. Its author, Allen Barra, divides his time between writing about sports and cultural criticism. There's not much that's new here, and Barra unfortunately makes several noticeable errors and relies on a few bits of dubious information (the John Dee theory for the 007 codename for example, which has been debunked by Jeremy Duns--perhaps someone should set up a Fleming's Bond FAQ to dispel such myths!), but it's good to see Fleming get more kudos.


Literary Bond Superior to Movie Version

Nov 11, 2012 4:45 AM EST

Compare Ian Fleming’s fictional creation in his novels to what we see on the screen and the differences start piling up. It's the books, not the films, that should be the standard Bond, writes Allen Barra.

They stand together in a dusty corner of my father’s old bookcase, scratched and battered but still serviceable, as much a part of a boy’s coming of age in the 1960s as Beatle records and old copies of Playboy in which many of the Bond novels first made their way to junior-high-school-aged males. The Signet paperbacks—I don’t think I’ve ever seen a hardcover of one of Ian Fleming’s James Bond books—still conjure up images of adventures in exotic locales, Istanbul and the French Riviera, Japan and Jamaica.

With the release of Skyfall, 2012 is being hailed as the 50th anniversary of James Bond—the first film, Dr. No, was released in the U.K. in 1962—but those of us who spent our pubescent years huddled under blankets reading Bond know he is older than that. The first Bond was more sober and serious than the sly and sometimes salacious super-agent first played by Sean Connery. Connery, of course, was the perfect movie Bond, or at least until Daniel Craig took the role six years ago in Casino Royale. But Connery was not the Bond of Ian Fleming’s books; Craig, though he is terrific, isn’t either. But a man who rides motorcycles across rooftops and jumps 50 feet onto a moving train is the creation of the movies.

In the wake of Bondmania in the 1960s came a backlash of stories complaining that Bond wasn’t a realistic spy. Who cared? We knew that Bond wasn’t a spy or even a secret agent. (And how secret could an agent be who was given an obit in the London Times as Bond was after his apparent death in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service?) He was, true to his and his author’s World War II commando origins, a killer, a trained assassin; a killer of spies. That’s what “007”and “license to kill” meant.

Where did that 007 come from? There are three excellent theories. Fleming’s best biographer, Andrew Lycett, in Ian Fleming, The Man Behind James Bond (1995), offers convincing evidence that “Bond’s code number was based on Ian’s knowledge of NID’s triumph in the First World War: 0070 was the German diplomatic code used to send the Zimmerman telegram”—the 1917 German plan for Mexico to attack the U.S.—“from Berlin to Washington.”

Another story connects to Elizabeth I’s spy, John Dee (the first agent of Her Majesty’s Service) who signed his reports on Spanish activities not with his name but with “007.” Dee’s choice of numbers has never been explained. Still another explanation comes from Rudyard Kipling’s story about the talking train that carried Westerners into the India of the British Empire. Kipling’s story is named for the train’s number: 007.

As for his name, surely the blandest for a world-famous fictional character, it derived not, as is popularly thought, from the author of Field Guide to Birds of the West Indies. When he began writing, Fleming told a friend at a government ministry how he was choosing names for his books: “I think of the first couple of names in my house at school and change their Christian names.” The friend suggested he use the names of acquaintances James Aitken and Harry Bond. Fleming made the right choice: No actor could find heat in “Aitken … Harry Aitken.”

Clues for Bond’s literary origins come from his enemies. In From Russia With Love, the semi-fictitious Russian murder executive arm SMERSH has a dossier on Bond. According to General Vozdvishenski, the bedrock of British intelligence “is perhaps the public school and university tradition. The love of adventure …most of their strength lies in the myth—in the myth of Scotland Yard, of Sherlock Holmes, of the Secret Service. We certainly have nothing to fear from these gentlemen.” But James Bond was no English gentleman—he wasn’t even English. His father was a Scot, and his mother Swiss—though in a last interview Fleming revealed that Bond’s mother, too, was Scottish.

Bond’s parents, it is revealed in You Only Live Twice, were killed in a climbing accident. Being an orphan and having attended school on the charity of family friends gave the early Bond an edge that was never exploited in the films till Casino Royale. He was educated, like Fleming, at Eton, but unlike his creator, he was no snob. Bond’s conceit extends no further than taking an immediate dislike to a fellow who uses “a Windsor knot. Bond mistrusted anyone who tied his tie with a Windsor knot. It … was of the mark of a cad.” (His instincts turn out to be correct. The Windsor-knotted man in From Russia With Love is revealed as the anti-Bond, SMERSH killer Donovan Grant.)

Bond’s pretensions also don’t encompass class mobility. In the last novel, The Man With the Golden Gun (1965), Bond refuses knighthood from the British crown: he is “merely a Scottish peasant … I just refuse to call myself Sir James Bond. I would laugh at myself every time I looked in the mirror to shave.” Another Scottish peasant, Sir Sean Connery, had no such qualms.

His epicurean affectations were created by screenwriters. Bond was partial to relatively simple dishes such as grilled sole and cold roast beef with potato salad. In the first book, Casino Royale (1953), he does confess, “I take ridiculous pleasure in what I eat and drink,” but rationalizes that “It comes partly from being a bachelor.” As for women, Bond was no lothario. He just couldn’t land the right girl before she got killed (like Vesper Lynd in Casino Royale) or deserted him (Tiffany Case in Diamonds Are Forever leaves him for an American Marine officer).

Bond dismisses one former love as “Fine girl, but she’s a bit neurotic.” His boss, M, harrumphs, “Perhaps it’s for the best. Doesn’t do to get mixed up with neurotic women in this business. They hang on your gun arm, if you know what I mean.” We know what he means.

What does Bond look like? Not like anyone who played him in the movies. Fleming left descriptions of Bond to enemies and lovers. Vesper in Casino Royale gazes at a photograph of Bond and finds, “He is very good-looking. He reminds me rather of Hoagy Carmichael, but there is something cold and ruthless …” The Carmichael connection is mentioned several times; Fleming was probably inspired by remarks that he himself resembled the great American songwriter. Hoagy was somewhat good-looking but far from movie-star handsome.

This came as a relief to Bond. When Tatiana Romanova in From Russia With Love tells him, “You are like an American film star,” she is startled by his reaction: “For God’s sake! That’s the worst insult you can pay a man!” Bond, however, was not entirely pleased with the Carmichael comparison, either. He looks in a mirror and sees, “His grey-blue eyes looked calmly back with a hint of ironical inquiry and the short lock of black hair which would never stay in place slowly subsided to form a thick comma above his right eyebrow. With the thin, vertical scar down his right cheek, the general effect was faintly piratical. Not much of Hoagy Carmichael there, thought Bond … ”

Surprising as it now seems to us, Fleming saw an entirely different Bond when it came time to choose his screen embodiment. He favored David Niven (who, after all, had real-life commando training) and also considered Roger Moore (then popular on TV as The Saint). He did not like Sean Connery, who, Fleming thought, did [not?] look as if he cared about Bond’s school ties and club affiliations. Fleming changed his mind when his secretary told him Connery “had something.”

The man who never lost a fight in the movies was, in his literary incarnation, not physically imposing. SMERSH estimated his height at “183 centimeters, weight 76 kilograms, slim build.” Or six feet and 168 pounds. Fleming’s Bond is no superman, though the Russians thought him an “all-round athlete, expert pistol shot, boxer, knife-thrower… knows the basic holds of judo. In general, fights with tenacity and has a high tolerance of pain.” Lucky for him, because in all the 1950s books he is tortured by people who mean business, not supervillains like in the movies who want to explain their plans and show him their erector-set operations with inexplicably obvious self-destruct buttons.

This is because they are Communists. The grim visage of Cold War is never far from Bond’s mind in any of the early books. Casino Royale’s le Chiffre, Auric Goldfinger, the hideous and asexual Rosa Kleb in From Russia With Love, Mr. Big, the fierce African-American crime boss in Live and Let Die, were all Communist agents—vermin eating at the vitals of the free world.

A thaw came in 1962 when the film script for From Russia With Love was revised to turn the villains into agents of SPECTRE—an anagram for Special Executive for Counter Intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge, and Extortion—a supercriminal organization that Bond needed hugely expensive gimmicks and gadgets to combat. In the books Bond’s constant lament is that other secret services have bigger budgets than Her Majesty’s. In From Russia With Love, he laments, while comparing his armory to the Russians, “If only his service went in for these explosive toys.” In Dr. No (1957), he envies the excellence of the CIA’s equipment and has no qualms about borrowing from us. In Live and Let Die (1954) the CIA makes him a gift of a couple thousands dollars in cash upon his arrival in New York. He thanks his allies and tells them, “I’m glad to have some working capital.”

Like all great English adventure heroes, his primary weapons are his wits and nerve and willingness to kill in the line of duty. He has no illusions about the status of his numerical designation. “It’s not difficult to get a Double-O number,” he tells one lover, “if you’re prepared to kill people. That’s all the meaning it has and it’s nothing to be particularly proud of … it’s one’s profession, one does what one’s told. How do you like the grated egg with your caviar?”

In The Man Who Saved Britain (2006), Simon Winder argued that Fleming’s novels would fade, regarded at best mere addendums to the Bond films. I would maintain the opposite. Outside of the first few Connery films and a handful of others since then, most of the Bond movies have been a waste of time. The books, on the other hand, have attracted perhaps the smartest readership of any genre writer since Raymond Chandler. Chandler, in fact, was one of Fleming’s biggest boosters, along with Kingsley Amis (who wrote a fun little book, The James Bond Dossier, and a Bond novel himself), Anthony Burgess (who wrote an introduction to a British edition of the Bond paperbacks), Cyril Connelly [sic] (author of perhaps the best parody of Fleming, “Bond Strikes Camp”), Christopher Isherwood, Elizabeth Bowen, and even John F. Kennedy, who, in a 1961 edition of Life magazine named From Russia With Love one of his 10 favorite books, along with Stendhal’s Scarlet and Black. Fleming was particularly proud of Kennedy’s endorsement; he probably died without knowing that another fan, Lee Harvey Oswald, had checked his works out of a New Orleans public library.

Fleming’s Bond is an avatar of a time still strongly felt if only dimly remembered. The Cold War may be dated, but so is the Victorian London of Sherlock Holmes and Philip Marlowe’s pre-boom Los Angeles. There will always be room in the fictional pantheon for someone willing to die in the service of his country. And when you do what you’re told as well as Ian Fleming’s Bond, you shouldn’t be begrudged a little grated egg with your caviar.


Edited by Revelator, 15 November 2012 - 06:55 PM.


#2 archer1949

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:48 AM

Excellent article. I do hope that Skyfall, with it's unprecedented thematic attention to Bond's backstory, will get more people interested in the literary Bond.

#3 Major Tallon

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:37 AM

In the main, a lovely piece. I rank the films higher than Barra, but his appreciation of Fleming's work is most welcome.

#4 Revelator

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

[Post moved]

Edited by Revelator, 16 November 2012 - 06:01 PM.


#5 TheREAL008

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:50 AM

Although I see the books and the films as two seperate entities, this does give me food for thought.

#6 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:32 AM

It´s rather pointless IMO. The author of this article does not like most of the films so he prefers the books.

What he neglects to think about is that books and films are two very different mediums.

And you can like both for what they are.

Nothing is superior. That´s just pseudo-intellectual wanking.

#7 MkB

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:49 AM

That´s just pseudo-intellectual wanking.


I rather agree with that. This thought is always nagging me when critics sneer at the Bond films (particularly the older ones) while praising the literary Bond as "the real thing". In most cases, I suspect that it's only because it sounds more high-brow. But let's face it: it's the film Bond who is the real star, without the Bond films there would not be 1% of the Bond fans there are today.
And I'll probably be given Hell for that, but as enjoyable and interesting as they are, the Fleming novels are not the epitome of literature - not even the epitome of the spy genre. There is no reason to idolize them.

#8 superado

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:03 AM


That´s just pseudo-intellectual wanking.


I rather agree with that. This thought is always nagging me when critics sneer at the Bond films (particularly the older ones) while praising the literary Bond as "the real thing". In most cases, I suspect that it's only because it sounds more high-brow. But let's face it: it's the film Bond who is the real star, without the Bond films there would not be 1% of the Bond fans there are today.
And I'll probably be given Hell for that, but as enjoyable and interesting as they are, the Fleming novels are not the epitome of literature - not even the epitome of the spy genre. There is no reason to idolize them.


I for one do not think that Fleming's books are high-brow literature, since I don't have the finer aptitude to appreciate or know what that is, nor do I think they're the epitome of spy literature since I haven't read enough authors of this genre to judge, and yes, without the movies there in the first place it's unlikely I would know anything about the literary Bond...but reading it brings me to my happy place. I do not need to contrast or vilify one thing in order to appreciate something else. What I do think is sad are Bond fans who stop short of going beyond the movies to explore the root of the character, which began life as an extention of the extraordinary life of its creator. Now, however, placing these thoughts into context of the newest Bond movie I do find it interesting how many Bond fans suddenly feel vindicated that the literary Bond "finally" took on flesh and blood in the form of Daniel Craig, evidenced by his gritty performance sans the silly trappings of the Bond interpretations before him. Sure, admittedly I am someone who holds Fleming's Bond on a pedestal, but let's be fair and recognize something for what it really is, or what it is not...and is Daniel Craig Fleming's Bond? No.

"That´s just pseudo-intellectual wanking."


I don't think that's a fair summary of what this article is all about. It certainly has more substance than the typically shallow magazine or newspaper write-up for a newly released Bond movie that will mention an assassin named OddJob, a submarine car and Bond's ill-fated attempt at marriage. Whether there are gaps or errors, it's an article that attempts to offer a different angle to the Bond story and offer some perspective about the character as a product of his times. Articles like these are not targeted for academics in a way that presents different aspects and views of an issue. Instead, in consideration of a wider readership it makes sense immediately begin with a premise ("Literary Bond Superior to Movie Version") and then unpack the reasons why.

Edited by superado, 19 November 2012 - 08:30 AM.


#9 Revelator

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

What he neglects to think about is that books and films are two very different mediums.


Yet no one ever brings that up when praising the better film adaptations of Fleming's novels, probably because books and films have a closer relationship than, say, paintings and films (when was the last time you ever saw a film adaptation of a painting?). I think it's sensible to regard most of the Bond films as mediocre and prefer the books for the most part.

I rather agree with that. This thought is always nagging me when critics sneer at the Bond films (particularly the older ones) while praising the literary Bond as "the real thing". In most cases, I suspect that it's only because it sounds more high-brow.


The older films? I had thought that most critics gave the earlier films (i.e., the ones closer to the books) a free pass. It's the later films--the ones that are pastiches of the older ones--that get stick.

But let's face it: it's the film Bond who is the real star, without the Bond films there would not be 1% of the Bond fans there are today.


No one's doubting that. They're just disappointed that the public image of Bond has become a gross parody of the literary one.

And I'll probably be given Hell for that, but as enjoyable and interesting as they are, the Fleming novels are not the epitome of literature - not even the epitome of the spy genre. There is no reason to idolize them.


I don't think anyone's "idolizing" the books--I think people are defending and praising Fleming because he's been trashed so often and because the films have overshadowed their sources. The epitome of literature is Shakespeare, but even he was writing entertainment at the time. Ditto for the Sherlock Holmes stories. And what would be the epitome of the spy genre anyway? LeCarre? He's idolized enough already and Fleming was clearly writing a different sort of spy novel, one that he was a master of, and he should be celebrated for that. So I really couldn't care less for who is and who isn't an epitome.

#10 Miles Miservy

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:45 PM

I can think of only 3 films that remained loyal to Fleming's pages; Dr No, FRWL & OHMSS. The rest of his works have been stripped away and used in bits & pieces in other films:

FYEO consists of 2 short stories; RISICO & the title of the same name.
There are parts of the book LALD in LTK.
The synopsis of OP was summed up be Roger Moore in a just a couple of lines.
The entire Novella TLD was summed up in the pre-title sequence of that movie.

It would be interesting if Michael & Barbara were to go back to the ORIGINAL novels and produce shortened teleplays just as Fleming wrote the books. (NOT AT ALL LIKE THAT 1954 CLIMAX THEATER ABOMINTION..... LORD NO) But done right, with a substantial budget. Television shows and mini series are utilized from best seller books and periods of history all the time; PILLARS OF THE EARTH, TITANIC, GAME OF THRONES, BOARDWALK EMPIRE, MAD MEN...... all of these are GRIPPING period pieces with a significant following.

I would LOVE it if MGM were to utilize just the Fleming books just for television. How cool would it be to actually envision Shatterhand's garden or Goldfinger's actual gold heist? I mean something complete & separate from the MGM films.

#11 MkB

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:15 AM

The older films? I had thought that most critics gave the earlier films (i.e., the ones closer to the books) a free pass. It's the later films--the ones that are pastiches of the older ones--that get stick.


I was actually alluding to the Moore-era films, mostly - without feeling the need to name names, but since you ask... :)

I don't think anyone's "idolizing" the books--I think people are defending and praising Fleming because he's been trashed so often and because the films have overshadowed their sources. The epitome of literature is Shakespeare, but even he was writing entertainment at the time. Ditto for the Sherlock Holmes stories. And what would be the epitome of the spy genre anyway? LeCarre? He's idolized enough already and Fleming was clearly writing a different sort of spy novel, one that he was a master of, and he should be celebrated for that. So I really couldn't care less for who is and who isn't an epitome.


Well, if you ask me, the Sherlock Holmes story are just like the Fleming novels: entertaining, but not landmarks of literature. Yet, they undoubtedly are landmarks of popular culture. And nobody ever said that literature had to be boring, btw.
My point is that for me a Bond film is not necessarily better because it's going back to the literary roots of the character. Many of the elements that endeared Bond to generations of fans are absent from or marginal in the novels. Without the liberties taken by the film producers, Bond would not be the popular icon he is now.

#12 Revelator

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:04 AM

I was actually alluding to the Moore-era films, mostly - without feeling the need to name names, but since you ask...


Since the Moore films are mostly pastiches of earlier Bond films, perhaps critics were right to deride many of them as ersatz.

Well, if you ask me, the Sherlock Holmes story are just like the Fleming novels: entertaining, but not landmarks of literature.


But what exactly is a landmark of literature? You've never made that clear. And I think the Holmes stories are regarded as landmarks of literature by most people interested in the subject. Yes, literature certainly doesn't have to boring--what's more, a lot of it started off as "popular" culture in the first place--hence Dumas, Jules Verne, etc.

My point is that for me a Bond film is not necessarily better because it's going back to the literary roots of the character. Many of the elements that endeared Bond to generations of fans are absent from or marginal in the novels.


And most of those elements were present in the books, and it's no accident that the three Bond films that put the character on the map were all relatively close adaptations of the books. A Bond film is not necessarily better because it's going back to the literary roots of the character--but so far the films that have gone that route have been artistic successes, perhaps because they have more to work with than an original screenplay.

Without the liberties taken by the film producers, Bond would not be the popular icon he is now.


And with too many liberties the character would have turned into a curdled self-parody. Fleming is what the film producers turn to in order to stabilize and right the character, as in the cases of OHMSS, FYEO, and CR. Without Fleming there's nothing for the films to do but feed off of themselves (and descend into self-parody) or feed off of other movies in a rather unsubtle manner.

#13 MkB

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

Since the Moore films are mostly pastiches of earlier Bond films, perhaps critics were right to deride many of them as ersatz.


Fair enough :)

But what exactly is a landmark of literature? You've never made that clear.


Others have: the shelves of university libraries are full of handbooks discussing the landmarks and canonical authors of English literature. That's what I am referring to - even though as a reader I do not necessarily agree with those lists, mind you.

And I think the Holmes stories are regarded as landmarks of literature by most people interested in the subject. Yes, literature certainly doesn't have to boring--what's more, a lot of it started off as "popular" culture in the first place--hence Dumas, Jules Verne, etc.


Certainly! About the particular case of Holmes - and again, I have read and enjoyed the Conan Doyle books - in my world people do not regard them as landmarks of literature, as entertaining and culturally important as they are. "Landmarks of literarure" are not so much about the stories themselves and their second life in popular culture, it is all about the quality and originality of the style. For instance Dickens is certainly in the same league as Conan Doyle in some respects: both published their serialized stories in newspapers or magazines, for a popular audience, in an entertaining and lively form. Yet, Dickens is considered canonical, and Conan Doyle is not.

And most of those elements were present in the books, and it's no accident that the three Bond films that put the character on the map were all relatively close adaptations of the books.



It all depends on how you look at it, from your personal history as a fan, I suppose. Even Bond's personality is quite different from the novels to (most of) the films, I would say - even the Connery ones.


A Bond film is not necessarily better because it's going back to the literary roots of the character--but so far the films that have gone that route have been artistic successes, perhaps because they have more to work with than an original screenplay.


Perhaps it tells more about the quality of screenplays than the quality of the novels? ;) Again, different fans may have different views about this. Films that were not based on Fleming material have been artistic successes too, don't you think?
But I do see your point: having to take into account the universe created by a long series of novels probably forces the screenwriters to be more careful about their work.

And with too many liberties the character would have turned into a curdled self-parody. Fleming is what the film producers turn to in order to stabilize and right the character, as in the cases of OHMSS, FYEO, and CR. Without Fleming there's nothing for the films to do but feed off of themselves (and descend into self-parody) or feed off of other movies in a rather unsubtle manner.


Maybe, but don't you think that's a bit harsh? The films have a 50-year old history, of course they have fed off other films, even in the early days (would Connery have worn a withe dinner jacket in Goldfinger if Bogart had not worn one in Casablanca?), but they have also developed practically as a genre of their own, feeding many more other films themselves. There is also a lot of original creation put into the films, with respect to the Fleming material - even in Fleming-based films. There is the obvious visual aspect (would so many of us be Bond fans without the Ken Adam sets of old?), but let's not forget the take on the characters, their re-interpretation, their relationships, etc.

#14 superado

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:25 PM

Which is better boils down to orientation. On the Bond boards like this it seems that most of those having a preference for the films tend to be put off with reading the books for one reason or another (maybe with the actual act of reading). Others still, have been so ingrained with the cinematic ideal of a nearly superhuman, charmed, action-packed Bond even in his “gritty” incarnations in film so that the Bond portrayed in the books is comparatively mundane, i.e., boring.

Regardless of comparisons on all-time box office vs. copies sold, arguments that without the EON series there would be no wide awareness that the books enjoy today, that the Fleming books were not “the best” in its genre (not that the films were either, unless the genre is Action Blockbusters) or if they even qualify as excellent literature etc., etc., if one watched all the movies and actually read all the Fleming books and meaningfully, critically appraised and compared them to determine which best imparts the Bond story, saga, mythos, etc., the books would come out superior.

#15 glidrose

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:45 PM

Many of the elements that endeared Bond to generations of fans are absent from or marginal in the novels. Without the liberties taken by the film producers, Bond would not be the popular icon he is now.


Exactly. I've said before that the filmmakers explored and transcended the Bond mythos more fully than Fleming's books ever did.

#16 MkB

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:08 PM

the books would come out superior.


That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it... :)

#17 MkB

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:20 PM

Many of the elements that endeared Bond to generations of fans are absent from or marginal in the novels. Without the liberties taken by the film producers, Bond would not be the popular icon he is now.


Exactly. I've said before that the filmmakers explored and transcended the Bond mythos more fully than Fleming's books ever did.


BTW, it is interesting to note that the last Fleming novels incorporated the Film-Bond mythos in a way. If memory serves, Ursula Andress is mentioned in the OHMSS novel as a direct nod to her iconic performance in the Dr. NO film, and Fleming is said to have given Bond Scottish ancestry in his YOLT obituary as an homage to Connery's performance as Film-Bond.
Not far from the "chicken or the egg?" causality dilemma :D

#18 Revelator

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

Others have: the shelves of university libraries are full of handbooks discussing the landmarks and canonical authors of English literature. That's what I am referring to - even though as a reader I do not necessarily agree with those lists, mind you.


But those lists don't necessarily agree with each other in the first place. No canon is set in stone, and there are no universally agreed criteria for what makes great literature. The critical reputations of authors rise and drop perpetually, and authors are continually added to the canon over time. We're living in a time where the lines between pop culture and high culture are starting to erode. The Library of America series is now publishing Raymond Chandler and Lovecraft after all...

Certainly! About the particular case of Holmes - and again, I have read and enjoyed the Conan Doyle books - in my world people do not regard them as landmarks of literature, as entertaining and culturally important as they are.


But I think the larger world of critics, writers, and historians does regard Holmes as literature. I actually don't think there's much debate on that point in the literary world.

It all depends on how you look at it, from your personal history as a fan, I suppose. Even Bond's personality is quite different from the novels to (most of) the films, I would say - even the Connery ones.


I think that if you compare the first three (or four) Bond films to, say, the films of DAF, LALD, TMWTGG, or MR, than it should be clear that the first three are far more faithful adaptations.

Perhaps it tells more about the quality of screenplays than the quality of the novels?


Well, two of the absolute best Bond films, GF and OHMSS, were not only faithful to their sources but even better than them--and that was because they built on their sources rather than putting them aside.

Films that were not based on Fleming material have been artistic successes too, don't you think?


Which ones? I think TSWLM is an artistic success, but that's because it's a greatest hits anthology from the past Bond films.

but they have also developed practically as a genre of their own, feeding many more other films themselves.


But it's a very small and in-bred genre. The generic Bond film tends to be a replication of the elements and formula perfected in Goldfinger, followed by You Only Live Twice, which was basically a self-parody of the first four films.
A James Bond film is a very recognizable entity, and if you set out to write one, your model is the past Bond films. But if you keep following those you end up repeating them, and if you stray too far the film is no longer Bondian. Going back to Fleming allows the filmmakers more latitude, since material from the books is automatically Bondian and often takes a less traveled path than film formula.

There is also a lot of original creation put into the films, with respect to the Fleming material - even in Fleming-based films. There is the obvious visual aspect (would so many of us be Bond fans without the Ken Adam sets of old?)


Sure, but Bond has managed to survive without Ken Adam. The Bond films initially succeeded because they assembled an extremely talented team (Young, Hunt, Barry, Binder, Adam, Connery, etc.) to adapt the books. Without that team or the source material, nothing would have happened. That team is gone, but Bond--as demonstrated by Craig's first and third films--is still drawing strength from Fleming.

BTW, it is interesting to note that the last Fleming novels incorporated the Film-Bond mythos in a way. If memory serves, Ursula Andress is mentioned in the OHMSS novel as a direct nod to her iconic performance in the Dr. NO film, and Fleming is said to have given Bond Scottish ancestry in his YOLT obituary as an homage to Connery's performance as Film-Bond. Not far from the "chicken or the egg?" causality dilemma


Not really. Neither of those examples point to any profound influence on the actual books. I don't think the films of Dr. No or FRWL had any demonstrable influence on the plot, characters, themes, locations, or basic essence of the books of OHMSS, YOLT, or TMWTGG. I think some have pointed to Bond's increased sense of humor, but Bond was already becoming more humorous in the book of GF. The Andress reference is cute but trivial, and Fleming himself was a Scot. Perhaps Connery's example allowed Fleming to feel more open about making Bond Scottish, but beyond that the influence from the films stops there.

Exactly. I've said before that the filmmakers explored and transcended the Bond mythos more fully than Fleming's books ever did.


You must give me the name of your oculist.

Edited by Revelator, 26 November 2012 - 08:02 PM.


#19 The Gunner

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:01 PM

Many of the elements that endeared Bond to generations of fans are absent from or marginal in the novels. Without the liberties taken by the film producers, Bond would not be the popular icon he is now.


Exactly. I've said before that the filmmakers explored and transcended the Bond mythos more fully than Fleming's books ever did.


Don't agree - although there are many Flemingesque elements to the films (especially TMWTGG) that don't actually come from the pages of Fleming's James Bond novels per se.

#20 MkB

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:29 AM

Revelator, there are too many "But"s in your answer for me to expect that we will finally fall in total agreement... but it certainly is an interesting conversation!

But those lists don't necessarily agree with each other in the first place. No canon is set in stone, and there are no universally agreed criteria for what makes great literature.


Those lists have one thing in common: Fleming's not one of their items ;) I am sorry, that's just a fact. It does not prevent the books from being fascinating objects of entertainment, or even of scholarly study. You are probably aware that there is a long list of scholarly works dedicated to the Bond universes, some focusing particularly on the Fleming body of work. One of the very first was a collection of essays collected and edited by the Umberto Eco, renowned semiologist before he became a famous novelist.

The critical reputations of authors rise and drop perpetually, and authors are continually added to the canon over time. We're living in a time where the lines between pop culture and high culture are starting to erode. The Library of America series is now publishing Raymond Chandler and Lovecraft after all...


I'll spin in my grave the day they edit Raymond Benson...

But I think the larger world of critics, writers, and historians does regard Holmes as literature. I actually don't think there's much debate on that point in the literary world.


Of course I agree the Holmes novels are literature. Not unforgettable from the strict literary criticism standpoint, that's all :)

I think that if you compare the first three (or four) Bond films to, say, the films of DAF, LALD, TMWTGG, or MR, than it should be clear that the first three are far more faithful adaptations.


Dear Revelator, I have to confess... despite my advocacy of the films vs. Fleming in this thread, I am much more familiar with the Fleming novels than the films, and I would like to explain this apparent paradox.
I have grown up watching Bond films on TV with family, I wanted to be a secret agent like Bond when I was a little kid because I had seen the films on TV, and it is what makes me fond of Bond. A mix of nostalgia for childhood and the possibilities of other lives, the particular sort of escapism you can toy with as a child, when you are not quite sure yet what are the boundaries of life - yours, at least. I can tell you that I would not be a Bond fan at all if I had not been exposed to the film-Bond myth in my early years, and it is only because I have a soft spot for this myth that I have got interested in the Fleming novels, which I read some years ago. But I watch the films very, very rarely. I love them not as individual works of art, but as a whole, a universe that I go back to like one returns to the family holiday house of yore. I certainly do not have the same relationship with the books that I discovered as a 30-yr old. I found them extremely interesting, in many respects, but they cannot have the same status as the films for me, they are not, how to put that? "endearing", maybe.

Which ones? I think TSWLM is an artistic success, but that's because it's a greatest hits anthology from the past Bond films.


I suspect that you will disagree again, but I do think GE is an artistic sucess.

Not really. Neither of those examples point to any profound influence on the actual books. I don't think the films of Dr. No or FRWL had any demonstrable influence on the plot, characters, themes, locations, or basic essence of the books of OHMSS, YOLT, or TMWTGG. I think some have pointed to Bond's increased sense of humor, but Bond was already becoming more humorous in the book of GF. The Andress reference is cute but trivial, and Fleming himself was a Scot. Perhaps Connery's example allowed Fleming to feel more open about making Bond Scottish, but beyond that the influence from the films stops there.


Spoilsport! :P