52 replies to this topic

[Morgan]

A thought just occurred to me that in SF Bond actually fails the whole mission where as Silva succeeds in his quest to break MI6 and have M killed.

Bond tasked to recover hard drive - Fail
Bond tasked with capturing Silva - Fail as Silva allows the capture.
Bond tasked with protecting M - Fail
Silva wants to break MI6 and kill M - Success

So the bad guy actually wins in this one, a first for a Bond film. Way to shake things up Mr. Mendes.

[delfloria]

Yes, you are correct. As 007 once said...................... "you can't win them all".

[AMC Hornet]

Keeping Le Chiffre's principals from recovering the $100m he lost over the Skyfleet puts: fail.

Okay, that was because MI6 trusted Vesper, but then, not recovering the hard drive from Patrice was hardly Bond's fault either, nor could anyone have anticipated that Silva wanted to be brought to London.

Ultimately, Bond did put an end to Silva's reign of terror, and M died with her dignity and honour intact (Silva: fail).

[Hockey Mask]

Craig's batting avg isn't quite as good as the others now is it?

[Glockenspiel]

A thought just occurred to me that in SF Bond actually fails the whole mission where as Silva succeeds in his quest to break MI6 and have M killed.

Bond tasked to recover hard drive - Fail
Bond tasked with capturing Silva - Fail as Silva allows the capture.
Bond tasked with protecting M - Fail
Silva wants to break MI6 and kill M - Success

So the bad guy actually wins in this one, a first for a Bond film. Way to shake things up Mr. Mendes.

"Bond tasked to recover hard drive - Fail" : that's what I thought first, but when I saw the movie for the second time, I realized the hard drive was probably on the island where Silva is captured, so I suppose they recover it.
They don't speak of this hard drive after the arrest of Silva.

Edited by Glockenspiel, 14 November 2012 - 11:55 PM.

[AMC Hornet]

BTW, we also have Silva to thank for having a new M back in the old office.

Much obliged, you peroxide-headed, bisexual, Oedipal loon, you.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Not sure:

1) He couldn't actually kill M (she died by her previous wound)
2) He couldn't watch her as she dies (he died almost 5 minutes before M).

[plankattack]

Bond whisks M away to Skyfall in order to keep her safe and lure Silva in.

Silva dies (mission accomplished), but M dies (mission failed) so Bond goes one for two.

House blows up (he never liked it so that's a wash) but DB5 battered out of existence (can't believe that's not a personal failure!)

Also, Mods, should we "spoilering up" in this thread?

[JimmyBond]

Just a heads up, all spoiler fillled topics go in the spoiler forum. That's where this one is going.

[tdalton]

Also, Mods, should we "spoilering up" in this thread?

Yes.

[Guy Haines]

Dare I say it? This Bond's most successful mission may have been the much reviled QoS. Consider:-

CR - Le Chiffre dead rather than turned. HM Treasury monies lost. Vesper revealed as a double. But at least Mr White is tracked down.

QoS - Unfortunately, and in spite of his injuries, White escapes. On the other hand, he has to sit through a performance of Tosca during which his colleagues (superiors?) are hopelessly blown. Should have kept their nerve instead of walking out of the show at half time! Plus, Yusef Kabira's honeytrap racket is finished. It will be interesting to see if Quantum re-groups in the next movie or two. And if it is still called "Quantum", if you catch my drift!

SF - MI6 security completely blown. Agents hopelessly compromised. The thief of the computer disk dead. Two major terrorist incidents in London. The villain having planned his capture and assassination attempt, and MI6 obligingly, if unwittingly going along with it. That said, Silva didn't achieve his personal objective. The "foiled again" look on his face when Bond finishes him off says it all. But, if the idea was to secure M, well, we know the rest.

[SolidWaffle]

I think Bond and M's broader goal of not only stopping Silva but vindicating the role of MI6 succeeded. He even dispatched the villain in dramatic fashion with a one-liner to boot. The only part that failed is the most obvious.

Besides, if Bond won all the time it'd be boring in my opinion. In some of the best Bond films he has no idea what he's doing or what he's getting into, and only survives and accomplishes the mission by the skin of his teeth -- because that's what makes for good film.

[Matt_13]

Wasn't the whole point of the ending to lure Silva to Skyfall by using M as bait? The goal was to isolate Silva, get him away from technology, and kill him. I'd say that's mission accomplished. And I believe Bond did recover the hard drive. I assume after Silva was captured MI6 gathered up everything on Hashima, including the missing files. All in all, the only one who can be said to have failed anything is M during the beginning.

[The Shark]

It's a pyrrhic victory for Bond.

[Robertsmiller]

It's a pyrrhic victory for Bond.

I'd agree, and add that that's just the way most of the novels end up!

[Hockey Mask]

Wasn't the whole point of the ending to lure Silva to Skyfall by using M as bait? The goal was to isolate Silva, get him away from technology, and kill him. I'd say that's mission accomplished.

Nightcrawlers are a dime a dozen but unlike bait that you use when fishing it is harder to find a bucket of M's.

[MkB]

Wasn't the whole point of the ending to lure Silva to Skyfall by using M as bait? The goal was to isolate Silva, get him away from technology, and kill him. I'd say that's mission accomplished.

Still, tactically one fails to understand why M was required at Skyfall at all. Silva is supposed to come there only because Q left "breadcrumbs" to lead him to the fugitives. The breadcrumbs would have worked whether M was actually there or not, and Bond could have whisked her to a more secure place, instead of letting her in the middle of a predicted assault.

[Robertsmiller]

Yeah but its a James Bond story. I can see Bond doing this with Sir Miles Messervy. Whats the point of this BS? It's a fantastic movie/story/Bond adventure.

Plus Skyfall is the ultimate last stand. The point is any secure place in tech world wouldn't be secure. Skyfall is their last best chance.

Wasn't the whole point of the ending to lure Silva to Skyfall by using M as bait? The goal was to isolate Silva, get him away from technology, and kill him. I'd say that's mission accomplished.

Still, tactically one fails to understand why M was required at Skyfall at all. Silva is supposed to come there only because Q left "breadcrumbs" to lead him to the fugitives. The breadcrumbs would have worked whether M was actually there or not, and Bond could have whisked her to a more secure place, instead of letting her in the middle of a predicted assault.\

That would've been a boring ass ending.

Edited by Robertsmiller, 15 November 2012 - 04:51 AM.

[B5Erik]

Silva definitely got what he wanted, just not the way he wanted it.

He wanted M dead, and he wanted to die. He just wanted to kill M himself and he didn't want to be killed by Bond before he could see M die.

[Robertsmiller]

He didn't want to die. Think about how nuts he was, he didn't pre-plan that same bullet stuff. For most of the film he wanted to kill M. At the end he gets caught up in it and can't handle it. Remember he tries to shoot her in the back during the inquest. Not exactly same bullet stuff there.

Edited by Robertsmiller, 15 November 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[MkB]

Whats the point of this BS?

I am glad you asked!
The point of this bullshit is to have a fun and respectful discussion between fans on every possible detail. We do that a lot on this board, actually. Try it, you might even enjoy it!

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

BTW this is the first time Craig kills the main villain! remember...

a. Le Chiffre was shot by Mr White
b. Greene was shot by someone in White's organization

[Pussfeller]

True, although leaving Greene for dead is not very different from killing him. I didn't even remember that he was shot. I thought he died of dehydration or something. I guess if you want something to be memorable, you should show it, not relate it in conversation.

[Matt_13]

What does Pyrrhic mean?

[Vauxhall]

What does Pyrrhic mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

[Judo chop]

I bet Silva would say Bond won. He looks pretty mad when he realizes he's been stabbed in the back by MI6 (for the second time).

[Pussfeller]

The resolution of SF is pyrrhic only in a personal, emotional sense. In reality, MI6 gets off cheap. They eliminate a dangerous enemy at the cost of a director who was about to retire anyway, and they don't sustain any further damage to their operation or to the British public. (Some property-owner gets screwed, but he was presumably insured against helicopter attacks.) By changing the venue to Skyfall Lodge, Bond saves his employers a lot of money and bother. Also, Mawdsley's death is a boon to MI6: it redeems her legacy, corroborates her testimony at the inquiry, and cuts MI6 loose from any of her old political baggage. With the old lady demised, Clair Dowar has nothing on them. SF ends very well for MI6 as an organization, and Bond's basic loyalty is to MI6, so his mission must be judged successful.

[Shrublands]

Wasn't the whole point of the ending to lure Silva to Skyfall by using M as bait? The goal was to isolate Silva, get him away from technology, and kill him. I'd say that's mission accomplished.

Still, tactically one fails to understand why M was required at Skyfall at all. Silva is supposed to come there only because Q left "breadcrumbs" to lead him to the fugitives. The breadcrumbs would have worked whether M was actually there or not, and Bond could have whisked her to a more secure place, instead of letting her in the middle of a predicted assault.

Notice that a first wave of Silva’s men storm in first – Silva doesn’t make his entrance until they are certain M is there.
At least, that's arguably the case. Anyway, it works for me.

[MkB]

Wasn't the whole point of the ending to lure Silva to Skyfall by using M as bait? The goal was to isolate Silva, get him away from technology, and kill him. I'd say that's mission accomplished.

Still, tactically one fails to understand why M was required at Skyfall at all. Silva is supposed to come there only because Q left "breadcrumbs" to lead him to the fugitives. The breadcrumbs would have worked whether M was actually there or not, and Bond could have whisked her to a more secure place, instead of letting her in the middle of a predicted assault.

Notice that a first wave of Silva’s men storm in first – Silva doesn’t make his entrance until they are certain M is there.
At least, that's arguably the case. Anyway, it works for me.

I don't think Silva comes only when he's certain M is here. None of his men on the ground has been able to report about M's being there or not. The only one who actually saw her (briefly) was dead seconds after that. My take is that Silva wanted to make an entrance, indeed, and somehow expected his men on the ground to have already secured the compound, possibly holding M captive and Bond either captive or dead.

[Judo chop]

Wasn't the whole point of the ending to lure Silva to Skyfall by using M as bait? The goal was to isolate Silva, get him away from technology, and kill him. I'd say that's mission accomplished.

Still, tactically one fails to understand why M was required at Skyfall at all. Silva is supposed to come there only because Q left "breadcrumbs" to lead him to the fugitives. The breadcrumbs would have worked whether M was actually there or not, and Bond could have whisked her to a more secure place, instead of letting her in the middle of a predicted assault.

Notice that a first wave of Silva’s men storm in first – Silva doesn’t make his entrance until they are certain M is there.
At least, that's arguably the case. Anyway, it works for me.

I did notice that. I'm sure that we were meant to notice and to consider why a second wave would be necessary. There's obviously strategery going on. My first consideration was that the first wave was meant to give Bond and co. confidence that they had won, to lure them out to make easy targets, but that doesn't hold up very well as they'd have heard the chopper coming miles away. Your reason is better.

Edit:. As is MkB's.