79 replies to this topic

[MkB]

Of course, the cinematic Bond has always been more gallant and heroic than the literary version. Craig-Bond is the closest they've come to presenting him as truly messed up and morally dubious, rather than just "naughty".

Well... this would lead us into a discussion of the literary Bond, but I have always felt that the literary Bond cares much more about the women in his life than the cinematic one. He's serious about his relationships, often thinks of proposing (even actually does it), and he's dumped by his love interests rather than dumps them. More generally, he has a soft spot for the "bird with a wing down" and a protective instinct towards the underdog.
The literary Bond would not quip if a woman under the influence of the main Villain - who has just been his instrument to get at the said Villain - was just executd in a sick fashion before his eyes.

[Tony_OO_Black]

Yeah that was one of the few moments in Skyfall that didn't ring true, the flippancy he uses after Severine dies; despite the fact he was just another woman, I don't know if he'd quip quite like that.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

In my opinion Bond was heeding to the advice Q gave to his alternate self - never let them see you bleed.

[DamnCoffee]

I felt that was very out of place, too. Seeing it again though I guess it could be said that Bond is trying to come across like he's not that bothered by it. Just like the Silva molestation.

[Pussfeller]

The notion of a black-versus-grey morality seems to describe both the literary Bond and the current incarnation of the cinematic series. Bond is not exactly a paragon of virtue, but just look at who he's up against. This approach just strikes me as more honest and realistic. Would a boy scout go into such a dirty business?

(I'm speaking generally, of course. I haven't seen SF yet, and maybe these particular instances are out of character.)

[MkB]

I need to watch the scene again to form a final opinion.
The only explanation I can see is the one you point out ("never let them see you bleed"), and now I really hope there is some sort of link between the quip and the opportunity Bond seizes to put down the henchmen.
I really, really hope there's more to this than a Conneryesque homage to post-killing quips...

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

The notion of a black-versus-grey morality seems to describe both the literary Bond and the current incarnation of the cinematic series. Bond is not exactly a paragon of virtue, but just look at who he's up against. This approach just strikes me as more honest and realistic. Would a boy scout go into such a dirty business?

My thoughts exactly. And remember - "That's Smith & Wesson, and you've had your six".

[MkB]

My thoughts exactly. And remember - "That's Smith & Wesson, and you've had your six".

I beg to differ: Severine is Bond's ally, Pr Dent is an enemy who has just tried to kill him. There's a difference.

[Tony_OO_Black]

Just like the Silva molestation.

Did that creep the hell out of anyone else? I was very uncomfortable. Bardem did that brilliantly.

[TheManwiththeWaltherPPK]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I think we need to be careful regarding the comparisons to the literary Bond. All of those insights into the literary Bond's sensitivity and emotions come through Bond's internal monologue. He doesn't express them openly. To express such human weakness openly would be to put himself at a disadvantage. I think he is just trying to play mind games back with Silva.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

I beg to differ: Severine is Bond's ally, Pr Dent is an enemy who has just tried to kill him. There's a difference.

Bond does not kill Séverine, Silva does. With that quote I meant that even the cinematic Bond has been a coldblooded bastard since the day one. Just look how she trashed Tatiana around in FRWL, etc.

To express such human weakness openly would be to put himself at a disadvantage. I think he is just trying to play mind games back with Silva.

Bingo!

Edited by AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän, 27 October 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[MkB]

I beg to differ: Severine is Bond's ally, Pr Dent is an enemy who has just tried to kill him. There's a difference.

Bond does not kill Séverine, Silva does. With that quote I meant that even the cinematic Bond has been a coldblooded bastard since the day one. Just look how she trashed Tatiana around in FRWL, etc.

Yes, I agree, cinematic Bond is more of a bastard. That was my point: sometimes it is argued that a more bastardly Bond is truer to Fleming's creation, and really it's not. Literary Bond is a nicer bloke, in his own league, really.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

Literary Bond is a nicer bloke, in his own league, really.

If we're talking about Fleming's Bond, I respectfully disagree. But if we're talking of Deaver's milquetoast-limpwrist "Bond", then yes.
We've strayed quite far from the original topic, I'd apologise on my behalf.

Edited by AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän, 27 October 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[TheManwiththeWaltherPPK]

I beg to differ: Severine is Bond's ally, Pr Dent is an enemy who has just tried to kill him. There's a difference.

Bond does not kill Séverine, Silva does. With that quote I meant that even the cinematic Bond has been a coldblooded bastard since the day one. Just look how she trashed Tatiana around in FRWL, etc.

Yes, I agree, cinematic Bond is more of a bastard. That was my point: sometimes it is argued that a more bastardly Bond is truer to Fleming's creation, and really it's not. Literary Bond is a nicer bloke, in his own league, really.

I don't know about that. With cinematic Bond, to an extent, all we get is how he deals with things on the outside. We don't get to hear the internal monologue in his head, where Bond is conflicted about his job and the bad things it forces him to do. Don't forget the ending of Casino Royale (the novel), Bond seems to react pretty coldly to Vesper's betrayal. I don't think the Craig films have really established that he is a cold-hearted bastard, but rather someone whose coping mechanism for tragedy to act indifferent to it. Throughout QoS Bond professes that Vesper meant nothing to him and that his attention was fully on the job, but there are numerous small moments in the film that indicate that his professed indifference is only feinted. (stealing the photo of Vesper, getting drunk on the plane, the final scene)

[Pussfeller]

WaltherPPK, you're making some very savvy points. When Bond is facing the villain, he's putting on a show. This could explain why Bond might outwardly appear more callous and horrid than we know him to be. Just as the "first time" line isn't necessarily a candid disclosure of a lavender streak, his unflappability in the wake of somebody's murder doesn't necessarily mean he's a psychopath. It just means he's on.

[TheManwiththeWaltherPPK]

Precisely, Pussfeller. Another good example I just thought of, thanks to your username, is when Bond and Quarrel are interrogating the photographer at Pussfeller's bar in Dr. No (the novel). Outwardly, Bond is acting the part of a bastard - interrogating the girl while allowing Quarrel to exert "physical pressure" against her. Inside, we know from Bond's internal monologue that he hates doing it and that he found hurting the girl distressing.

Edited by TheManwiththeWaltherPPK, 27 October 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[sharpshooter]

I guess it could be said that Bond is trying to come across like he's not that bothered by it. Just like the Silva molestation.

I haven't seen the movie of course, and I'm skim reading posts here and there, but I would definitely agree with you. Bond uses humour as a shield.

Edited by sharpshooter, 28 October 2012 - 12:36 AM.

[Gothamite]

If I came on the forums and saw that thread title, I'd know what you were talking about instantly. Can't you change it to something vaguer for those who haven't seen it?

Some idiot on Facebook posted "SkyFall is one of the best Bond movies. I'm not going to spoil the ending, but it's very sad." and then couldn't understand why I said that that was a spoiler in itself. I correctly guessed the ending thanks to this buffoon.

Edited by Gothamite, 28 October 2012 - 12:51 AM.

[Guy Haines]

Just seen it again. I just had do. I cried a lot more, too.

• The DB5 reveal, and the Bond theme just made me SO proud to be a Bond fan.
• I was on and off during the climax. Just seeing M fire the gun, then get hit. (MIssed it the first time). She's such a proud woman, which makes it all the more tragic.
• The office scene at the end just made me cry with joy. Beautiful. That Bond theme build up was brilliant.

I was moved both by the final scene with M and Bond - and Kincade's old fashioned gesture of respect - and the scene much earlier when Mallory tells M that it's time to retire. Thomas Newman's music certainly underscored these scenes effectively. I was also impressed by the "Tennyson" scene - M's reply to the committee, cross cut with Bond's pursuit of Silva across London - and again, Newman's score contributed.

And yes, I liked the office scene. At the second showing, I distinctly heard someone in the audience say "So that's who she is!" when Eve is "properly introduced" to Bond. As for Mallory - we should have seen it coming a mile off! The relationship between this ex-SAS Colonel and RN Commander Bond is going to be interesting.

[Pussfeller]

I think I would have been more moved if the Colombian girl in our screening hadn't burst out laughing when M said the line, "Too late to make a run for it" or words to that effect. I think she laughed because she was moved, but it sure spoiled the mood for the rest of us. She also scoffed audibly during the thigh-rubbing scene. By the end of the movie I felt like giving her the Maud Adams special.

[Desk]

I felt nothing while watching M die. I've never cared for Judi Dench in the role, and I think one of the biggest mistakes in recent years has been trying to develop Bond's superior as a character.

M should be merely a plot decide, used to advance the storyline. What EON has done takes the film series down the route of cheap soap opera.

Desk

[Pussfeller]

I felt nothing while watching M die.

You're one hard mofo, Desk.

[The Shark]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I think we need to be careful regarding the comparisons to the literary Bond. All of those insights into the literary Bond's sensitivity and emotions come through Bond's internal monologue. He doesn't express them openly.

Exactly. The films can only convey Bond's internal monologue through music and non-verbal acting (I don't mean mime). But here, Bond's not just playing to Silva and his goons, he's playing to the audience too. We're not seeing Bond from the subjective angle we're used to.

[Pussfeller]

And unless they start making Bond films like episodes of Peep Show, that ambiguity is going to remain. Personally, I think it's in keeping with the spirit of the character, even as Fleming imagined him. Bond's personality is always subdued in comparison to his colorful surroundings. This contrast is an essential part of the Bond formula. He gets into exciting situations, interacts with weird people, but he himself is not weird or exciting or deep. He's not a complex Proustian soul, to be explored and puzzled out. He's an instrument. An enigma. We know him only by his words and actions and outward appearances.

[Vauxhall]

Umm, don't think that video should be posted here.

[marktmurphy]

I loved the film, and I got very tense when Silva put the gun to their heads, but her actual death didn't really get me. It's a pretty cliched scene. Seeing Bond cry is the more affecting moment, but even then... it didn't work for me.

I didn't get as punch-the-air at the office ending, either. It's a great film but those moments didn't have the impact they should have done on me.

[JazzyBond]

Loved the ending but I had more of a punch the air feeling with *gasp* QOS's ending. I know right? That horrible horrible movie which almost had the Bond franchise down for the count only to be resuscitated by SF! Whatever lol!

[The Shark]

I was moved a great deal. Tears even welled up in my eyes as I heard Thomas Newman's Tennyson and Mother in the film. Powerful stuff.

[Matt_13]

The DB5 scene you mention also had a similar effect. Almost anger with me actually, as stupid as that sounds. That was the point that elevated Silva to super-villainy, and Bond's expression suggested he obviously felt the same!

Bond's expression at the sight of his ruined car was priceless. He looked so mad he didn't even know what to do with himself.

[Aisforauric]

I think I would have been more moved if the Colombian girl in our screening hadn't burst out laughing when M said the line, "Too late to make a run for it" or words to that effect. I think she laughed because she was moved, but it sure spoiled the mood for the rest of us. She also scoffed audibly during the thigh-rubbing scene. By the end of the movie I felt like giving her the Maud Adams special.

"The Maud Adams special"....what, asking her to come back for another Bond film ;-)

I felt nothing while watching M die.

You're one hard mofo, Desk.

Yes, solid mahogany