10 replies to this topic

[Ziggy]

I have recently purchased the Blu Ray Discs of the first four James Bond movies – Dr No, From Russia With Love, Goldfinger and Thunderball – released by Fox/MGM and advertised as being restored and cleaned up by Lowry Digital. While the video quality of the first three movies is breathtaking, I have irrefutable proof that the Thunderball Blu Ray transfer was not done from the restored Lowry master but from an earlier digital master.

While some movie reviewers have picked up on the poorer video quality of Thunderball as compared to the other three Blu Rays, they all blame the Lowry restoration process, saying that the original print was damaged too badly for Lowry to fix. Now I know this to be untrue as the Ultimate Edition DVD restored by Lowry is spotless and gorgeous.

The following are some of the defects on the Blu Ray Disc which are all but absent from the Ultimate Edition DVD:

There are thin vertical lines throughout most of the film but particularly noticeable against the blue (or grey) backdrop of sky and sea. These vertical streaks are absent from the Lowry restored Ultimate Edition DVD. There are large specs of dirt and blemishes in various scenes, notably during the scene when Bond and the girl’s boat come out of the water after they first meet. Again these blemishes are absent from the Lowry restored Ultimate Edition DVD. There are also gate hairs visible in several scenes which have been cleaned up in The Lowry restorations.

The colour grading on the blu ray – so nicely evened out in the Lowry restoration – are inconsistent. At the beginning of the film the fleshtones appear natural, but after that – especially during the Bahamas sequences – they veer towards red/orange. On the Ultimate Edition DVD Bond and the girl appear tanned and not red. During screen wipes and dissolves the black levels are uneven, starting from grey before turning to black. Once again these flaws were all corrected by the Lowry restoration team and are not visible on the Ultimate Edition DVD. After the main titles sequence (2.20:1 ratio) the aspect ratio is not changed for 30 seconds whereas in the Ultimate Edition DVD the aspect ratio enlarges immediately after the titles sequence.

It is really sad that Thunderball, which contains some of the most exotic scenery and spectacular cinematography in the James Bond series, should be so marred.

The audio soundtrack is also not the same as that on the Ultimate Edition DVD which had a wider surround soundstage and was souped up with newly recorded enhancements: footsteps, background noise, etc. This is most noticeable with the “silent trap door” at Palmyra which is heard opening and closing on the Ultimate Edition DVD but is once again silent on the Blu Ray.

The main point is that the Ultimate Edition DVD of Thunderball cleaned by Lowry is a great transfer and there’s no reason the Thunderball Blu Ray Disc should have defects that the DVD doesn’t.

I have screenshots in order to prove my contention, but unfortunately the maximum allowable file size of 70K allows me to upload only one. I would just like some opinions as to whether Fox/MGM can rectify this matter. If Fox/MGM used the wrong master by mistake can it be re-pressed using the correct master? Or was the Lowry master intentionally overlooked? If so why?

[Joe Bond]

I've noticed the scratched as well. However, I don't fault MGM/Fox or Lowry for that matter since they don't bother me at all. The vertical scratches in Thunderball pop up in You Only Live Twice as well but on that movie its apparent on the DVD so to me it seems like a problem with the original negatives. Why would the UE have no vertical scratches and the Blu-ray does? Well the answer to that could be that Lowery used a DNR filter to remove dirt and scratches but removed some dirt that was present during filming say on the camera equipment instead of due to age. This would have removed detail from the image but since it was for a DVD transfer it didn't matter because it would not be noticeable at the DVD resolution. Then when Lowry was preparing the Blu-ray transfer they wanted to fix various issues like color timing and they may have wanted to put it through a finer DNR process that would not remove any detail and any dirt related to the filming condition but this may not have removed these vertical scratches as a result. They may have not been able to remove those vertical scratches without removing detail from the image that would be noticeable on the Blu-ray. This is all guess work on my part. I did email Gary Tooze over at DVDbeaver and I believe he told me that the Blu-ray image was the most faithful to the original theatrical presentation compared to the DVD's according to people who saw the film when it was released in theaters originally and those who actually own prints of the film. As for the audio, the new 5.1 DTS-HD track on the Blu-ray is the most faithful to the original mono and I suspect they used the Dolby Surround track that was created for one of the Laserdisc releases by the Fleming Foundation that tried to match the original mono as close as they could get. This track was made into a 5.1 track for the Special Edition DVD. The UE totally messed up this track by adding unnecessary new sound effects that are somewhat distracting like the sound effect when the door opens to the secret SPECTRE base in Paris and Largo walks through it is a perfect example. Additionally, the UE DVD has an audio error in the 5.1 track during the scene where Bond pulls the power plug on the boat during the scene where he makes contact with Domino for the first time. Well after he pulls the plug and then turns the ignition the engine makes a starting sound effect even though there should be no sound effect but the Blu-ray fixes this issue. I have no problem with this transfer at all even with the vertical scratches.

[doublenoughtspy]

The audio soundtrack is also not the same as that on the Ultimate Edition DVD which had a wider surround soundstage and was souped up with newly recorded enhancements: footsteps, background noise, etc. This is most noticeable with the “silent trap door” at Palmyra which is heard opening and closing on the Ultimate Edition DVD but is once again silent on the Blu Ray.

Those "enhancements" weren't there in the original film - I don't want them on any of the versions I pay for.

Lowry also infamously changed the blood red water in the Tball shark scene to clear because they didn't have people working on the film who were familiar with it - they thought the print had something wrong with it.

I'm all for improving the print as much as humanly possible - but when you start changing the film (audio, colors) to things the director never intended - I draw the line.

[jaguar007]

The lines are also on the UE, but since it is not hi-def, they are not as noticeable as on the blu ray.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

I think the transfer is very good for the BR, but for some reason with Thunderball I have often doubted that the original negs were used for it. I remember reading something about when the Bond fan club wanted to screen the film in the early nineties the original negs were lost and there were not many complete prints of TB left in the world. I'm not saying this is fact, but it's something I've always remembered.

I can't see how if it was the original neg used for the BR the titles would so abruptly fade out at the end of the film - they would be intact would they not, unless the fade out was done by Lowry to match the fade out on the original release.

Also there are so many different versions of TB some look better than others - I always thought the VHS print that was released in Widescreen mid nineties was the sharpest version of the film.

I remember watching TB on ITV as a kid and the striking rich look to the colours has never been present on any of the home video/DVD releases as far as I can remember.

[The Shark]

I have screenshots in order to prove my contention, but unfortunately the maximum allowable file size of 70K allows me to upload only one. I

Could you please upload one screenshot, to give some credence to your point?

[jamie00007]

You can find Ziggy's screenshots on the home theatre forum. Hope he doesnt mind me linking.

There are some noticeable differences on the Blu Ray, no doubt. But its clearly the Lowry transfer. Look at the colors and details. Those screenshots couldnt have come from any pre-restoration print. But he's right, there seems to be a lot of artifacts on the Blu Ray that arent on the DVD. The Blu Ray seems to have a higher contrast and is a little darker so that, along with the higher detail, could explain a lot of it. The DVD also looks much softer.
If you look at the shots with the skydivers, notice the difference in the cloud details on the left of the screen. The clouds are practically invisible on the DVD, just a white haze. On the Blu Ray you can see every little detail of them. If we cant even see the clouds on the DVD than its no surprise that the vertical line that can be seen on the Blu Ray version would also be invisible on the DVD. Im sure its there, we just cant see it.

Some of the others I cant explain though.

[5 BONDS]

Hi,

It is simple..do any of you own the special edition version released in 2000. The blu ray master is taken from that source because the ultimate edition had colour timing issues and other problems. Do a side by side comparison and you will notice all the vertical lines in the exact same places as well as any other anomalies.

Edited by 5 BONDS, 01 December 2010 - 08:24 AM.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

Hi,

It is simple..do any of you own the special edition version released in 2000. The blu ray master is taken from that source because the ultimate edition had colour timing issues and other problems. Do a side by side comparison and you will notice all the vertical lines in the exact same places as well as any other anomalies.

Yeah that makes sense. But this nullifies the inference that for TB at least the new masters came from the original camera negative. Why couldn't they just re-jig the colour timing on the print used for the UE then?

[Joe Bond]

Hi,

It is simple..do any of you own the special edition version released in 2000. The blu ray master is taken from that source because the ultimate edition had colour timing issues and other problems. Do a side by side comparison and you will notice all the vertical lines in the exact same places as well as any other anomalies.

Yeah that makes sense. But this nullifies the inference that for TB at least the new masters came from the original camera negative. Why couldn't they just re-jig the colour timing on the print used for the UE then?

Perhaps the artifacts are there but are invisible due to the difference in resolution or its possible the DVD transfer was too processed meaning a certain amount of DNR was used to remove grain and film artifacts which due to DVD's low resolution would not be noticeable but when transferring the film with the UE master to HD resolutions it would look horrible where there would be barely any film grain, details lost due to removing grain (ie. waxy faces). This would have lead Lowry to use less processing when the Blu-ray master was created.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

Whatever happened It seems almost certain there were problems with the Thunderball transfer for the Blu-ray. Although I know nothing about digital film restoration, resorting to the UE print seems a tad lucklustre to me. Maybe Lowry will have another go at it when all the Blu-rays are released when Bond 23 (finally) arrives