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Bond and married women


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#1 I never miss

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 04:39 PM

Having recently watched CR again, I was thinking about Bond and his brief affair with the married Solange, and his later admission to Vesper that he prefers married women.

A few days later I watched DN again and noticed that the character of Sylvia Trench is either married or engaged. This screencap shows it clearly:

http://screenmusings...ages/DN_038.htm

Anyhow, this was new to me and I wondered if there are any other married women that Bond has a fling with in the series. Paris Carver (originally rumoured to be Sylvia Trench whilst TND was in pre-production) is the only other one that comes to mind at the moment.

Edited by I never miss, 04 February 2010 - 04:39 PM.


#2 Goodnight

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 04:42 PM

"It keeps things simple" B)

#3 Trident

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 05:19 PM

"It keeps things simple" B)


Actually, no, it doesn't.

You'd be surprised how fast a woman can pack her suitcase and turn up on your doorstep, once she's made up her mind. And, contrary to common lore, the allure of sheer wealth on their husband's side can turn out to wither away with every year until it's not an effective argument for staying with hubby any more.

So Bond's preference is not a recommended method for keeping things simple. To the contrary.

#4 I never miss

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 05:39 PM

Perhaps Bond likes married women partly for the danger factor. I think Fleming wrote that Bond also liked not having to deal with them on an everyday basis - when Bond saw his married women it was strictly a 'fun' occasion. I could be wrong though.

#5 Trident

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:43 PM

Perhaps Bond likes married women partly for the danger factor. I think Fleming wrote that Bond also liked not having to deal with them on an everyday basis - when Bond saw his married women it was strictly a 'fun' occasion. I could be wrong though.


No, this is very much what I suspect too. There is no dreary daily routine in such an affair. Not at the start. Every date is fun, concentrates on celebrating love and life, and has the added spice of the extraordinary, of forbidden fruits, of adventure and 'danger'. It's a truly thrilling experience, able to make one feel slightly drunk and high for much longer than alcohol or substances can. A series of exquisitely memorable moments, giving a feeling of 'presence', a joy of life, that you cherish for the rest of your days.

But, like all things making you feel this way, there is also deadly serious side to it, and you should be aware of this, considering extensively the possible repercussions.

Which is of course what nobody in this situation ever does, for the allure lies exactly in not caring for what comes after.

#6 00Twelve

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 08:50 PM

Fleming discussed it in MR. All the 00s typically engaged in flings with married women.

#7 YOLT

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:55 PM

Because they are not virgin :tdown:

Ok ok ofcourse single ladies may not be virgin but maybe he learned something from Solitaire B)

#8 The Shark

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 12:59 AM

"It keeps things simple" B)


Actually, no, it doesn't.

You'd be surprised how fast a woman can pack her suitcase and turn up on your doorstep, once she's made up her mind. And, contrary to common lore, the allure of sheer wealth on their husband's side can turn out to wither away with every year until it's not an effective argument for staying with hubby any more.

So Bond's preference is not a recommended method for keeping things simple. To the contrary.


And think that line was meant to be ironic, and Mharkers was just referencing it. To state the obvious.

#9 MkB

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 01:40 AM

"It keeps things simple" B)


Actually, no, it doesn't.

You'd be surprised how fast a woman can pack her suitcase and turn up on your doorstep, once she's made up her mind. And, contrary to common lore, the allure of sheer wealth on their husband's side can turn out to wither away with every year until it's not an effective argument for staying with hubby any more.

So Bond's preference is not a recommended method for keeping things simple. To the contrary.


This is SO right...
Fleming's idea about this means that:
a - he lived and wrote in the 50s / early 60s
b - he thought the "dating a married woman" thing as if it were about married males: as a rule of thumb married males don't pack their suitcase easily, they're probably the "safe" ones when it comes to "keep thing simple", not the married women

I really think that, in today's world, the "Bond-dating-married-women-to-avoid-them-getting-attached" is totally off (if it has ever been realistic).

#10 The Shark

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 01:52 AM

"It keeps things simple" B)


Actually, no, it doesn't.

You'd be surprised how fast a woman can pack her suitcase and turn up on your doorstep, once she's made up her mind. And, contrary to common lore, the allure of sheer wealth on their husband's side can turn out to wither away with every year until it's not an effective argument for staying with hubby any more.

So Bond's preference is not a recommended method for keeping things simple. To the contrary.


This is SO right...
Fleming's idea about this means that:
a - he lived and wrote in the 50s / early 60s
b - he thought the "dating a married woman" thing as if it were about married males: as a rule of married males don't pack their suitcase easily, they're probably the "safe" ones when it comes to "keep thing simple", not the married women

I really think that, in today's world, the "Bond-dating-married-women-to-avoid-them-getting-attached" is totally off (if it has ever been realistic).


Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.

#11 danslittlefinger

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 02:02 AM

Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.


Sorry, but has there been a film where he hasn't been to women?
CR maybe or OHMSS?

#12 The Shark

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 02:05 AM

Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.


Sorry, but has there been a film where he hasn't been to women?
CR maybe or OHMSS?


CR, QOS, TLD, TND, TWINE etc...

#13 jaguar007

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 02:06 AM

A few days later I watched DN again and noticed that the character of Sylvia Trench is either married or engaged. This screencap shows it clearly:

Good catch, I have never noticed the ring before. I wonder if this was intentional or just that Eunice Gayson just forgot to take off her wedding ring and it went unnoticed.

#14 danslittlefinger

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 02:12 AM

Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.


Sorry, but has there been a film where he hasn't been to women?
CR maybe or OHMSS?


CR, QOS, TLD, TND, TWINE etc...


Umm, he shot Elecktra in TWINE and I'm sure he was a git in a few of those others you mentioned.
No?

#15 The Shark

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 02:47 AM

Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.


Sorry, but has there been a film where he hasn't been to women?
CR maybe or OHMSS?


CR, QOS, TLD, TND, TWINE etc...


Umm, he shot Elecktra in TWINE and I'm sure he was a git in a few of those others you mentioned.
No?


Not really. I think the cases I mentioned (Including TWINE, minus killing Elektra) Bond seems to be sensitive and kind towards the women he's with.

#16 danslittlefinger

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 03:03 AM

Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.


Sorry, but has there been a film where he hasn't been to women?
CR maybe or OHMSS?


CR, QOS, TLD, TND, TWINE etc...


Umm, he shot Elecktra in TWINE and I'm sure he was a git in a few of those others you mentioned.
No?


Not really. I think the cases I mentioned (Including TWINE, minus killing Elektra) Bond seems to be sensitive and kind towards the women he's with.


Ok, it's just me being a hard nosed bitter sod as usual.

#17 Publius

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 04:08 AM

Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.


Sorry, but has there been a film where he hasn't been to women?
CR maybe or OHMSS?


CR, QOS, TLD, TND, TWINE etc...

I always thought Rog was particularly gentlemanly (most of the time) TSWLM on, particularly in FYEO and OP where he was borderline romantic.

#18 DaveBond21

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 04:52 AM

Very interesting question.

I agree with jaguar, that Eunice Gayson may have omitted taking off her wedding ring - in fact I still see that today, although mostly in TV shows - where a supposedly single character is wearing a wedding ring (presumably because the actor refused or neglected to take it off). One example is Lisa Kudrow, who played Phoebe in Friends. Phoebe was a single character but Lisa always wore her wedding ring on set - however, she masked it by wearing rings on every other finger as well!

Back to the topic of Bond and married women. Roger Moore's first line as James Bond is "Not married by any chance are you?" when there is a knock at the door in the middle of the night. He also has a good kiss with Fekesh's wife in TSWLM.

Can anyone think of any more? The other women Bond has, although often attached, tend to be girlfriends of rivals rather than wives.

#19 jamie00007

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 04:55 AM

Not really. I think the cases I mentioned (Including TWINE, minus killing Elektra) Bond seems to be sensitive and kind towards the women he's with.

He was sensitive and kind sometimes, and a bastard at other times. Which is exactly how Fleming wrote him. Bond wasnt always a bastard. Look at Honeychile for instance, he really felt for her and wanted to help her and take her to England with him and try to get her on her feet.

In Casino Royale I dont think his treatment of Solange was particularly kind, and I dont think his treatment of Vesper for most of their scenes together would have endeared him to feminists. Same with Fields, theres certainly shades of Moore to the hotel scene.

#20 MkB

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 09:59 AM

"It keeps things simple" B)


Actually, no, it doesn't.

You'd be surprised how fast a woman can pack her suitcase and turn up on your doorstep, once she's made up her mind. And, contrary to common lore, the allure of sheer wealth on their husband's side can turn out to wither away with every year until it's not an effective argument for staying with hubby any more.

So Bond's preference is not a recommended method for keeping things simple. To the contrary.


This is SO right...
Fleming's idea about this means that:
a - he lived and wrote in the 50s / early 60s
b - he thought the "dating a married woman" thing as if it were about married males: as a rule of thumb married males don't pack their suitcase easily, they're probably the "safe" ones when it comes to "keep things simple", not the married women

I really think that, in today's world, the "Bond-dating-married-women-to-avoid-them-getting-attached" is totally off (if it has ever been realistic).


Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.


It's not a matter of being "a bit of a bastard". It's a matter of being a bit of an idiot.

What Trident ans I were saying is: a man sleeping with married women is MEANT to get in some kind of trouble at some point, so it's probably not the smartest way of handling your sex life when you're a secret agent. As far as I know.

#21 Zorin Industries

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 11:10 AM

Perhaps the line was said in CASINO ROYALE because it is a good line...?

#22 Trident

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 11:44 AM

"It keeps things simple" B)


Actually, no, it doesn't.

You'd be surprised how fast a woman can pack her suitcase and turn up on your doorstep, once she's made up her mind. And, contrary to common lore, the allure of sheer wealth on their husband's side can turn out to wither away with every year until it's not an effective argument for staying with hubby any more.

So Bond's preference is not a recommended method for keeping things simple. To the contrary.


This is SO right...
Fleming's idea about this means that:
a - he lived and wrote in the 50s / early 60s
b - he thought the "dating a married woman" thing as if it were about married males: as a rule of thumb married males don't pack their suitcase easily, they're probably the "safe" ones when it comes to "keep things simple", not the married women

I really think that, in today's world, the "Bond-dating-married-women-to-avoid-them-getting-attached" is totally off (if it has ever been realistic).


Why can't Bond be a bit of bastard?

As I always say, if it worked for Fleming, it will work now.


It's not a matter of being "a bit of a bastard". It's a matter of being a bit of an idiot.

What Trident ans I were saying is: a man sleeping with married women is MEANT to get in some kind of trouble at some point, so it's probably not the smartest way of handling your sex life when you're a secret agent. As far as I know.


Quite.

Whoever is toying with the idea [of married women] should also be aware that 'toying' becomes serious pretty fast and unrelenting. And it's really nothing to do with being a bit of a bastard, far more with being a generous amount of brush-daft tard in bloom.

As fans we of course fantasise about being Bond, in however minor a way. Some of us pick up smoking, drink or fancy dressing. Some may drive a SAAB or Aston, and particularly in the US some may master and excel in the art of shooting. Hardly anybody of us will ever have to face up against a dangerous gangster or terrorist; this we leave to the original, or the experts in real life. Which is all good and fine, a tiny bit of Bond-dom in our dreary lives for everybody.

Being young and impressible, many may feel an urge to try out the more exquisite ways of Bond. What can happen? Two adults meet, scratch each other where they feel approproiate and have just a good time. And if the female of the species (if you happen to be inclined this way) is married, this certainly adds to the experience. But be advised that this is really a two-edged blade and, no matter the outcome, you may easily find yourself in a situation you didn't bargain for, perhaps didn't even think possible. You may of course think that it won't concern you, that you are prepared to face the consequences or to walk away, emotionally unaffected (and secretly cultivating the picture you have of yourself; a hardboiled though bastard revelling in his own cheap vanity).

Believe me, you are not. Not until you actually find yourself in the situation. And then it's generally too late to do anything about it. You want to be a bit like Bond? Don't start with the married-women myth.



Perhaps the line was said in CASINO ROYALE because it is a good line...?


It is, for it does characterise Bond beyond what we see on screen. The implications are manifold and round Bond up in a way previously not seen. My concern isn't the line itself, but the likelihood to misinterpret it.

#23 MarcAngeDraco

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 01:02 PM

He also has a good kiss with Fekesh's wife in TSWLM.


I always thought she was more like his assistant or something. Not sure if I have any good reason for that though...


But to the main discussion, I think things have changed a great deal in the last 50 years with respect to how simple or complicated a dalliance with a married woman might realistically be...

#24 Goodnight

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 09:11 PM

"It keeps things simple" B)


Actually, no, it doesn't.

You'd be surprised how fast a woman can pack her suitcase and turn up on your doorstep, once she's made up her mind. And, contrary to common lore, the allure of sheer wealth on their husband's side can turn out to wither away with every year until it's not an effective argument for staying with hubby any more.

So Bond's preference is not a recommended method for keeping things simple. To the contrary.




Relaaaaaxxx, it was just a joke :tdown:

#25 Sark2.0

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 01:13 AM

I don't think either of those lines were meant to be more than half serious. Bond certainly doesn't seem to seek out married women.

#26 Trident

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 11:17 AM

"It keeps things simple" B)


Actually, no, it doesn't.

You'd be surprised how fast a woman can pack her suitcase and turn up on your doorstep, once she's made up her mind. And, contrary to common lore, the allure of sheer wealth on their husband's side can turn out to wither away with every year until it's not an effective argument for staying with hubby any more.

So Bond's preference is not a recommended method for keeping things simple. To the contrary.




Relaaaaaxxx, it was just a joke :tdown:




Sorry for bugging about it, just wanted to give a bit of a warning. Like they do on cigarettes, 'Fc*uk around responsibly!'

#27 Major Tallon

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 10:47 PM

Fleming discussed it in MR. All the 00s typically engaged in flings with married women.

Not necessarily all of them, though they do, according to Moonraker, chapter one, make "determined assaults" on the virtue of their secretary, Loelia Ponsonby.

Actually, I think Craig's line about romances with married women keeping things simple is extrapolated from a couple of references in the books. In Casino Royale, chapter 22, Bond reflects on his dissatisfaction with the progression of the typical love affair, which leads to a "mess of disentanglement." In Moonraker, chapter one, he's "making love with rather cold passion, to one of three similarly disposed married women," which means, I suspect, that the women in question are neglected by their husbands and often alone. Although Fleming doesn't say so, Bond might think that such a relationship "keeps things simple," because all concerned would realize that the relationship isn't going anywhere, apart from a few shared moments of passion, and, unlike the dreary affairs described in Casino Royale, can be broken off at any time without guilt, recrimination, or regret.

As Trident reminds us, however, real life isn't like that. Where human emotions are concerned, relationships that start out as simple have this annoying way of turning very complex indeed.

#28 JimmyBond

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 10:20 AM

Not something I'm proud of, but being with a few women who were not single (three, to be exact) I can certainly see what the attraction is. It's not so much that it keeps things simple, it's the allure...the challenge of trying to get someone who's already "given their heart" to make them think twice.

Please note, if any of you are thinking of sending me hate mail please know that this is something I have stopped doing.

#29 DaveBond21

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 11:38 PM

He also has a good kiss with Fekesh's wife in TSWLM.


I always thought she was more like his assistant or something. Not sure if I have any good reason for that though...



Actually you're probably right there, MarcAnge, because why would he call him Fekkesh to his wife? He'd probably say Mr Fekkesh. Unless Fekesh uses just the one name like Cher and Madonna!

#30 Double-Oh Agent

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 09:18 AM

He also has a good kiss with Fekesh's wife in TSWLM.


I always thought she was more like his assistant or something. Not sure if I have any good reason for that though...



Actually you're probably right there, MarcAnge, because why would he call him Fekkesh to his wife? He'd probably say Mr Fekkesh. Unless Fekesh uses just the one name like Cher and Madonna!

I always thought she was Fekkesh's girlfriend or perhaps secretary girlfriend.