38 replies to this topic

[Marcato]

is it just me or does the music of LTK (as hard in entire film) sounds more like an Arnold Bond movie than a John Barry Movie

[trs007]

is it just me or does the music of LTK (as hard in entire film) sounds more like an Arnold Bond movie than a John Barry Movie

To start, I think you are being too kind in even using the score score as part of the thread title.

With regard to Michael Kamen's "uninspired music and simply rehash the Bond theme for all major action sequences", for me, it most certainly does not come anywhere close to a Barry score, or even an Anrnold for that matter.

I take it for what it was---a composer filling in who was not the right choice for a Bond film, but who at least didn't give us something cringeworthy.

[Marcato]

is it just me or does the music of LTK (as hard in entire film) sounds more like an Arnold Bond movie than a John Barry Movie

To start, I think you are being too kind in even using the score score as part of the thread title.

With regard to Michael Kamen's "uninspired music and simply rehash the Bond theme for all major action sequences", for me, it most certainly does not come anywhere close to a Barry score, or even an Anrnold for that matter.

I take it for what it was---a composer filling in who was not the right choice for a Bond film, but who at least didn't give us something cringeworthy.

i find a lot of cringe worthy tunes in the films that are not on the album

in the film where they are played in order and not as album mix


Anold is good but still uninspired - his music circles around an idea - then he raises the key to fifth up and circles again - puls there are places where the music does not know where it goes - like the very start of ALL IN A DAYS WORK

Arnold did use the music better in TWINE but unfortunately his ideas completes themselves before the cue has finished and then they just circles around boring things - heard in BODY DOUBLE - the buiuld up in SHOW ME THE MONEY are exececuted well into COME IN 007,... but it hurry gets boring after about 1 minute


I like the idea Anold used in CASINO and QUANTUM by not using the bond theme so much - that's how a bond film should be - almost no bond theme - it's on time we look forward -

But still - Kamen was way better than Anold is

[SecretAgentFan]

I actually don´t see why this score has to be used in order to put down David Arnold. I do like the Kamen approach although it sounds quite similar to his other action scores (LETHAL WEAPON etc.). Then again, maybe that´s what EON was going for at the time.

I still would like to have an expanded album of Kamen´s score in order to really appreciate it.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Kamen's version of the Bond theme on the track Licence Revoked was one of the best in the series, in my opinion; it burst into the fanfare, then kept on building and building... until we suddenly switch gears into the guitar portion, followed by the orchestra pounding in, and it's all just too cool.

[trs007]

As fans, we are all entitled to our opinions but I must say that IN MY OPNION: ANY of David Arnold's Bond scores are far superior to LTK's score. In fact, and I think can recall enough to support this, I think many of Anrold's non-Bond scores are superior to Kamen's non-Bond scores.

All told--I am glad Arnold has the gig and not Kamen (although in 1995 he would have been HIGHLY preferrable to Serra).

Arnold is getting better and more refined with each film he does. Looking forward to 2011 (I hope).

[St. John Smythe]

As fans, we are all entitled to our opinions but I must say that IN MY OPNION: ANY of David Arnold's Bond scores are far superior to LTK's score. In fact, and I think can recall enough to support this, I think many of Anrold's non-Bond scores are superior to Kamen's non-Bond scores.

All told--I am glad Arnold has the gig and not Kamen (although in 1995 he would have been HIGHLY preferrable to Serra).

Arnold is getting better and more refined with each film he does. Looking forward to 2011 (I hope).

I actually like the LTK score, at least in the scene with Bond and Pam in the lifeboat (after they've gone all Roadhouse on the people in the bar). It's dated, but I thought it was rather pretty and sunset-y. The rest wasn't too memorable, I guess, but the music isn't usually something I notice - I usually only take note if the music's truly horrendous.

Which brings me to Serra. Word on Serra, trs007 - he's responsible for the most abysmal Bond soundtrack ever. I usually don't think too much about the music for Bond films, but Goldeneye was the only movie I walked away from thinking, "Man, that music sucked."

[trs007]

Word on Serra, trs007 - he's responsible for the most abysmal Bond soundtrack ever. I usually don't think too much about the music for Bond films, but Goldeneye was the only movie I walked away from thinking, "Man, that music sucked."

Never have truer and more brilliant words been posted on this site.

I LOATHE what Serra did to Bond

[The Shark]

I must say, LTK is far better than ANY of Arnold's scores, as are Kamen's non-Bond scores better than Arnold's respective non-Bond scores. While, it's occasionally boring, generic and sometimes dull. It along with the rest of Kamen's scores, expresses far more craft, talent, dynamism, understanding of composition and orchestration, and nuance than anything Arnold has ever composed.

I LOVE what Serra did to Bond, and I absolutely hate what Arnold has done to the series, and continues to do. It's a sick joke that the producers continue to hire him, after producing 5 generic, indistinguishable, techno-ridden, cheap-sounding, poorly done Barry-parodies in a row.

What did John Barry produce after after 5-6 soundtracks? From Russia WIth Love, Goldfinger, Thunderball, You Only Live Twice and On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

What has Arnold produced? Techno Barry-lite. Again, and again, and again.

[stromberg]

Word on Serra, trs007 - he's responsible for the most abysmal Bond soundtrack ever. I usually don't think too much about the music for Bond films, but Goldeneye was the only movie I walked away from thinking, "Man, that music sucked."

Never have truer and more brilliant words been posted on this site.

I LOATHE what Serra did to Bond

I'm usually very careful when it comes to using such drastic expressions (especially when it comes to Bond), but we're definitely on the same page here.

I'm a completist when it comes to soundtrack recordings, but I din't even bother to get the remastered version of the GE soundtrack. Says a lot.

[Marcato]

As fans, we are all entitled to our opinions but I must say that IN MY OPNION: ANY of David Arnold's Bond scores are far superior to LTK's score. In fact, and I think can recall enough to support this, I think many of Anrold's non-Bond scores are superior to Kamen's non-Bond scores.

Few days ago - I got my hand in a sealed copy of Arnold's GODZILLA 2cd-set) - I was very anxious to get my hand in this holy grail - or so I thought - after a listening I've come to realize that I wouldn't have missed anything if I had choose not to buy it. I can make a comparement to PRINCE OF THIEVES - though they are two different movies - and the music on album is not their best I would still choose THIVES over GODZILLA

Should I choose ID4 over GODZILLA then I would pick 4 - Arnold seems to get more praise than he should have - I was once fan of Arnold thinking he was cool But I have getting a bit tired of him. Of the scores, I have heard from him I think his best efforts are ID4 and Tomorrow Never Dies - from the time were he was on his peak. I have heard Stargate - did not like it - I have not seen the film - will see the film and revisit the score there to see if I can change - I have not seen LAST DOGMEN - so I cannot speak for that

Nevertheless, in the end I would choose Kaman over Arnold -

Edited by Marcato, 04 January 2010 - 11:53 PM.

[The Shark]

As fans, we are all entitled to our opinions but I must say that IN MY OPNION: ANY of David Arnold's Bond scores are far superior to LTK's score. In fact, and I think can recall enough to support this, I think many of Anrold's non-Bond scores are superior to Kamen's non-Bond scores.

Few days ago - i got my hand in a sealed copy of Arnold's GODZILLA 2cd-set) - I was very anxious to get my hand in this holy grail - or so I thought - after a listening I've come to realise that i wouldn't have missed anything if i had choose not to buy it - i can make a comparement to PRINCE OF THIEVES - though they are two different movies - and the music on album is not their best i would still prefere THIVES over GODZILLA

would it be ID4 over GODZILLA then i would grab ID4 - Arnold seems to get more praise than he should have - i was once fan of Arnold thinking he was cool But I have getted a bit tired of him - Of the scores i have heard from him i think his best eforts are ID4 and Tomorrow Never Dies - from the time were he was on his highs - i have heard Stargate - did not like it - i have not seen the film - will see the film and revisit the score there to see if i can change - i have not seen LAST DOGMEN - so i cannot speak for that

But in the end - I would prefere Kamen over Arnold -

Well said. Stargate was one of the few soundtracks that caused me to switch off the TV set, in it's sheer awfulness.

Goldeneye is Shostakovitch compared to Arnold's entire output as a composer.

[Marcato]

Actually, I don't hate GoldenEye

This will be a needle in the eye for many, but here goes.


I think GoldenEye works fantastic in the movie - even the awfully tank sequence but more on that later.


Serra's music with GoldenEye is way better balance than Arnold's music (reasons includes Arnold's circle mentioned in an early post of this thread)

The music in the film are Cool - even the gunbarrel with is sound design are cool - but here Arnold does win - his gunbarrel for TWINE is still better


On Album GE is a different matter

Some tracks do standout

GoldenEye Overture
Ladies First
We Share the Same Passions
Run, Shoot and Jumps (film-mix at final showdown running is better though)
A Little Surprise for You


Other tracks do have parts of it that is good

Antenna out water part - not xenia's death

The rest I tend to skip those


For the tank sequence

Yes, I do love the orchestral version (the one used in the film)

And I do not like the Serra version


HOWEVER, I would still prefer the Serra in the film

I saw a youtube clip of this were they had mixed-in Serra’s music.

The orchestral version makes Bond a brutal Dinosaur with no care for innocent police officer's health

The Serra version made the scene funny and actual played a bit on the comic things


In the end, Arnold did succeed better but that's about it - as a bond score compared to others GE is weak but it is still a very pleasant listening experience and it works well in the film. But GE is nothing compared to the entries of J. Barry. Moreover, it can’t even be compared to the music of John Barry.

[trs007]

I'm usually very careful when it comes to using such drastic expressions (especially when it comes to Bond), but we're definitely on the same page here.

I'm a completist when it comes to soundtrack recordings, but I din't even bother to get the remastered version of the GE soundtrack. Says a lot.

What says even more, at the risk of remaining off topic, is when the film's own team decide to replace the music during an action scene, and thank god they did. Listening to that NOISE when I first gave the CD a listen--horrible. Serra's "music" needs to stay where it originated, in Luc Besson films. IMO, he did not have what it took to be a Bond composer, and like Baskin Robbins, respect there are many opinions out there--but a Serra fan I AM NOT.

One of the cruelest ironies I can remember at that time, was watching the Bond documentary hosted by Liz Hurley in 1995. Now, I taped it and watched it AFTER seeing GE to remain spolier-free, so I already knew what a score we had in place. And during the TV special, there was John Barry, talking about what makes a good Bond score. Horrible, just horrible. Kind of like listening to a master chef describe a great meal, while you're forced to eat dog food.

I think, so long as I am rambling, another reason the LOATHING (yes, Stromberg, I stand by that word) is delay between LTK and GE. In the past, Bond films were regular, every 2 years. OK, so if one didn't deliver a knockout score, well, you had one two years ago and another in two years time.

We all waited SIX years for GE, and in addition to being a Bond afficiando, I am also a film score afficiando. So, six years--waiting for not only the film, but the joy of a new Bond score--which would require hours of pleasant listening--shot to h*ll. And, an uncertain prospect of how long till the next one. That sucked.

I was fortunate enough to attend the GE World Premire in NYC so I had seen the film prior to the CD release. The wind was certainly knocked out of my sails that week. And certainly none of the usual anticipation of getting the score.

Fortunately, that would all change in 1997---the TND score. If it was physically possible, I might have burned the CD laser out from finally getting back to what a good Bond score was.

Back on topic--Kamen--passable score to a great film. Nothing special, nothing cringeworthy.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

Michael Kamen or David Arnold, I wouldn't know who to chose, I do know that I prefer Eric Serra to either of them.

Edited by O.H.M.S.S., 05 January 2010 - 08:01 PM.

[The Shark]

Michael Kamen or David Arnold, I wouldn't know who to chose, I do know that I prefer Eric Serra to either of them.

Well said. Those who hate the GE score are just ignorant philistines.

The cold timpani and synthesised Russian basso profundos, capture the film's post-war mood perfectly, in a way similar to how Barry gave each of his films a unique sound, Serra provided GE with one.

People also seem to forget the Romantic side of GE, which is evident in many of the tracks. The classical orientated diminished harmonies are in many ways more complex than even a wealth of Barry's romantic cues. Far better than anything Arnold has come up with so far, and it's a joke that he was hired instead of Serra.

Ideally Eric Serra would still be composing Bond soundtracks to this day, instead of the hack we have now.

Fortunately, that would all change in 1997---the TND score.

The death knell to Bond music. The dark ages of 007 scores.

We all waited SIX years for GE, and in addition to being a Bond afficiando, I am also a film score afficiando. So, six years--waiting for not only the film, but the joy of a new Bond score--which would require hours of pleasant listening--shot to h*ll. And, an uncertain prospect of how long till the next one. That sucked.

Describes how myself and countless other fans have felt since 97.

[St. John Smythe]

Serra's score isn't even suitable for an unauthorized pørn version of a Bond movie.

And from the sound of it, that's pretty much what he was going for.

I definitely prefer Kamen's score for LTK. I like the Spanish guitar influences, especially - as I'd mentioned before - when Pam and Bond are on the boat and kiss for the first time. There was some subtle late 80s electronic sounds, but nothing that was obnoxious *cough* Serra *cough*.

I could debate the extreme lackluster-ness of Serra until the end of time, however, but since this isn't the thread for that, I'll refrain from doing so.

For now . . .

[The Shark]

Serra's score isn't even suitable for an unauthorized pørn version of a Bond movie.

And from the sound of it, that's pretty much what he was going for.

That's the only track (I think there's one other two, the original tank chase I think) on the album that I'd say is more suitable for a low-budget pørn version of Bond. Everything else is brilliant.

[Dr.Fell]

I remember when I saw that Bond music special on the AVTAK UE. Micheal Kamen comes off as a rather energetic fellow and that energy reflects his scores but unfortunately his efforts come off as mundane. Licence To Kill had a score that dosen't entirely fail but it's very by the numbers for an action film.

The only David Arnold score I put above his is Casino Royale but I can't say I am very impressed with that one either. As for Eric Serra, his score dates Goldeneye by about 10 years but so do the special effects and set decor.

Edited by Dr.Fell, 06 January 2010 - 01:36 AM.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Michael Kamen's score is a good score, but it's definitely below the efforts of John Barry, George Martin, Marvin Hamlisch, Bill Conti, and yes, David Arnold who has been a great 007 composer (although not as good as the incomparable Barry).

As for Eric Serra's GoldenEye score, there is some good stuff in it such as the romantic themes that The Shark mentioned; The GoldenEye Overture; and Run, Shoot, And Jump, which is his best work. But overall, the GoldenEye score is not right for a Bond film. It is tonally out of place. Every time I watch the film I can't believe the music I'm hearing is Bond music. I find that the music works much better just listening to the soundtrack on CD rather than meshing with what's going on on-screen. As a result, it's a bit of a misfire film-wise, and in the 007 pantheon is only better than Michel Legrand's awful Never Say Never Again score.

[Dr.Fell]

As a result, it's a bit of a misfire film-wise, and in the 007 pantheon is only better than Michel Legrand's awful Never Say Never Again score.

Now THAT was a pørn music score.

[The Shark]

As for Eric Serra's GoldenEye score, there is some good stuff in it such as the romantic themes that The Shark mentioned; The GoldenEye Overture; and Run, Shoot, And Jump, which is his best work. But overall, the GoldenEye score is not right for a Bond film. It is tonally out of place.

It's not tonally out of place for the film, and that's what matters. It works because unlike Arnold, it doesn't try parody or pastiche Barry in any form and goes entirely by it's own root. It fits the gritty, post-cold war feel of the film like a glove.

Perhaps it doesn't work for some generic, lifeless, perfect idea of a Bond film (whatever that is), but it works brilliantly for Goldeneye.

As a result, it's a bit of a misfire film-wise, and in the 007 pantheon is only better than Michel Legrand's awful Never Say Never Again score.

Really? I'd say it's easily better than Hamlisch's TSWLM, Conti's FYEO, Legrand's NSNA, Kamen's LTK, and all of Arnold's scores.

Now THAT was a pørn music score.

*Ahem*

[Dr.Fell]

*Ahem*

I was talking about Legrand's score. Also that I don't think qualifies as pørn music, it's just corny.

Also I agree much of Serra's score is totally out of place for much of the film. When Bond and Xenia first meet at the Casino, why was the music so damn moody ? It was suppose to be light hearted flirting between the two. Then when the Tiger Helicopter was stolen the music totally undermines what is going on, it's far too obnoxious and rather sexual I must say.As Double-Oh Agent, Serra's work is fine on it's own but totally out of step in GOLDENEYE.

Edited by Dr.Fell, 06 January 2010 - 03:23 PM.

[Donovan Mayne-Nicholls]

I find that a lot of the criticism on Kamen's score is due to how badly represented is on the OST album. Initially, I was thrilled that we got an album exceeding the 40 minute mark (hey, you can safely squeeze 50 minutes into a vynil LP, why did they have to be so bloody tightfisted about releasing tracks?) but then I realised that the Kamen score amounted to less than 30! Kamen was not involved with the songs at any level (and it shows, they're atrocious). The tracks on the album are fanfare heavy and even on CD, you can't programme them to run in film order. The film has some very good moments such as the fish warehouse and Bond on the roof of the casino, etc. I especially like MK's use of the oboe as a featured instrument.
Not that it's likely to see the light of day, but I for one would love a score-only album rerelease.

[The Shark]

Also I agree much of Serra's score is totally out of place for much of the film. When Bond and Xenia first meet at the Casino, why was the music so damn moody ?

Makes perfect sense to me. Arnold would have scored it by matching the scene perfectly, but ultimately unnecessarily telling us exactly what we already know on the screen.

Serra's score works on a deeper, much more intelligent level - the Fleming-esque haze of the Casino, the promise of taking home the girl, Bond's suspicion of Xenia, his tiredness, her beauty, the increasing sense of foreboding.

All of those mixed-messages aren't entirely evident in the film itself, but as a good score does, it brings them out, and gives the scene a new meaning.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

Also I agree much of Serra's score is totally out of place for much of the film. When Bond and Xenia first meet at the Casino, why was the music so damn moody ?

Makes perfect sense to me. Arnold would have scored it by matching the scene perfectly, but ultimately unnecessarily telling us exactly what we already know on the screen.

Serra's score works on a deeper, much more intelligent level - the Fleming-esque haze of the Casino, the promise of taking home the girl, Bond's suspicion of Xenia, his tiredness, her beauty, the increasing sense of foreboding.

All of those mixed-messages aren't entirely evident in the film itself, but as a good score does, it brings them out, and gives the scene a new meaning.

The Shark is absolutely right.

[Dr.Fell]

Makes perfect sense to me. Arnold would have scored it by matching the scene perfectly, but ultimately unnecessarily telling us exactly what we already know on the screen.

The point of musical scores are about telling us what we are seeing. Film is a audio and visual medium and mis-matched music is dentrimental.

Serra's score works on a deeper, much more intelligent level - the Fleming-esque haze of the Casino, the promise of taking home the girl, Bond's suspicion of Xenia, his tiredness, her beauty, the increasing sense of foreboding.

I think you are putting too much stock into the scene given the one-liners that were spewn on a constant basis, it was basically recreation of the Baccarat scene in Dr.No; Cool and comfortable. Now the score after wards when Bond is following Xenia outside is more defensible

All of those mixed-messages aren't entirely evident in the film itself, but as a good score does, it brings them out, and gives the scene a new meaning.

A good score is suppose to bring out the scene yes but with the right music.

[The Shark]

Makes perfect sense to me. Arnold would have scored it by matching the scene perfectly, but ultimately unnecessarily telling us exactly what we already know on the screen.

The point of musical scores are about telling us what we are seeing. Film is a audio and visual medium and mis-matched music is dentrimental.

No, that's called underscoring, which is a lazy cliché which treats the audience like idiots, in other words what Arnold does all the time. He gives every explosion, boat jump, car turn or punch a stupid brass crescendo, and every villainous line a morose string figure. That's almost always detrimental to the film, making it seem unnecessarily banal, and silly. John Barry rarely did that.

Ideally, as I said before, the score should expose a new layer and a new meaning, something already present within the scene, and not work against it.

The purpose of the score is to work with the scene in the end as a coherent, unified whole, and the Goldeneye scene does that very well.

Serra's score works on a deeper, much more intelligent level - the Fleming-esque haze of the Casino, the promise of taking home the girl, Bond's suspicion of Xenia, his tiredness, her beauty, the increasing sense of foreboding.

I think you are putting too much stock into the scene given the one-liners that were spewn on a constant basis, it was basically recreation of the Baccarat scene in Dr.No; Cool and comfortable. Now the score after wards when Bond is following Xenia outside is more defensible

The whole score through the Casino scene is very defensible as I explained before. Yes the idea for the scene is un-inspired, but the result of the dialogue (minus cheap puns) and performances is something more complex and Fleming-esque.

If what you said is all you see of the scene, then the score will be equally dull. A score should lift a scene, not mimic it.

All of those mixed-messages aren't entirely evident in the film itself, but as a good score does, it brings them out, and gives the scene a new meaning.

A good score is suppose to bring out the scene yes but with the right music.

It IS the right music.

[Dr.Fell]

No, that's called underscoring, which is a lazy cliché which treats the audience like idiots, in other words what Arnold does all the time. He gives every explosion, boat jump, car turn or punch a stupid brass crescendo, and every villainous line a morose string figure. That's almost always detrimental to the film, making it seem unnecessarily banal, and silly. John Barry rarely did that.

I am not a fan of David Arnold but what you call underscoring is incorrect. John Barry does exactly what I am talking about. Take the Goldfinger score for example. When Bond knocks out that guard in the PTS the music jumps slightly but maintains the atmosphere of Bond undercover. When Bond accidently hits the tripwire with Tilly Masterson's rifle at Auric Enterprises there is a noticable "jump" after a tense build up when Bond goes back up the mountain. The music is telling the story as much as the visuals are.

The purpose of the score is to work with the scene in the end as a coherent, unified whole, and the Goldeneye scene does that very well.

I only will concede to a few scenes, everything else was out of place and dates the film horribly.

The whole score through the Casino scene is very defensible as I explained before. Yes the idea for the scene is un-inspired, but the result of the dialogue (minus cheap puns) and performances is something more complex and Fleming-esque.

Complex ? Hardly. It's pretty sterile dialogue with the usual Bond know it all quip and the lame puns; This was not a dramatic scene by any means no even Fleming-esque. In general the dialogue in GOLDENEYE was terrible but that is another subject.

If what you said is all you see of the scene, then the score will be equally dull. A score should lift a scene, not mimic it.

I am not talking about mimicing, I am talking about story telling via the music.

[The Shark]

I am not a fan of David Arnold but what you call underscoring is incorrect. John Barry does exactly what I am talking about. Take the Goldfinger score for example. When Bond knocks out that guard in the PTS the music jumps slightly but maintains the atmosphere of Bond undercover. When Bond accidently hits the tripwire with Tilly Masterson's rifle at Auric Enterprises there is a noticable "jump" after a tense build up when Bond goes back up the mountain. The music is telling the story as much as the visuals are.

You're right, though they're what you'd call stingers, like the weird flutter-tonguing trombones when Bond is hit by grenades under the Disco Volante in TB. They're there, but no where near as prominent compared to how Arnold underlines every action and gesture. I remember John Barry said in an interview that he disliked that approach to scoring, of providing a hit for ever action or sound effect, but in most cases he was told to do so by the director.

I only will concede to a few scenes, everything else was out of place and dates the film horribly.

I'll say only one or two things were out of place (the ladies first driving scene for example) but the rest got it perfectly. It still stands up now, and gives Goldeneye a distinctive identity, that most modern Bond films lack.

Complex ? Hardly. It's pretty sterile dialogue with the usual Bond know it all quip and the lame puns; This was not a dramatic scene by any means no even Fleming-esque. In general the dialogue in GOLDENEYE was terrible but that is another subject.

What I'm saying is that the score gives it a complexity that the scene lacks, which is a good thing in my opinion. It doesn't detract from anything and meshes pretty well with the tone of the performances and direction. Romantic is the best way to describe it.

I am not talking about mimicing, I am talking about story telling via the music.

And that's what it does.