25 replies to this topic

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

M: I'm sure she hoped they would let her live. But she must have known she was going to her death.

I don't really understand what this means.

She hoped that the organization let her life peacefully with Bond after bring them the money?? Vesper already had decided to commit suicide in the minute that left the message for Bond in the cel phone, before to say goodbye to him in the hotel lobby?? I know that this assumptions (questions) could sound crazy, but I can't find any reasonable explanation to this speech.

Can somebody explain this M's line (hopefully basing strictly in CR, and not extending to QOS)??

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 10 December 2008 - 08:21 AM.

[SecretAgentFan]

It´s rather clear, I think.

Vesper knew that she had betrayed Mi6 (and Bond) by working for Quantum. Her job was to get the money back to Bond. That´s why Mr.White let her and Bond live.

Bond got the money. Went to Venice with Vesper. She saw that Quantum already was waiting there for her to deliver the money. When she said goodbye to Bond in the hotel, she knew she was about to commit the biggest betrayal to Bond. She also knew that Bond would find out that she gave the money to Quantum.

So she knew that everything would end in Venice.

She hoped that Quantum would let her and Bond live. But of course, she had to consider that Quantum would kill anyone who could betray them, too.

Hence, Vesper expected to be killed by Quantum or sent to prison by Bond. To show Bond at least that she did not like to betray him she sent the SMS with the lead to Mr.White. But she could not stand facing Bond again. So she decided not to be rescued by him.

[marktmurphy]

I never wholly wrapped my head around this bit- a big old flaw in the ending if you ask me.

I don't think there's any reason to think that she knew she was going to her death, not sure what M was on about. Why would Quantum want Vesper to think that they were going to kill her if they thought she was doing it to set her boyfriend free i.e. so that they could be together again? Wouldn't there be a danger of making her less inclined to bring the cash?

[HildebrandRarity]

So much for Casino Royale being "better" than Q0S.

Casino Royale is an incomplete James Bond film with too many loose ends. Quantum is the better film.

[CaptainPower]

So much for Casino Royale being "better" than Q0S.

Casino Royale is an incomplete James Bond film with too many loose ends. Quantum is the better film.

[marktmurphy]

So much for Casino Royale being "better" than Q0S.

Casino Royale is an incomplete James Bond film with too many loose ends. Quantum is the better film.

Quantum just adds to the nonsense surrounding Vesper, though. 'If she hadn't have killed herself we'd have had you' says White. Er, come again? And it tries to tie up the loose ends by simply saying 'oh, Vesper's boyfriend was a baddie. Let's not worry about that any more'. It's rubbish.
CR has its flaws, but it's far, far superior to Quantum in my book.

[HildebrandRarity]

So much for Casino Royale being "better" than Q0S.

Casino Royale is an incomplete James Bond film with too many loose ends. Quantum is the better film.

Quantum just adds to the nonsense surrounding Vesper, though. 'If she hadn't have killed herself we'd have had you' says White. Er, come again?

Hold on, mark...it makes perfect sense.

Quantum seems to like to black-mail those in government/intelligence circles.

White tells Bond that if Vesper hadn't killed herself, they'd have him too. How? Because, according to CR, Bond is "in love" with Vesper...and what better way to get Bond to 'work' for them than to kidnap Vesper and black-mail him. "Do this or we kill her". How does that not make sense?

SO...

Either what's said by White in Q0S makes perfect sense..

OR

Bond is full of when he professes his love for Vesper in CR.

[SecretAgentFan]

Why would Quantum want Vesper to think that they were going to kill her if they thought she was doing it to set her boyfriend free i.e. so that they could be together again?

Quantum did not want Vesper to think that they were going to kill her. But Vesper, of course, had to expect that a crime organization would not stick to their word.

Wouldn't there be a danger of making her less inclined to bring the cash?

No. Vesper was torn between her new love for Bond and her old love for Yussef. If she had kept the money she would have risked Yussef to be killed by Quantum. She had no choice but give the money to Quantum. That was her big dilemma.

[marktmurphy]

Quantum just adds to the nonsense surrounding Vesper, though. 'If she hadn't have killed herself we'd have had you' says White. Er, come again?

Hold on, mark...it makes perfect sense.

Quantum seems to like to black-mail those in government/intelligence circles.

White tells Bond that if Vesper hadn't killed herself, they'd have him too. How? Because, according to CR, Bond is "in love" with Vesper...and what better way to get Bond to 'work' for them than to kidnap Vesper and black-mail him. "Do this or we kill her". How does that not make sense?

SO...

Either what's said by White in Q0S makes perfect sense..

OR

Bond is full of when he professes his love for Vesper in CR.

Shame Bond had resigned when all that happened. He wasn't in the intelligence crowd- Vesper just had to tell them that to prevent it all. Plus of course, Bond had already killed all the bad guys- she was no longer being held by Quantum; if she hadn't have killed herself they er, wouldn't have either Vesper or Bond. They both would have sailed away on their yacht and that would be that.

Why would Quantum want Vesper to think that they were going to kill her if they thought she was doing it to set her boyfriend free i.e. so that they could be together again?

Quantum did not want Vesper to think that they were going to kill her. But Vesper, of course, had to expect that a crime organization would not stick to their word.

Which is where of course it gets murky. Did she even have any proof that Yusef was still alive? If she's so hard nosed as to believe that they're going to kill her, why believe that Yusef is alive?

Wouldn't there be a danger of making her less inclined to bring the cash?

No. Vesper was torn between her new love for Bond and her old love for Yussef. If she had kept the money she would have risked Yussef to be killed by Quantum. She had no choice but give the money to Quantum. That was her big dilemma.

Shame she lead Bond to her meeting to Quantum- she risked that they wouldn't get the money and therefore that they'd kill Yusef!

[HildebrandRarity]

Quantum just adds to the nonsense surrounding Vesper, though. 'If she hadn't have killed herself we'd have had you' says White. Er, come again?

Hold on, mark...it makes perfect sense.

Quantum seems to like to black-mail those in government/intelligence circles.

White tells Bond that if Vesper hadn't killed herself, they'd have him too. How? Because, according to CR, Bond is "in love" with Vesper...and what better way to get Bond to 'work' for them than to kidnap Vesper and black-mail him. "Do this or we kill her". How does that not make sense?

SO...

Either what's said by White in Q0S makes perfect sense..

OR

Bond is full of when he professes his love for Vesper in CR.

Shame Bond had resigned when all that happened. He wasn't in the intelligence crowd- Vesper just had to tell them that to prevent it all. Plus of course, Bond had already killed all the bad guys- she was no longer being held by Quantum; if she hadn't have killed herself they er, wouldn't have either Vesper or Bond. They both would have sailed away on their yacht and that would be that.

Bond tendered his resignation but that doesn't mean it couldn't be reversed. It also doesn't mean he couldn't be "useful" to them in "another" way. His mind doesn't get wiped clean as soon as he hits <send> on his lap top in the Gulf Of Venice.

If you assume that the 'organization' would simply take its lumps and 'let it go' or "cut its losses", then i've got an ocean-front condo in Nevada for sale (on-line only) for you.

[DR76]

So much for Casino Royale being "better" than Q0S.

Casino Royale is an incomplete James Bond film with too many loose ends. Quantum is the better film.

Captain Power, I share your feelings.

[marktmurphy]

Bond tendered his resignation but that doesn't mean it couldn't be reversed. It also doesn't mean he couldn't be "useful" to them in "another" way. His mind doesn't get wiped clean as soon as he hits <send> on his lap top in the Gulf Of Venice.

If you assume that the 'organization' would simply take its lumps and 'let it go' or "cut its losses", then i've got an ocean-front condo in Nevada for sale (on-line only) for you.

But that doesn't alter the fact that Bond had killed everyone- Vesper was free to go. They couldn't get her even if she hadn't committed suicide.
Perhaps the Quantum people in the UK like Mitchell could have taken her later- but why would Vesper suspect that? She didn't even know Yusef was Quantum- she had no idea of the size of it. Also, why was Vesper the only one they could kidnap? Why not take M's mysterious husband? Bond's aunty or someone? Seduce Bond with a female version of Yusef? Why does Vesper killing herself mean that they have no way of 'getting to' Bond if they're so powerful? They appear to have 'let it go' or 'cut their losses' there.
Plus, even if somehow they had got hold of Vesper, M knew full well that Bond was off sailing with her- would she really not have suspected anything if he'd just simply said 'oh sorry; didn't mean to resign. Gone off Vesper now'? He would have been an immediate security risk if Vesper had suspiciously disappeared.

It kind of works, but think about it any further (as it asks you to) and it falls apart somewhat.

[Royal Dalton]

I never wholly wrapped my head around this bit- a big old flaw in the ending if you ask me.

Yep. And it didn't look like Vesper was in much danger of being killed until Bond stuck his oar in, anyway.

In any case, how did M suddenly know Vesper's life story ten seconds after she'd croaked?

[HildebrandRarity]

Bond tendered his resignation but that doesn't mean it couldn't be reversed. It also doesn't mean he couldn't be "useful" to them in "another" way. His mind doesn't get wiped clean as soon as he hits <send> on his lap top in the Gulf Of Venice.

If you assume that the 'organization' would simply take its lumps and 'let it go' or "cut its losses", then i've got an ocean-front condo in Nevada for sale (on-line only) for you.

But that doesn't alter the fact that Bond had killed everyone- Vesper was free to go. They couldn't get her even if she hadn't committed suicide.
Perhaps the Quantum people in the UK like Mitchell could have taken her later- but why would Vesper suspect that?...

It kind of works, but think about it any further (as it asks you to) and it falls apart somewhat.

...but her deal was with Mr White...and he isn't killed with "everyone".


Regardless of the above, this thread confirms - to me - that CR remains 'incomplete'.

People can roll their eyes till the cows come home but, to me, Q0S is better than CR.

[00Twelve]

[quote name='marktmurphy' post='971097' date='10 December 2008 -
But that doesn't alter the fact that Bond had killed everyone- Vesper was free to go. They couldn't get her even if she hadn't committed suicide. [/quote]
White was there, too. He was performing his (now) usual routine of letting others take the risks while he keeps a low profile, but Bond did not kill "everybody." One cannot say for certain that Quantum would have just let her go because that one deal was concluded. What would be their motivation to not use her anymore?

[stamper]

People can roll their eyes till the cows come home but, to me, Q0S is better than CR.

OK, I need at least Spinal Tap band speakers so that everyone can hear me ROLL !

MEUAHHHH AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

People can roll their eyes till the cows come home but, to me, Q0S is better than CR.

OK, I need at least Spinal Tap band speakers so that everyone can hear me ROLL !

MEUAHHHH AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

HildebrandRarity, there's plenty of threads to discuss the quality of CR and QOS, please, stick to the topic.

[HildebrandRarity]

People can roll their eyes till the cows come home but, to me, Q0S is better than CR.

OK, I need at least Spinal Tap band speakers so that everyone can hear me ROLL !

MEUAHHHH AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

HildebrandRarity, there's plenty of threads to discuss the quality of CR and QOS, please, stick to the topic.

I HAVE stuck to the topic. marktmurphy and I have had a civil debate.

But i'm gettting weary of battle.

I'm done with this thread.

[HH007]

Bond tendered his resignation but that doesn't mean it couldn't be reversed. It also doesn't mean he couldn't be "useful" to them in "another" way. His mind doesn't get wiped clean as soon as he hits <send> on his lap top in the Gulf Of Venice.

If you assume that the 'organization' would simply take its lumps and 'let it go' or "cut its losses", then i've got an ocean-front condo in Nevada for sale (on-line only) for you.

But that doesn't alter the fact that Bond had killed everyone- Vesper was free to go. They couldn't get her even if she hadn't committed suicide.

What are you talking about? Bond had not killed all the bad guys. Quantum is a terrorist network with members the world over. He killed the guys in Venice at that moment, but there are a lot more where that came from. It's evident from QoS that he obviously did NOT kill all the bad guys. How you could have missed that is beyond me.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

... But there's still an important question that doesn't have answer yet.

Vesper already had decided to commit suicide in the minute that she left the message for Bond in the cel phone, and thus she even wanted to be followed by Bond to her meeting with Gettler (remember that she stop to look back in the middle of the road to the venetian palazzo)??

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 11 December 2008 - 01:41 AM.

[Santa]

... But there's still an important question that doesn't have answer yet.

Vesper already had decided to commit suicide in the minute that she left the message for Bond in the cel phone, and thus she even wanted to be followed by Bond to her meeting with Gettler (remember that she stop to look back in the middle of the road to the venetian palazzo)??

I don't understand why you think that. It seems to me she sent that message out of general trepidation about what she was about to do. It's obvious it wasn't going to end well, one way or another, but she felt she needed to try and do the right thing by saving Yusef's life and at least try and extricate herself from the whole nasty situation. However, that was unlikely to happen so I would say she left the message for Bond as a gesture to show she didn't want to betray him and their country, so now she wants to help him catch the baddies. I think the look back was due to that sense of someone behind you get, not necessarily that she knew he'd be there. I think maybe she sent the message as an insurance, so that if she were killed/dumped by Bond then at least she'd left him a clue to the baddies, rather than with the expectation that he'd come chasing after her. It didn't work out that way.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Bond tendered his resignation but that doesn't mean it couldn't be reversed. It also doesn't mean he couldn't be "useful" to them in "another" way. His mind doesn't get wiped clean as soon as he hits <send> on his lap top in the Gulf Of Venice.

If you assume that the 'organization' would simply take its lumps and 'let it go' or "cut its losses", then i've got an ocean-front condo in Nevada for sale (on-line only) for you.

But that doesn't alter the fact that Bond had killed everyone- Vesper was free to go. They couldn't get her even if she hadn't committed suicide.

What are you talking about? Bond had not killed all the bad guys. Quantum is a terrorist network with members the world over. He killed the guys in Venice at that moment, but there are a lot more where that came from. It's evident from QoS that he obviously did NOT kill all the bad guys.

Very true; the number of guys seemingly hanging around Mr. White's place in Alfa-Romeos after Bond kidnaps him is pretty indicative of that...

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

... But there's still an important question that doesn't have answer yet.

Vesper already had decided to commit suicide in the minute that she left the message for Bond in the cel phone, and thus she even wanted to be followed by Bond to her meeting with Gettler (remember that she stop to look back in the middle of the road to the venetian palazzo)??

I don't understand why you think that. It seems to me she sent that message out of general trepidation about what she was about to do. It's obvious it wasn't going to end well, one way or another, but she felt she needed to try and do the right thing by saving Yusef's life and at least try and extricate herself from the whole nasty situation. However, that was unlikely to happen so I would say she left the message for Bond as a gesture to show she didn't want to betray him and their country, so now she wants to help him catch the baddies. I think the look back was due to that sense of someone behind you get, not necessarily that she knew he'd be there. I think maybe she sent the message as an insurance, so that if she were killed/dumped by Bond then at least she'd left him a clue to the baddies, rather than with the expectation that he'd come chasing after her. It didn't work out that way.

However, I think Vesper was decided to commit suicide in any case, that's the only way to explain why she left the message with Mr. White phone for Bond, along with her own cel phone which contained Gettler message, I believe that was a sort of implicit confession of her betrayal. Otherwise, if her intention was that Bond never found out about her colaboration for the Organization, she couldn't have explained to OO7, after her (supposedly) secret meeting with Gettler, the content of her message already sent to him.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 18 December 2008 - 06:28 AM.

[Matt_13]

Wait...she's dead?

[Willowhugger]

Weird, everyone has interpreted this line completely different from me.

M is trying to make Bond feel better that he failed to save her. In fact, M is saying that Vesper knew she was going to her death because either Quantum would kill her (M is wrong about this because she assumes she's dealing with a regular terrorist/criminal organization than one with the audacity to blackmail world governments) or Vesper would commit suicide because of her betrayal (she did).

In fact, Vesper knew she couldn't go back. People who think Bond would have forgiven her are wrong. Bond would have coldly sent her along to spend the rest of her life in Prison for betraying him and betraying her country. The fact she did it because of Yusef wouldn't repair the fact that she assisted Chirrfe and got him tortured, got MATHIS tortured, and pretty much assisted a terrorist organization.

There's no happy ending ahead and Vesper is suicidal because she's fallen in love with Bond and can't live with what she's done.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

I think maybe she sent the message as an insurance, so that if she were killed/dumped by Bond then at least she'd left him a clue to the baddies, rather than with the expectation that he'd come chasing after her. It didn't work out that way.

However, I think Vesper was decided to commit suicide in any case, that's the only way to explain why she left the message with Mr. White phone for Bond, along with her own cel phone which contained Gettler message, I believe that was a sort of implicit confession of her betrayal. Otherwise, if her intention was that Bond never found out about her colaboration for the Organization, she couldn't have explained to OO7, after her (supposedly) secret meeting with Gettler, the content of her message already sent to him.

I even see the content of the message that Vesper sent to Bond with Mr. White's phone number along with leave her own cel phone supposedly by accident in the room with OO7, as a reflection/adaptation of the Vesper's letter from the novel.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 18 December 2008 - 11:26 PM.