70 replies to this topic

[Pierce - Daniel]

Everyone keeps saying that she died for him, that if she didn't kill herself then Bond would have died as well. What? How does that work, Vesper was trapped in the lift, she had betrayed Bond and handed the money over to Gettler who in turn would give it to Mr. White. To me it looked as though she was trying to save Yusef's skin. So....how did she die for him? Why did White say he would have had Bond aswell? Are they referring to the torture scene?

[00Twelve]

Vesper couldn't have simply run from Quantum or left them-- as M said, "She must have known she was going to her death." If she'd tried to escape them, they'd have killed her for knowing even the little bit that she knew about them. Furthermore, had she run with Bond, they'd have killed him for his association with someone who knew secrets about Quantum and for ruining the Montenegro operation.

White was referring to how Bond would have followed Vesper to the ends of the earth. And there's reason to believe this could be true-- even after her betrayal he desperately tries to save her and is devastated by her suicide.

[Pierce - Daniel]

Hmmmmmmmmmm....not convinced, why did she know she was going to die, the deal was if she got them the money she and Bond would live, she was handing over the money and Quantum looked like they were going to let her and Bond walk away, it's only when Bond reveild himself does she get kidnapped.

[00Twelve]

Sorry you weren't convinced. I didn't have a problem.

All I can say is, watch CR again and pay close attention to M & Bond's conversation.

Quantum didn't look especially like they were going to let her walk; Gettler saw Bond and freaked out just after she handed over the money. In any case, since Yusef was a Quantum agent anyway, she wasn't going to be simply reunited with him and go on happily.

Neither was she going to be able to go off with Bond and live happily. Bond knew about her betrayal and would have never just let Quantum walk away with the Montenegro winnings and the knowledge that Vesper played MI6 to let that happen. And since he wouldn't have let that drop, Quantum would have eliminated him.

Like I said, pay attention to M & Bond's conversation.

[HH007]

I agree with 00Twelve. Quantum is such a secret organization that, as Mr. White said, MI6 didn't even know they existed. Taking that into account, there's no way they would've let Vesper walk after she handed over the money.

[FlemingBond]

She committed suicide after Bond dispateched the villains . I don't see how she died for him. In the novel it seemed she killed herself because she couldn't face him. Of course i don't know what their intention was for the movie, because they have trouble sticking with Fleming.

[HH007]

She committed suicide after Bond dispateched the villains . I don't see how she died for him. In the novel it seemed she killed herself because she couldn't face him. Of course i don't know what their intention was for the movie, because they have trouble sticking with Fleming.

I think the reason for her suicide in the movie was the same as in the book, she couldn't face Bond after her betrayal became known to him.

[Joe Bond]

She committed suicide after Bond dispateched the villains . I don't see how she died for him. In the novel it seemed she killed herself because she couldn't face him. Of course i don't know what their intention was for the movie, because they have trouble sticking with Fleming.

I think the reason for her suicide in the movie was the same as in the book, she couldn't face Bond after her betrayal became known to him.

And the fact that if they did leave they could never escape the reach of Quantum and she knew that they would find them and kill them eventually and she couldn't put Bond in danger so she killed herself so Quantum would not kill Bond.

[00Twelve]

She committed suicide after Bond dispateched the villains . I don't see how she died for him. In the novel it seemed she killed herself because she couldn't face him. Of course i don't know what their intention was for the movie, because they have trouble sticking with Fleming.

She committed suicide after Bond dispateched the villains . I don't see how she died for him. In the novel it seemed she killed herself because she couldn't face him. Of course i don't know what their intention was for the movie, because they have trouble sticking with Fleming.

I think the reason for her suicide in the movie was the same as in the book, she couldn't face Bond after her betrayal became known to him.

Yes, she did kill herself because of her shame over betraying Bond. The movie just raised the stakes from the novel. In the movie, her suicide also had the positive effect of keeping Bond from being targeted by Quantum. Unlike SMERSH, Quantum's not a political organization and since Bond was left with no info about them (they didn't know about Vesper's text message to him), he was no longer an immediate threat. But, as we know about this Bond, he doesn't let things drop.

Had Vesper not killed herself, what else would she have done? Running with Bond wouldn't work. Running back to MI6 wouldn't work. Running back to Yusef wouldn't work. Who sees another option for Vesper? I sure don't. Add in to that the fact that she'd legitimately fallen for Bond and didn't want him caught up in the mess she was in with Quantum. Maybe just me, but I didn't find it too hard to get.

[double o ego]

Everyone keeps saying that she died for him, that if she didn't kill herself then Bond would have died as well. What? How does that work, Vesper was trapped in the lift, she had betrayed Bond and handed the money over to Gettler who in turn would give it to Mr. White. To me it looked as though she was trying to save Yusef's skin. So....how did she die for him? Why did White say he would have had Bond aswell? Are they referring to the torture scene?

Had vesper lived, she'd be alive because Quantum would have kept her alive and then she'd be forced to do to Bond what Yusef did to her. They knew Bond would do anything for vesper and that's why the comment was made.

[Pierce - Daniel]

I huess Vesper could well be described as an agent for Quantum, or at least during CR she was working for them. But....here's where I'm lost, you lot seem sure that with her dead Quantum wouldn't go after Bond, read Joe Bond's comment. Surely a far flung organizstion like Quantum would still go after Bond, after all he's only one man and they can just pick him off with no probelm, I understand how why she committed suicide, that's very clear she had committed the ultimate betrayal and there was no going back for either her or Bond, but I don't understand why her suicide saved Bond's life. Mathis seems convinced that she died to save Bond and White says that if she didn't kill herself sthey would have gone for Bond as well. Why didn't they just go for him anyway? How did she save him?

[00Twelve]

Everyone keeps saying that she died for him, that if she didn't kill herself then Bond would have died as well. What? How does that work, Vesper was trapped in the lift, she had betrayed Bond and handed the money over to Gettler who in turn would give it to Mr. White. To me it looked as though she was trying to save Yusef's skin. So....how did she die for him? Why did White say he would have had Bond aswell? Are they referring to the torture scene?

Had vesper lived, she'd be alive because Quantum would have kept her alive and then she'd be forced to do to Bond what Yusef did to her. They knew Bond would do anything for vesper and that's why the comment was made.

Amazing how I can go on for paragraphs without saying exactly what you just said so well. Right on, ego.

[double o ego]

Hmmmmmmmmmm....not convinced, why did she know she was going to die, the deal was if she got them the money she and Bond would live, she was handing over the money and Quantum looked like they were going to let her and Bond walk away, it's only when Bond reveild himself does she get kidnapped.

Vesper isn't heartless. She was still going to save Yusef by delivering the money but she had every intention of returning into the arms of Bond. At least he was safer to be with and could handle him self more so than her boyfriend held hostage. However, when things turned sour and she knew Bond had figured out that she had betrayed him, her love for him brought about an overwhelming sense of guilt which forced her to kill herself for decieving the man she now came to love.

Edited by double o ego, 28 November 2008 - 09:15 PM.

[Captain Tightpants]

Everyone keeps saying that she died for him, that if she didn't kill herself then Bond would have died as well. What? How does that work, Vesper was trapped in the lift, she had betrayed Bond and handed the money over to Gettler who in turn would give it to Mr. White. To me it looked as though she was trying to save Yusef's skin. So....how did she die for him? Why did White say he would have had Bond aswell? Are they referring to the torture scene?

While Bond only began to realise that there was something much bigger going on during the torture scene in CASINO ROYALE, Vesper understood this much earlier, and I think she eventually realised that they were using her to get a hold on Bond. Vesper knew she had been set up with Yusuf, which is why she made the deal with Mr. White: he didn't realise she was actually quite aware of what was going on. She gave him the two things he wanted - Bond and the money - but didn't realise he was walking into a trap.

Vesper killed herself for a good reason: because Bond would have followed her anywhere. Whether she genuinely returned his feelings is unclear - and unimportant - but she also knew that he was the only one who could stand a chance against Quantum. As long as she was alive, there was a way for Quantum to get to Bond, so she killed herself not out of the shame of betraying Bond, but because doing so would mean Quantum could never touch him, and Bond would be in a position to take them down and he would be loaded with motive. Vesper died for Bond because doing so meant Bond would be able to do what was right.

[double o ego]

I huess Vesper could well be described as an agent for Quantum, or at least during CR she was working for them. But....here's where I'm lost, you lot seem sure that with her dead Quantum wouldn't go after Bond, read Joe Bond's comment. Surely a far flung organizstion like Quantum would still go after Bond, after all he's only one man and they can just pick him off with no probelm, I understand how why she committed suicide, that's very clear she had committed the ultimate betrayal and there was no going back for either her or Bond, but I don't understand why her suicide saved Bond's life. Mathis seems convinced that she died to save Bond and White says that if she didn't kill herself sthey would have gone for Bond as well. Why didn't they just go for him anyway? How did she save him?

Vesper would have been in full contact with Quantum, while she was with Bond. That being said, with Bond being so close to her, Quantum would have killed him, just to get rid of any potential leaks of their existence. Also, Bond was also saved from having to be put i the same situation Vesper was put into. With vesper alive, Quantum could fabricate some scheme or genuinely put her in danger and use Bond to give them what they want in order to save Vesper. Unfortunately, Vesper wasn't so lucky in this department with the whole Yusef thing. Vesper saved Bond from the same fate and in turn, Bond Saved Corrine (the canadian agent)from it too. Hope that helps.

Oh and thanks 00twelve.

[Pierce - Daniel]

Hmmmm....
But Vesper loved James, that is clear from CR she was willing to forget Yusef and leave him behind, but argreed with Quantum that if she gave them the money they let Yusef go, but if they killed Bond they wouldn't get the money. Vesper thought she could get the best of both worlds save her ex and keep Bond from harm in exchange for the money.

From now on let the dissucssion steer clear of Vesper's actual death and her reasons for the sucided we're all getting a little caught up in it.

The question is why did Vesper's death save Bond. From your coments, the general idea I get is that she kew too much about Quantum and would spill the beans to Bond or any other mi6 agent she had met during the Casino Royale affair, but...after she kills herself it seems as though Quantum and White have wiped the slate clean and have argreed not to go after Bond, as they would have kiled him if Vesper hadn't killed herself as White said in QOS. The question is, if that was the reason, why didn't they go after Bond instead of Bond tracking down Mr. White?

[honeyjes]

If you want to stay under the radar, you wouldn't be killing 00s. Plus part of their repetoitoire is manipulation and exploitation, how great would it be to have someone like Bond on your payroll, Vesper's relationship with Bond compromises him.

You can look at things from Vespers, Bonds, Quantum, MI6 and the CIAs POV and each players action, inaction, reaction and motivation will dictate the next chain of events. We are looking at things retrospectively and not in the moment so trying to tie things up neatly may not be possible.

[byline]

She committed suicide after Bond dispateched the villains . I don't see how she died for him. In the novel it seemed she killed herself because she couldn't face him. Of course i don't know what their intention was for the movie, because they have trouble sticking with Fleming.

I think the reason for her suicide in the movie was the same as in the book, she couldn't face Bond after her betrayal became known to him.

The film took several departures from the book in terms of Vesper. For one thing, in the book, Vesper was an MI6 agent, whereas in the film, she was a treasury agent. So I think they gave the film Vesper slightly different motivations from the book Vesper.

The first point at which Vesper saves Bond's life (and her own) is in the torture chamber, when she makes a deal with White to get the money (and that's another departure from the book). As others have noted (including M), Vesper knew that once she handed over the money, Quantum would never let her live. She feared that Bond would try to protect her -- and she was right -- so to avoid putting him in that situation, she seized the opportunity she had in the elevator by locking it, thus ensuring that Bond couldn't rescue her.

The film Vesper was placed in an impossible situation. While still a flawed character, she struck me as being more noble than the book Vesper. She sacrificed her life in an effort to save both her boyfriend and Bond, unaware that her sacrifice was wasted on Yusef.

Edited by byline, 29 November 2008 - 05:16 AM.

[00Twelve]

Hmmmm....
But Vesper loved James, that is clear from CR she was willing to forget Yusef and leave him behind, but argreed with Quantum that if she gave them the money they let Yusef go, but if they killed Bond they wouldn't get the money. Vesper thought she could get the best of both worlds save her ex and keep Bond from harm in exchange for the money.

From now on let the dissucssion steer clear of Vesper's actual death and her reasons for the sucided we're all getting a little caught up in it.

The question is why did Vesper's death save Bond. From your coments, the general idea I get is that she kew too much about Quantum and would spill the beans to Bond or any other mi6 agent she had met during the Casino Royale affair, but...after she kills herself it seems as though Quantum and White have wiped the slate clean and have argreed not to go after Bond, as they would have kiled him if Vesper hadn't killed herself as White said in QOS. The question is, if that was the reason, why didn't they go after Bond instead of Bond tracking down Mr. White?

Because they didn't know she'd given Bond White's cell # and had no reason to think he would know anything about them. If he did, it would mean that she'd told him, which would mean that he'd have already known about her connection to them, which clearly wasn't the case.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Well, regarding strictly to what M said about Vesper's death, as an explanation to OO7 (and as an epilogue): "She hoped that they let her live, but she knew that she was going to her death".

I believe it means that Vesper hoped that that organization stopped the extortion against her (hence let her live peaceful), after having delivered the money to them. But after experience being again taken as hostage, this time in the venetian palazzo and considering that Bond doesn't break with extortion (as he proved with Le Chiffre's torture, even knowing that Vesper was supossedly suffering torture at the same time), she got to the certenty that sooner or later she was going to be killed by Quantum.

Thus committing suicide, was the only way she had of relieving Bond from the guilt and suffer, of sentence her to this death.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 29 November 2008 - 10:39 PM.

[CM007]

Also while Bond is being tortured the person they were actually torturing was Le Chiffre´s Girlfriend and not Vesper to give Bond the impression that they were torturing Vesper.

Edited by CM007, 29 November 2008 - 11:10 AM.

[Pierce - Daniel]

Thanks for all your replys but your all avoiding the answer to my questions. Why did Vesper's death save Bond's life? Thant's all I want to know.

[SomeBloke]

In short, if she hadn't died, Bond would have been targeted by Quantum.

[British Chap]

Also while Bond is being tortured the person they were actually torturing was Le Chiffre´s Girlfriend and not Vesper to give Bond the impression that they were torturing Vesper.

What? Where do you get that?

[00Twelve]

Also while Bond is being tortured the person they were actually torturing was Le Chiffre´s Girlfriend and not Vesper to give Bond the impression that they were torturing Vesper.

What? Where do you get that?

Yeah, there's really nothing to base that on.

The only time Valenka screams is *just* before White's first silenced gunshot.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Thanks for all your replys but your all avoiding the answer to my questions. Why did Vesper's death save Bond's life? Thant's all I want to know.

No one said that, in QOS the one thing they affirm about Vesper is that she died for Bond, but nobody implies with this, that she directly saved OO7's life.

And the meaning of "Vesper died for you" as I posted earlier, I believe is this: after experience being again taken as hostage, this time in the venetian palazzo and considering that Bond doesn't break with extortion (as he proved with Le Chiffre's torture, even knowing that Vesper was supossedly suffering torture at the same time), Vesper got to the certenty that sooner or later she was going to be killed by Quantum.

Thus committing suicide, was the only way she had of relieving Bond from the guilt and suffer, of sentence her to this death.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

In short, if she hadn't died, Bond would have been targeted by Quantum.

In short, if she hadn't died, Vesper could have beeen kidnapped (or sort of) by the organization, and Bond while pursuing her, could be easily captured another time, just like in Montenegro.

That's why Vesper decided to commit suicide.

[sharpshooter]

Also while Bond is being tortured the person they were actually torturing was Le Chiffre´s Girlfriend and not Vesper to give Bond the impression that they were torturing Vesper.

Rubbish.

[Pierce - Daniel]

Why is MAthis certain that she died for him? Why does White say that if she was alive they would have had him aswell, there has to be a clear answer, so far this thread hasn't brokern any new water simply becasue, let's face it, no one knows the answer.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Why is MAthis certain that she died for him? Why does White say that if she was alive they would have had him aswell, there has to be a clear answer, so far this thread hasn't brokern any new water simply becasue, let's face it, no one knows the answer.

Oh, C'mon! I've already give the answers to your questions in my posts, if you don't want to read it (or believe it), that's your thing.

Not every detail needs to be explained in a movie. It's good enough that you can understand the core of the plot (and I don't have any problem with that in CR), the rest it's leaved for your own interpretation, based on the things that are explicited on the film.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 01 December 2008 - 09:39 PM.