40 replies to this topic

[Kristian]

I was reading the movie tie-in novel of TWINE, and there were some exchanges between Christmas Jones and Bond that were not in the film. For example, right after they escape the missile silo explosion and watch the transport plane fly off into the horizon and talk about the locator card, Christmas actually apologizes to Bond... "Hey, look, I'm sorry for blowing the whistle on you like that. I had no idea what was going down."

Does anyone know if this was the novelist's embellishment, or was it actually in the script and filmed? I always thought that they should have kept it in there. People complain about how underdeveloped Christmas was. But I think playing on her sense of responsibility for unwittingly helping Renard steal the warhead ("I Have to get it back or someone will have my ) would have deepened her as a character and softened her a little.

Anyone know if Christmas's role was whittled down, or if it was pretty much the way we saw it? And while I didn't like Denise Richards when the film came out, I have to say I have warmed to her. She's the spunky one compared to Sophie's seductive one, and M's steely one. Still, I wonder who else was in the running for the role of Christmas Jones.

So, two questions, fellow CBNers:

1. Anyone know if any of the scenes deleted from TWINE's running time (I hear it was over 20 minutes longer at one point) were of Christmas Jones?

2. Who else was in the running for the role of Christmas Jones?

Edited by Kristian, 14 September 2008 - 08:25 PM.

[DamnCoffee]

I think the Producers did the right thing by cutting them.
To answer your question, some scenes are usually trimmed due to timing issues.

[marygoodnight]

Anyone know if Christmas's role was whittled down, or if it was pretty much the way we saw it?
[/quote]

It should have been as you say to her role whittled down more in my opinion.one of the top 10 worst roles ever in a bond flick

[dinovelvet]

No I think Raymond Benson just added his own little touches, like the backstory of Renard. Actually he did that in all his novels - Carver, Renard, and Graves all got their own "origin" chapters.

[Kristian]

[/quote]

It should have been as you say to her role whittled down more in my opinion.one of the top 10 worst roles ever in a bond flick
[/quote]


I think that's a little harsh. What was wrong with a nuclear scientist who's tough, spunky, won't take crap from men, and can diffuse warheads? I think she actually had some smart lines. It's just people don't expect someone like Denise RIchards to be called "Doctor."

I thought she was certainly better than Halle Berry as JInx, and way better than Tanya Roberts.

[jaguar007]

I wish they would have whittled out more of her scenes, like all of them. If they had cut her out completely, TWINE may have had a chance on being a somewhat half way decent Bond film.

[JimmyBond]

I wish they would have whittled out more of her scenes, like all of them. If they had cut her out completely, TWINE may have had a chance on being a somewhat half way decent Bond film.

You beat me to it! I was more or less going to respond with the same.

In all seriousness though, I don't think the Producers were prepared to leave Bond alone at the end of the film during the Brosnan era.

[dodge]

This just in:

In the original draft, the lines actually read like this:

"I'm sorry for going down like that. I had no idea you'd whistle."

[trevanian]

We know that Spottiswoode was overruled on using Monica Bellucci for TND, and instead had to use Hatcher (not a problem for me), so there may have been a pattern of the studio attempting to shoe-horn at least one recognizable American actress into each film without regard for auditions.

I wasn't aware of the Bellucci thing, just that Sela Ward had been hired and then paid off when somebody insisted on casting Hatcher.

While Hatcher is okay, I think Sela Ward would have really put Brosnan on his game, but I guess maybe she looked too grown-up to be a bond girl?

[Simon]

It's odd, because with most Bond movies, even if it's years later, you get some sort of rumors as to who else they were interested in, but I've never heard of anybody else being up for Christmas, or Jinx (in DAD), and I'm wondering if it's because both actresses were American and considered to be well-enough established that the studio knew who they wanted right away and simply made an offer.

Salma Hayek was considered for Jinx.

What I did get from his opening commentary was something that i already knew: Maria had auditioned for Elektra, but her English was not good enough..

Maria who?

[Simon]

Cheers.

Maria who? As above.

[manfromjapan]

Hey guys, what are your sources for Sela Ward and Julia Brennemann being in line for the role of Paris? Can you post a link or tell me the magazine article or interview? Much appreciated!

[PrinceKamalKhan]

If I remember correctly, she was considered 'one German element too many' for the film and nixed. I don't think she really ever stood a chance, though. It seemed clear to me that after Goldeneye got the series back on its feet that MGM was wanting to pair Brosnan with more visible, established actresses and less of the unknown starlets that the series used to churn out. Of Brosnan's 6 leading ladies after Goldeneye (Yeoh, Hatcher, Richards, Marceau, Berry and Pike), only one was a complete unknown to me: Pike. Every other actress I'd heard of in some capacity, even if I hadn't seen their films.

Although I am a defender of Hatcher and Marceau(probably because I was big fan of both Lois & Clark and Mel Gibson's Braveheart), I'm glad EON has returned(for now, anyway) to the policy hiring lesser known actresses for the Bond girl roles. I'm so glad we didn't get someone like Angelina Jolie or Thandie Newton for the role of Vesper in CR.

[TheSaint]

Cheers.

Maria who? As above.

Maria Grazia Cucinotta, Cigar Girl.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I've read at least two drafts of TWINE, and in both versions the character was woefully underwritten. If it helps any, she was originally written to be French-Polynesian, so it would be interesting to know who Purvis and Wade might've had in mind when writing it. It's also clear from all versions and rewrites that the creative energies were really put into making Elektra the femme fatale of the movie. I mean, Richards got *FOURTH BILLING* in the film and she's technically the lead Bond Girl, so it shows you how dispensable her character was viewed by just about everyone involved.

Excellent point. I've often said in TWINE, Elektra is truly the main bond girl much like Aki is arguably the main Bond girl in YOLT.

As I watched the film tonight, I thought about how it would have been much better if Bond and Jones *DIDN'T* have sex, but instead at the end Bond thanks Christmas for her help and tells her to go back to the U.S. and try and patch things up with her ex-boyfriend from college or something (in the movie Christmas hints that she may be in Azerbijian to avoid relationship questions/entaglements), but as someone else already mentioned, EON wasn't ready at that time to have a movie where Bond didn't get the trophy Bond Girl in the sack at the end. Christmas came very close to crossing over the line into Bibi Dahl territory.

Exactly. That's actually a good ending you came up with. And it would've been more plausible. Brings up a question I have: I've thought the 3 following Bond/Bond girl relationships(Bond/Christmas in TWINE, Bond/Melina in FYEO, Bond/Wai Lin in TND) all seemed like platonic friendships that ended with the usual "Bond gets the girl at the finale because the formula requires it even though there's been little or no romantic chemistry began the two of them" type endings.

Do you think FYEO and TND should have had similar endings where Bond and Melina/Wai Lin respectively part as friends a la Bond and Gala Brand in Fleming's Moonraker novel?

[Simon]

Cheers.
Maria who? As above.

Maria Grazia Cucinotta, Cigar Girl.

Ah, of course.

Many thanks.

[manfromjapan]

Thanks!

[Kristian]

Exactly. That's actually a good ending you came up with. And it would've been more plausible. Brings up a question I have: I've thought the 3 following Bond/Bond girl relationships(Bond/Christmas in TWINE, Bond/Melina in FYEO, Bond/Wai Lin in TND) all seemed like platonic friendships that ended with the usual "Bond gets the girl at the finale because the formula requires it even though there's been little or no romantic chemistry began the two of them" type endings.

Do you think FYEO and TND should have had similar endings where Bond and Melina/Wai Lin respectively part as friends a la Bond and Gala Brand in Fleming's Moonraker novel?

Well, I think the problem is exacerbated with Wai Lin because the script is so underdeveloped, as is their relationship, and with TWINE the age difference between Bond and Christmas is jarring, leading many people to start questioning the age discrepancies like they did between Moore and Bouquet in FYEO.

I don't have a straight answer for your question. I think it would've been better had Bond and Wai Lin at least attempted to get off the burning debris and out of the South China Sea before resuming their "relationship".

Every "ending" in the Brosnan films just killed me. They were the worst "endings" in the entire series. The lines about Christmas coming more than once a year, or Jinx telling Bond to "keep it in...it fits perfectly" are the stuff of letters sent to Penthouse Forum, and have no place in the Bond series.

I think the final scene can sometimes save a relationship, or at least get you to re-evaluate it somewhat. Had any of Brosnan's ending scenes been handled better, some of the relationships may have seemed a bit more plausible. Goldeneye had the better ending of Brosnan's movies, but I distinctly remember people in the audience looking at each other and whispering "Is that it?" when the credits began to roll. It was as if the audience was expecting something more finite and instead the film just sort of faded away.

With TND the ending scene seemed perfunctory. I mean, I know Bond has made love in outerspace so some burning, floating debris in the water isn't a stretch for him, but really, I thought we'd gotten past the Moonraker-type silliness by 1997. A far better ending for TND would've resemebled TERMINAL VELOCITY, where Bond would be in the audience of the Chinese government receiving some sort of award for his cooperation in helping to avoid a war.

The ending to TWINE probably should've been Bond and Christmas drinking champagne and watching the fireworks; it was more tasteful than the crass ending we got of Bond spreading Christmas' legs and entering her via R's heat signature recognition program on his laptop, and then making his corny pun.

The best endings, in my opinion, are:
# 1 The Living Daylights. It's totally consistent with the relationship between Bond and Kara. It's romantic and classy.

#2 Octopussy. Humorous without being stupid; and Octopussy is a beautiful, mature businesswoman and not some young nuclear scientist trying to find herself in Southwest Asia.

#3 On Her Majesty's Secret Service

#4 Never Say Never Again: loved Connery's little wink to the audience at the end.

#5 Diamonds Are Forever: true to the very end, Tiffany's thinking of the diamonds.

The worst:
#1-3 TND, TWINE, and DAD: it was either corny, juvenile sexual innuendo or completely ludicrous situations.

#4 A View To A Kill: Roger Moore rogering poor Tanya Roberts in the shower while dirty old man Q peeps in on them was atrocious.

Gravity, thanks for your mature and wise posts regarding Chrissy Jones. It's refreshing to read the inputs of someone that don't follow the oft-followed route of "let's-eviscerate-the-bitch!!!"

I remember watching TWINE the first time in 1999, and thinking not much of Denise Richards. I do liked how she responded "Avoiding those kinds of questions, just like you" when Bond asked her what she was doing in Kazakhstan. I got the impression that this was the setup for a payoff later on about Christmas' background. But it never came. I always got the sense that this exchange deepened her character a little. Agree with you completely about a platonic parting between her and Bond at the end.

Question: DId you read the drafts of TWINE where Christmas was French-Polynesian. Any differences between that draft and the final shooting script?

[Dekard77]

They were tossing a lot of names all over but the moment it was Denise Richards only. I remember that clearly. Had no memory of Sela Ward but knew Monicca Bellucci was Brosnan's choice in TND.
Its very ironic when you think cos Richards was famous for playing ball busters with Starship Troopers and Wild Things. The crowds went mad with her. But in the Bond film they made a big mistake with the wardrobe of Doctor Jones. You really can't take her seriously and the script overall is no under developed that everyone is out of place in that movie. AVTAK Rogs age was a problem but the characters are very interesting watch but in this film they spent a lot of money marketing the movie they forgot to keep the script to Bond world. Imagine that stupid caviar factory and the torture scene with Elektra?? Even for a Bond film it's too silly.
DAD and GE had zero chemistry at the end between Bond and leading lady. I hate the marines in the field scene and DAD it's just over exposing Berry's good body. That scene just felt wrong. Bring out ending like Thunderball or Moonraker anyday it works well for a Bond film. Naughty and Nice.

[Kristian]

They were tossing a lot of names all over but the moment it was Denise Richards only. I remember that clearly. Had no memory of Sela Ward but knew Monicca Bellucci was Brosnan's choice in TND.
Its very ironic when you think cos Richards was famous for playing ball busters with Starship Troopers and Wild Things. The crowds went mad with her. But in the Bond film they made a big mistake with the wardrobe of Doctor Jones. You really can't take her seriously and the script overall is no under developed that everyone is out of place in that movie. AVTAK Rogs age was a problem but the characters are very interesting watch but in this film they spent a lot of money marketing the movie they forgot to keep the script to Bond world. Imagine that stupid caviar factory and the torture scene with Elektra?? Even for a Bond film it's too silly.
DAD and GE had zero chemistry at the end between Bond and leading lady. I hate the marines in the field scene and DAD it's just over exposing Berry's good body. That scene just felt wrong. Bring out ending like Thunderball or Moonraker anyday it works well for a Bond film. Naughty and Nice.

I thought I read on these forums that Sophie Marceau was considered for the French-Polynesian version of Christmas Jones. At the time, I believe Sharon Stone was being pushed for Elektra. But Apted really liked Marceau for Elektra, and when they Americanized the role of Dr. Jones, he lobbied to have Sophie take the role of Elektra.

Regarding other contenders for Christmas Jones, if you looked hard enough on the net, you will see reports that Natasha HEnstridge was considered, as well (believe it or not) Victoria Beckham AKA Posh Spice! A friend also heard that they considered Carrie-Anne Moss, but she was already slated for THE MATRIX.

Personally, I think Carrie-Anne MOss should have been Christmas JOnes. Carrie Anne has that authoritative air about her, and you'd buy her as a nuclear physicist. I think they should have ditched the tank top and hot pants get-up, and outfitted Dr. Jones with a tight T-shirt and tight cargo pants instead. Still hot-looking, but professionally attired. Also, in reality, I'm sure the IDA (or IAEA in real life) would have strict rules about field attire. What Christmas was wearing in the movie would have been far too distracting to the male crew, especially considering the delicate work they have to do...

Would have been interesting to see Sophie as Christmas Jones, though. And maybe Elizabeth Hurley as Elektra?

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Here's an early script draft if anyone's interested-

http://www.universal...ripts/twine.pdf

[dinovelvet]

At some point between one of these drafts the "crane chase" got cut. The scene would've taken place immediately after Mr. Bullion began to run after leaving the bomb in the Turkish dye factory. The scene called for Bond to chase Bullion through Turkish baths, then on to the tops of moving trains in downtown Istanbul, and then for a moving crane to come smashing through somehow. It was cut for several reasons: they couldn't actually do much on-location film work in Istanbul because of security concerns, as well as money, and a deemphasis on too much action.

The action sequence in Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, in which the Terminatrix commandeers a huge crane seemed similar to what I read in the original drafts of the script.

I wonder if the Turkish bath scene was still in play right up until shooting - it made it into the TWINE videogame as a playable level. The crane chase just came off like the tank chase in GE with even more stuff getting smashed up - doesn't Bond use the wrecking ball to clear a path? Anyway, all silly stuff that wouldn't really have improved the film.

[Kristian]

Here's an early script draft if anyone's interested-

http://www.universal...ripts/twine.pdf

THanks, Prince. I did actually read this version.

The thing is, they could have easily beefed up CHristmas's backstory with a payoff from the scene where she says she avoiding questions about what her story is. I remember this created interest in me the very first time I saw TWINE. But we never found out what she was running from. Gravity's nice suggestions about a coda wherein Bond encourages Christmas to face what she's hiding from would have been a meaningful ending. I thought that cheap "X-mas comes once a year" quip cheapened everything that came before.

Also, I read an interview with Bruce Feirstein wherein he stated that he wanted an ending where Elektra doesn' die, but rather gets knocked out and subdued by Bond, and guarded by M. Then Bond goes after Renard and Christmas. Later, with the disaster averted, Bond goes to visit Elektra in an insane asylum. It was supposed to be an ending similar to X-MEN when Xavier visited Magneto. Plus, it would've left the door open for Elektra to return. There actually, I think, would've been a platonic parting with CHristmas after this. THAT would have been a much better movie.

Do you guys think this type of ending - with ELektra suviving and visited by Bond in an insane asylum would have been better?

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Here's an early script draft if anyone's interested-

http://www.universal...ripts/twine.pdf

THanks, Prince. I did actually read this version.

The thing is, they could have easily beefed up CHristmas's backstory with a payoff from the scene where she says she avoiding questions about what her story is. I remember this created interest in me the very first time I saw TWINE. But we never found out what she was running from. Gravity's nice suggestions about a coda wherein Bond encourages Christmas to face what she's hiding from would have been a meaningful ending. I thought that cheap "X-mas comes once a year" quip cheapened everything that came before.

Also, I read an interview with Bruce Feirstein wherein he stated that he wanted an ending where Elektra doesn' die, but rather gets knocked out and subdued by Bond, and guarded by M. Then Bond goes after Renard and Christmas. Later, with the disaster averted, Bond goes to visit Elektra in an insane asylum. It was supposed to be an ending similar to X-MEN when Xavier visited Magneto. Plus, it would've left the door open for Elektra to return. There actually, I think, would've been a platonic parting with CHristmas after this. THAT would have been a much better movie.

Do you guys think this type of ending - with ELektra suviving and visited by Bond in an insane asylum would have been better?

Possibly. At least it would've been different. However, I never thought Brosnan did as well with the dramatic side of the character. Perhaps if Dalton or Craig were in The World is not Enough that sort of ending might've worked better. The downside to the Elektra-in-the-asylum bit is that it does suffer from seeming to add to the soap-operish elements of the film. With Casino Royale, EON has showed they are capable of providing intelligent, adult, serious Bond films and this has really caused The World is not Enough with its odd mixture of soap operatic histrionics and Moore-era type comedy go down for me in retrospect.

[Kristian]

Also, I read an interview with Bruce Feirstein wherein he stated that he wanted an ending where Elektra doesn' die, but rather gets knocked out and subdued by Bond, and guarded by M. Then Bond goes after Renard and Christmas. Later, with the disaster averted, Bond goes to visit Elektra in an insane asylum. It was supposed to be an ending similar to X-MEN when Xavier visited Magneto. Plus, it would've left the door open for Elektra to return. There actually, I think, would've been a platonic parting with CHristmas after this. THAT would have been a much better movie.

Do you guys think this type of ending - with ELektra suviving and visited by Bond in an insane asylum would have been better?

I disagree. I think putting her in an insane asylum somehow makes her less of a villain because you're chalking up all her problems to mental instability, rather than just being a person who chose to be evil. She's a much more fascinating woman the way she was portrayed on screen. Yes, there's some slight delusionment with her, but all villains have to be deluded to believe in their own plans.

Marceau knocks it out of the park as Elecktra. When she tells M "I just couldn't let it blow up with the rest of him"...that was gold. When she's laughing as Bond chases her up the maiden's tower...fantastic. The look of a sad, little girl lost when she tells M :"Your people? Your people will leave you here to rot and die like you left me." Excellent work by Sophie. The scene where M slaps Elecktra...awesomen. Carlyle, Marceau and Dench really move this picture along. It's a pleasure to watch their performances as they chew the scenery.

I think I could've imagined Craig leaning over Eleckta's dead body and kissing her (or Paris' for that matter) a bit better than Brosnan did.

Yeah, I think TWINE would have been a great DANIEL CRAIG Bond. Obviously, a lot of the humor would have to be reduced a little, and Christmas Jones's role would have to be expanded a little, or at least given a payoff for the "Avoiding those kinds of questions - just like you" scene. Oh, and as merely okay as Denise Richards was, I would suggest that they cast someone like Shannyn Sossamon or Maggie Q this time.

[Zorin Industries]

No - not MORE Denise Richards!!!

Yes - she wasn't the first choice. The original part was a Malaysian insurance investigator working for Lloyds to be played (or at least earmarked for) Thandie Newton. But the part was rewritten as Brosnan's THE THOMAS CROWN AFFAIR had recently been released and seen Pierce cavorting with Rene Russo's insurance investigator....

I think!

[Dekard77]

I think the ending would not have worked well because the sub fite scenes really don't give the film a true impact. Brosnan's role is useless as the under developed script doesn't allow him to stretch that much. The opening scenes work very well but the moment Bond, Electra and Renard board the film everything is downhill.
No story and no tension and it's sad cos I loved Marceau until I saw her in that movie.
I think Micheal Apted is not a director for this sort of movie.
Killing off Electra was a good idea and the love scene is abit forced and the audience did expect it as they they all wanted to see Denise Richards in bed.
She plays ball busters very well but this film ruined her career.

[Harmsway]

Marceau knocks it out of the park as Elecktra.

We're entirely at odds on this one, GS. I not only think that Marceau's performance is the worst thing about TWINE, I think it's the worst Bond girl performance in Bond history.

I think I could've imagined Craig leaning over Eleckta's dead body and kissing her (or Paris' for that matter) a bit better than Brosnan did.

I can't see it. Craig's Bond wouldn't lean over the body of someone who was torturing him seconds before. He would have shot her, and that would have been it. If Elektra had been less villainous, and their romantic relationship was better established than it was in the finished film, maybe then I could see Craig leaning over her. But as she was presented? Nah. He would have been as cold as ice.

[Mister E]

I have always found Elektra King far too silly to be taken even remotely seriously.

[Mr_Wint]

Marceau knocks it out of the park as Elecktra.

Agree The best Bond woman since Maud Adams.